MMA vs TMA

[Dinkydoo]

Yes, but self defense isn't always about fighting. Kung Fu can get someone in shape, improve their attitude, and enhance their awareness. Nothing wrong with that. When it comes to defending them from a sociopath, I have my doubts. I've really seen nothing thus far that has changed that opinion.

So you're basically saying that its not fit for its main purpose...

Fair point. I simply think there's more practical ways to utilize that energy and power.

There is for me too, but for someone who's an excellent kicker, a high, accurate, powerful kick can end a conflict within seconds.

Plum Blossum Academy isn't a Bjj school. Its a Kung Fu school that has added Bjj to their curriculum for self defense purposes. You can look up their association. They have academies all over the US, and they're all Kung Fu based. Are you trying to disown them as a Kung Fu school because their sparring was lackluster? Honestly, its par the course for most Kung Fu schools I've seen.

Nope, you're getting confused with the Choy Li Fut Plum Blossom schools. This particular club do a mixture of dubious Taijiquan, Sanda and BJJ - here is their actual website:

http://noreastermartialarts.com/aboutus.html

You'll be unhappy to know that they are a not a TMA school. It is clear from their website that they are a modern school creating their own hybrid training based on combining applications from Paying Mantis set forms, BJJ and Kickboxing.

Aside from that, all of the people who you were laughing at sparring were ALL wearing GIs and BJJ style belts - how's that for irony.

Lets just allow that to sink in.......

A modern club was using techniques taken from traditional styles to improve their fighting skills.

That first vid was pretty lackluster. Reminded me of an Olympic TKD match with a couple of punches thrown in. Again, I'm not seeing the point of all those forms, weapons, etc. if at the end the only thing you're going to be doing is looking like a sloppy kickboxer.

I didn't see any sloppy kickboxing in the first video...

I don't know what the scoring criteria was based on but I'm guessing it was on technical ability rather than being able to kick the crap out of the opposition.

As for Sanda/Sanshou;


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanshou

No wonder its effective.

I'll respond to the other comments soon.

It's based upon many techniques and principles that you'll find in traditional Kung Fu. It is very effective; and some Sanshou clubs train set forms too.

 

[Hanzou]

I doubt there's anything that WOULD change your opinion.

Well I've been hearing these same arguments for years, and a lot of these arguments were settled before we were born. There's a reason Judo supplanted classical Jujutsu in Japan for example, because the Judo guys wiped the floor with them. Not much has changed in the last hundred or so years. Judo/Bjj guys continue to wipe the floor with classical Jujitsu folks, so much so that you now see classical Jujitsu incorporating Judo/Bjj techniques into their arts.


That Praying Mantis academy that Dinky posted is another example of an originally classical art that has adopted Bjj in order to give themselves some street cred.

Lastly, as far as actually defending yourself from violence, Awareness, a good attitude, the ability to run like heck, and the confidence to suck it up and actually RUN, instead of displaying your manliness, is going to get you a heck of a lot more mileage than learning any sort of physical punching/kicking/grappling/whatever.

And if you can't run, you better know how to fight back and survive. Again I wouldn't recommend a TMA for that purpose, based on what I've seen out of them, and their antiquated training methods.

And finally, no, I don't think we really expected you to ever make the connection between forms and drills and sport fighting and actual fighting. Also, you and your forms! At my school, there is ONE specified forms class per week, out of 8 (sometimes 9) classes. And a fair portion of that "forms" class is often spent learning applications and practicing against an opponent, (yes, a resisting opponent). At beginner levels, yes, forms, at my school, are mostly taught and practiced as just patterns, until the patterns are well ingrained and clean. Then they stop being patterns, and start being technique repertoire. If you have, as you say, considerable TMA background, I would have thought you would have made it to a point where forms started to make sense to you.


To clarify: Forms are NOT for repeating, over and over, mindlessly. They are for practicing technique on it's own, to perfect it in the ideal, and then for testing it against resisting opponents, trying to, as closely as possible, approximate that ideal. Again, not that I expect you to change your beliefs.


Out of morbid curiosity, what WOULD convince you to consider changing your mind about traditional martial arts?

I know what forms are for. I understand their purpose. However, they seem pretty unnecessary in the grand scheme of things. Granted, if you're goal is to preserve the old arts, then I can understand why you'd be all for them. Does it make you a proficient fighter? I don't think so. You have guys performing beautiful forms, but it doesn't translate unto the fighting side of things.


What would convince me? Certain TMAs participating in NHB fights, testing their art against other arts. Like the Gracie's did back in the day.

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah it's like they hit each other over 200 times and still required a referee's decision to pick the winner - no wait, that was an MMA fight I saw once.

LoL! Could you imagine an MMA fighter taking on one those Kung Fu "masters" in the ring? Those poor old Chinese guys would get demolished completely. Heck, I could smack down both of those guys, and I didn't spend decades studying some forms.

That last vid from the 1950s is the pinnacle of Chinese Kung fu. Those were two traditionally trained masters going at it with their Kung Fu. That's about as real as it gets, and it looked completely pathetic.

So what should I believe? Some guys in a forum saying I haven't seen real TMA, or believe my own two eyes, and a pretty darn good example of TMA in a NHB situation?

 

[James Kovacich]

What would convince me? Certain TMAs participating in NHB fights, testing their art against other arts. Like the Gracie's did back in the day.

Plenty of TMA's were represented in the early UFC's and we know what Royce did...



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[James Kovacich]

That last vid from the 1950s is the pinnacle of Chinese Kung fu. Those were two traditionally trained masters going at it with their Kung Fu. That's about as real as it gets, and it looked completely pathetic.

1950's martial arts were no comparison to todays art.



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[ballen0351]

LoL! Could you imagine an MMA fighter taking on one those Kung Fu "masters" in the ring? Those poor old Chinese guys would get demolished completely. Heck, I could smack down both of those guys, and I didn't spend decades studying some forms.

So your bragging about your ability to beat up old men? Impressive:drink2tha
Heres an old guy that would give you a run for your money

 

[Dinkydoo]

That Praying Mantis academy that Dinky posted is another example of an originally classical art that has adopted Bjj in order to give themselves some street cred.





And if you can't run, you better know how to fight back and survive. Again I wouldn't recommend a TMA for that purpose, based on what I've seen out of them, and their antiquated training methods.

Eh, no. I can't let you get away with that. You're doing exactly the same thing that you were accusing me of; just because their sparring is crap you're trying to disown them as a modern club.

LOOK at their website - the one I posted (the one that actually pictures the folks from the YouTube video). Most pictures have guys wearing GIs and Japanese style belts, there is NO Mention of TMA lineage or even what style of Mantis or Taijiquan they are practicing. They openly admit to combining 'the way of the mantis' (read as a few Mantis applications and some basic principles) into their Sanda training which has been combined from their BJJ and Kickboxing. Absolutely no TMAist would consider these guys as traditional and it is about as far from traditional Kung Fu as you can get.

The Choy Li Fut school you mentioned has a similar name but does have a good reputation as a traditional Kung Fu association. You saw that they mentioned 'Self Defence Seminars' on their website and couldn't wait to inform me that they were introducing BJJ into their curriculum, which is just plain wrong. Plum Blossum do not teach any Mantis and they do not teach any BJJ; they are a traditional Choy Li Fut and Yang Taijiquan association.

This little mixup is representative of your attitude on this entire thread: you experience little things and immediately jump to a conclusion that fits your prejudices - usually making sweeping generalisations along the way ("kicking is I effective", "TMAs are ineffective).

I guess it really is true that 'none are so blind as those who are unwilling to see'.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Plenty of TMA's were represented in the early UFC's and we know what Royce did...



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And then he got so beaten up and exhausted that he could not continue by Kimo Leopoldo who had no martial arts training at all.

 

[RTKDCMB]

LoL! Could you imagine an MMA fighter taking on one those Kung Fu "masters" in the ring? Those poor old Chinese guys would get demolished completely. Heck, I could smack down both of those guys, and I didn't spend decades studying some forms.

That last vid from the 1950s is the pinnacle of Chinese Kung fu. Those were two traditionally trained masters going at it with their Kung Fu. That's about as real as it gets, and it looked completely pathetic.

So what should I believe? Some guys in a forum saying I haven't seen real TMA, or believe my own two eyes, and a pretty darn good example of TMA in a NHB situation?

That video of the Chinese masters was nowhere near a pretty darn good example of TMA in a NHB situation it was an absolutely terrible one. Just because it says they were masters in the title of the video does not mean they are. Posters on YouTube always throw out terms like 'master' and 'expert' willy nilly, kinda like you do with the term TMA.

I know what forms are for. I understand their purpose. However, they seem pretty unnecessary in the grand scheme of things.

That statement alone proves you do not.

 

[Hanzou]

Eh, no. I can't let you get away with that. You're doing exactly the same thing that you were accusing me of; just because their sparring is crap you're trying to disown them as a modern club.

LOOK at their website - the one I posted (the one that actually pictures the folks from the YouTube video). Most pictures have guys wearing GIs and Japanese style belts, there is NO Mention of TMA lineage or even what style of Mantis or Taijiquan they are practicing. They openly admit to combining 'the way of the mantis' (read as a few Mantis applications and some basic principles) into their Sanda training which has been combined from their BJJ and Kickboxing. Absolutely no TMAist would consider these guys as traditional and it is about as far from traditional Kung Fu as you can get.

http://noreastermartialarts.com/aboutus.html

The head instructor is a 6th degree black belt in Praying Mantis, an expert Level Instructor in Yang Tai Chi, Qi Gong, and the founder of the school. He's only a blue belt in Bjj. Blue belt is a step up from white belt. Which probably explains why there's a black belt Bjj instructor at the school. I wouldn't consider him a Bjj guy. He's definitely more CMA than anything else.

You're the one who brought this school up as an example of good Praying Mantis in the first place. Why are you trying to disown them now? Is it because I "exposed" them?

A vid from their graduation ceremony. Looks pretty traditional.

The Choy Li Fut school you mentioned has a similar name but does have a good reputation as a traditional Kung Fu association. You saw that they mentioned 'Self Defence Seminars' on their website and couldn't wait to inform me that they were introducing BJJ into their curriculum, which is just plain wrong. Plum Blossum do not teach any Mantis and they do not teach any BJJ; they are a traditional Choy Li Fut and Yang Taijiquan association.

They don't teach any Mantis?

 

[Koshiki]

I believe that's called a scissor leg takedown, I tried that once avery long time ago and accidentally hurt my training partner's knee. it could be useful if someone grabs your leg a certain way.

Not a scissor leg takedown. THOSE, I think most people can do reasonably well, with some practice. This is like, you take them down on their stomachs first. THEN, using your foot, you scoop up one ankle and place it in the pit of the other knee, then using your same foot, you scoop up that other leg and bend it up towards their back, leaning your weight down onto their crossed legs to immobilize them. It's the kind of stupid trick hold that's really more of a parlour joke. Most people I know can't do it well with a compliant uke, let alone a resisting opponent who doesn't know it's coming. Except for this one guy, who can really surprise you with it and immobilize you.

Going to show, that no matter how silly and impractical the technique, SOMEONE out there can make it work really well for them! But would I recomend it to anyone else. Good golly no!

Well I've been hearing these same arguments for years, and a lot of these arguments were settled before we were born.
....
And if you can't run, you better know how to fight back and survive. Again I wouldn't recommend a TMA for that purpose, based on what I've seen out of them, and their antiquated training methods.
...
What would convince me? Certain TMAs participating in NHB fights, testing their art against other arts. Like the Gracie's did back in the day.

Clearly they were NOT settled before we were born. If they had been, they would not be still continuing. They'd be, well, settled... Bit of a truism, that.

I agree that you had better know how to defend yourself in an actual fight. YOU, however, said that there was more to self-defense than fighting, and then went on to say that physical fitness, a good attitude, and awareness were not useful as self-defense. WHAT exactly, is not combat but IS self-defense, if not attitude, awareness, and fitness??? You're statements, not mine!

No holds barred is a wrestling term. I'm assuming, though, that you mean it in the vulgar sense of, "anything goes." The only place where anything goes is a third world street brawl. MMA is not anything goes. Which is the whole point. A large portion of many traditional martial arts consists of things which are Banned in the MMA game. There are lengthy lists of all the many "holds" (read: techniques) which are "barred" from MMA. Especially below the professional level. Do you fight professionally? Or, when testing your skills in public competition, must you follow amateur rules? A fight where I can't elbow to the head or do stomp kicks is NOT, in my humble opinion, "No holds Barred." It's, "all really dangerous techniques barred, our fighters would like to survive the game, thank you very much."

Not that you're likely to admit that, because, as we know, MMA is the most brutal, realistic depiction of combat possible.

That video of the Chinese masters was nowhere near a pretty darn good example of TMA in a NHB situation it was an absolutely terrible one. Just because it says they were masters in the title of the video does not mean they are. Posters on YouTube always throw out terms like 'master' and 'expert' willy nilly, kinda like you do with the term TMA.

The number of times I have been frustrated by the names of Youtube videos. I never realized how frequently, "Full contac Kung fu Master KO May Buran dethmatch REEEEL!!!" actually means something like, "Skinny teenagers in boxing gloves go until first owwy!!!!." Although, if Youtube is Hanzou's primary source for what "Traditional Martial Arts Mastery" looks like, then I can see where he's coming from.

 

[Hanzou]

That video of the Chinese masters was nowhere near a pretty darn good example of TMA in a NHB situation it was an absolutely terrible one. Just because it says they were masters in the title of the video does not mean they are. Posters on YouTube always throw out terms like 'master' and 'expert' willy nilly, kinda like you do with the term TMA.

You think a pair of nobodies could draw a crowd like that? They were both grandmasters. One was GM of White Crane, and the other was GM of Tai Chi, and their match took place in 1953.

I've seen this pattern among TMA types far too often. Dinky is trying to pull it with that Plum Blossum Mantis school, and you're doing it with these grandmasters. As soon as the curtain is pulled back, and the rubber meets the road, you guys disown anything that shows the TMAs lacking in effectiveness. If someone gets a beatdown, you immeadiately say "he wasn't a true exponent of his art!" As soon as a school is exposed, you say, "That school doesn't teach real (insert TMA style here)".

If you want to see true Bjj, I can provide numerous videos, tell you where you should go to train, and I'll happily stand behind it. That's kind of the difference; We have nothing to hide. We don't have any secret techniques that we won't show people. We don't hide behind a laundry list of forms and katas in order for you to get the "real art". Its all right there for you to see, touch, and experience for yourself.

Of course, that type of fighting is for everyone. Not everyone is okay with a big guy sweating all over you as he puts you in a choke hold. I understand that dancing around in a silk outfit, swinging a beautiful chinese sword is far more appealing for a LOT of people.

That statement alone proves you do not.

Even Bruce Lee said katas/forms were BS.

 

[James Kovacich]

And then he got so beaten up and exhausted that he could not continue by Kimo Leopoldo who had no martial arts training at all.

At the time Kimo claimed a 3rd degree in TKD as did Joe Son his partner. Whether or not they were, who knows but that is what they claimed. Royce did prove what they set out to prove. As far as that match, someone like Kimo was bound to come out and do as he did sooner or later. That does not take away from the fact the GJJ caught everyone by surprise. For several years after (and some still today) people claimed they didn't need to learn the ground game.

 

[Dinkydoo]

http://noreastermartialarts.com/aboutus.html

The head instructor is a 6th degree black belt in Praying Mantis, an expert Level Instructor in Yang Tai Chi, Qi Gong, and the founder of the school.

He can be 100th degree of secret Shaolin Black Grasshopper Kung Fu, but without a lineage or even a note of which style of Mantis he claims to train in, it means absolutely nothing. It is not a traditional school.

His Yang Taijiquan status - see above.

He's only a blue belt in Bjj. Blue belt is a step up from white belt. Which probably explains why there's a black belt Bjj instructor at the school. I wouldn't consider him a Bjj guy. He's definitely more CMA than anything else.

Ok, the founder claims to be a CMA guy, but the club isn't exactly what TMAists would consider traditional.

They don't seem to distinguish between Kung Fu and San Shou either:

"Praying Mantis style Kung Fu/San Shou is one of our core programs at Nor'easter Martial Arts and Fitness."

You're the one who brought this school up as an example of good Praying Mantis in the first place. Why are you trying to disown them now? Is it because I "exposed" them?

Oh behave. They're a modern club, training in a mixture of different things. The sparring was awful, everyone on the website is dressed in GIs but one of their videos did show a good application from the Seven Star Mantis set form Bung Bo, which was the point of my original post, if you'd care to re-read it. It wasn't to claim all BJJ was rubbish, or that BJJ could be improved by using Mantis or that this proves Praying Mantis is good - or even to belittle the club in question.

Your absolute desperation to trash TMAs in any way you can was what had lead to the discussion of what style this training belongs to and the facts are:

No lineage
Mixed Kung Fu/Sanda classes
BJJ
Everyone wearing GIs
No verification of martial achievements
No recognisable style of Mantis being taught - aside from bits from the first Seven Star set form.

A vid from their graduation ceremony. Looks pretty traditional.

*Cringe*

A modern club, doing Lion Dancing, military style training lines, bad quality of Black Sashes doing forms, people in GIs doing 'Kung Fu'.

Whole load of 'nope' from me.

They don't teach any Mantis?

This is the same club I presume?

They're not following the traditional Seven Star Praying Mantis syllabus - we don't have a "Seven Hands" set form - and if that's a Black sash..... Enough said.

Boxing Forms of the Mantis:

http://www.leekamwing.co.uk/formslist/forms_table.html

I don't think we need to attack this club's credibility any further (that was never my intention) but it is painfully obvious to anyone without the rose tinted spectacles on that this school isn't an example of a "Traditional" Martial Arts school.

Edit: I think the clue is in their Club's name - they're supposed to be doing Plum Blossom Praying Mantis. Which is pretty rare to find these days and even rarer to find as having a traditional lineage and syllabus (which is probably why they were doing applications from Seven Star).

Edit: Edit: As alluded to above: After searching online I cannot find ANY western Mantis clubs that claim to teach authentic Plum Blossom. Hmm....

 

[RTKDCMB]

You think a pair of nobodies could draw a crowd like that? They were both grandmasters. One was GM of White Crane, and the other was GM of Tai Chi, and their match took place in 1953.

Which you read off the video no doubt, it may be the grainy video but they looked a bit young to be grand masters to me. Crowds will gather whenever they see a fight, no mater who it is, advertise it and you will get larger crowds.

I've seen this pattern among TMA types far too often. Dinky is trying to pull it with that Plum Blossum Mantis school, and you're doing it with these grandmasters. As soon as the curtain is pulled back, and the rubber meets the road, you guys disown anything that shows the TMAs lacking in effectiveness. If someone gets a beatdown, you immeadiately say "he wasn't a true exponent of his art!" As soon as a school is exposed, you say, "That school doesn't teach real (insert TMA style here)".

Seriously? You pick the worst example you can find of two people who obviously are not very good at what they do just so that you can complain that TMA artists tell you that it is no good whilst expecting them to think it is.

I suppose the guy in the black shorts is not doing 'real MMA':

If you want to see true Bjj, I can provide numerous videos, tell you where you should go to train, and I'll happily stand behind it. That's kind of the difference; We have nothing to hide. We don't have any secret techniques that we won't show people. We don't hide behind a laundry list of forms and katas in order for you to get the "real art". Its all right there for you to see, touch, and experience for yourself.

We don't have any secret techniques either. BJJ people put out a lot of videos becaues they are always trying to convince everyone they have the ultimate style that can beat anything, you see it all the time.

Of course, that type of fighting is for everyone. Not everyone is okay with a big guy sweating all over you as he puts you in a choke hold. I understand that dancing around in a silk outfit, swinging a beautiful chinese sword is far more appealing for a LOT of people.

You mean like boxing - two men in silk shorts with no shirt fighting over a belt and a purse.

I have never done Kung Fu by the way.

Even Bruce Lee said katas/forms were BS.

And a great many masters have said otherwise. Bruce Lee was one of the greatest martial artists of all time and one of the people who inspired me to do martial arts in the first place but he was not the ultimate authority on all things.

 

[RTKDCMB]

At the time Kimo claimed a 3rd degree in TKD as did Joe Son his partner. Whether or not they were, who knows but that is what they claimed. Royce did prove what they set out to prove. As far as that match, someone like Kimo was bound to come out and do as he did sooner or later. That does not take away from the fact the GJJ caught everyone by surprise. For several years after (and some still today) people claimed they didn't need to learn the ground game.

Kimo had no prior martial arts experience apart from a few back yard street fights the promoters of the event 'gave' him a black belt to make him look better on paper (taken from a MMA website). AS for Joe Son - He was a disgrace to both the martial arts and to humanity in general who fought 4 professional fights and lost all of them. He claimed that he started his own style called Joe Son Do to which he was the only practitioner. He was then convicted of gang raping a woman at gun point (and with the gun) and then told her when they released her 'It's Christmas. This is your lucky day.' and got sent to prison. In prison he finally won a fight when he killed a convicted sex offender. BJJ did take people by surprise in the beginning, new things often do.

 

[Hanzou]

He can be 100th degree of secret Shaolin Black Grasshopper Kung Fu, but without a lineage or even a note of which style of Mantis he claims to train in, it means absolutely nothing. It is not a traditional school.

His Yang Taijiquan status - see above.

They were originally the Plum Blossum Academy. They recently changed their name when they added Bjj to their curriculum. Now they seem to be more MMA focused, and seem to view Bjj as the self defense system of the school while the Kung Fu stuff is utilized for other purposes.

Oh behave. They're a modern club, training in a mixture of different things. The sparring was awful, everyone on the website is dressed in GIs but one of their videos did show a good application from the Seven Star Mantis set form Bung Bo, which was the point of my original post, if you'd care to re-read it. It wasn't to claim all BJJ was rubbish, or that BJJ could be improved by using Mantis or that this proves Praying Mantis is good - or even to belittle the club in question.

Your absolute desperation to trash TMAs in any way you can was what had lead to the discussion of what style this training belongs to and the facts are:

No lineage
Mixed Kung Fu/Sanda classes
BJJ
Everyone wearing GIs
No verification of martial achievements
No recognisable style of Mantis being taught - aside from bits from the first Seven Star set form.

Seems like the typical TMA McDojo besides the Bjj. What's the problem?

*Cringe*

A modern club, doing Lion Dancing, military style training lines, bad quality of Black Sashes doing forms, people in GIs doing 'Kung Fu'.

Whole load of 'nope' from me.

So I take it that a "real" KF school wouldn't do these things?

This is the same club I presume?

They're not following the traditional Seven Star Praying Mantis syllabus - we don't have a "Seven Hands" set form - and if that's a Black sash..... Enough said.

Boxing Forms of the Mantis:

http://www.leekamwing.co.uk/formslist/forms_table.html

I don't think we need to attack this club's credibility any further (that was never my intention) but it is painfully obvious to anyone without the rose tinted spectacles on that this school isn't an example of a "Traditional" Martial Arts school.

Edit: I think the clue is in their Club's name - they're supposed to be doing Plum Blossom Praying Mantis. Which is pretty rare to find these days and even rarer to find as having a traditional lineage and syllabus (which is probably why they were doing applications from Seven Star).

Edit: Edit: As alluded to above: After searching online I cannot find ANY western Mantis clubs that claim to teach authentic Plum Blossom. Hmm....

You do understand that your post above proves my point right? A TMA school with shifty lineage and questionable skills is just par the course, and really shouldn't surprise anyone.

 

[Dinkydoo]

They were originally the Plum Blossum Academy. They recently changed their name when they added Bjj to their curriculum. Now they seem to be more MMA focused, and seem to view Bjj as the self defense system of the school while the Kung Fu stuff is utilized for other purposes.

I've no idea where you've derived this from.

"Now they seem to be more MMA focused, and seem to view Bjj as the self defense system of the school while the Kung Fu stuff is utilized for other purposes."

How could you possibly know that? So I guess this bad sparring can be attributed to MMA in general then...why should TMA get all the blame?

Seems like the typical TMA McDojo besides the Bjj. What's the problem?

Stop being petty.

It looks like a McDojo, not a "TMA McDojo" or a "MMA/BJJ/Sanda McDojo".

So I take it that a "real" KF school wouldn't do these things?

Lion Dancing: that's just a personal thing, some good traditional Kung Fu schools do it, I just think it should be kept separate from the martial arts taught in the west - hence my *cringe*

The other three points: probably not.

Poor looking black belts/sashes: good TMA schools should produce good quality black sashes - no exceptions.

GIs in Kung Fu: no TCMAs wear GIs. Either no uniform, or at least a suitable uniform. Its the same reason why a BJJ school training in silk pyjamas might have its authenticity questioned. We have a causal uniform and no sashes - which I personally favour.

Training in lines: sometimes, to drill a few techniques its worth it, but time is much better spent working with a partner. No one ever became a great fighter by simply punching and kicking the air.

Shouting "Yes sir to your teacher" (this is actually in the video): ridiculous. Show respect to students and teacher but its not the army, "Yes sir, no sir." Is too much for me.

One of these things (aside from the poor Black Sash students) can be accepted but when they start to add up, and the club is mixing classes and doesn't have a lineage we move away from the realms of TMA into modern schools that are trying to claim to be authentic, traditional martial arts schools when they are not.

You do understand that your post above proves my point right? A TMA school with shifty lineage and questionable skills is just par the course, and really shouldn't surprise anyone.

Maybe in 'Hanzou land', but in the real world this is exactly what proper TMA schools are trying to fight - bastardised, chop suey fighting systems with questionable history. Hopefully one day I will have the honour of passing on the traditional fighting style and training methods of my Seven Star lineage (although that is a long way away), but until then, I will continue to try to educate the ignorant on what true Kung Fu is in an attempt to stop clubs like this from further tarnishing our reputation.

Viva le resistance!!

*climbs down from soap box*

Sorry, I forgot which movie I was supposed to be in there

 

[Hanzou]

I've no idea where you've derived this from.

"Now they seem to be more MMA focused, and seem to view Bjj as the self defense system of the school while the Kung Fu stuff is utilized for other purposes."

How could you possibly know that? So I guess this bad sparring can be attributed to MMA in general then...why should TMA get all the blame?

A little clever google searching derived from the original Youtube video you posted. This is the original name of their studio;

http://www.yelp.com/biz/plum-blossom-tai-chi-kung-fu-academy-littleton

[h=1]The Plum Blossom Tai Chi and Kung Fu academy.[/h]If you check out the address and phone number, its the same. They just changed the name because I guess Bjj had a huge impact on the school.

Stop being petty.

It looks like a McDojo, not a "TMA McDojo" or a "MMA/BJJ/Sanda McDojo".

Hey, you're the one that liked their forms.

Lion Dancing: that's just a personal thing, some good traditional Kung Fu schools do it, I just think it should be kept separate from the martial arts taught in the west - hence my *cringe*

The other three points: probably not.

Poor looking black belts/sashes: good TMA schools should produce good quality black sashes - no exceptions.

GIs in Kung Fu: no TCMAs wear GIs. Either no uniform, or at least a suitable uniform. Its the same reason why a BJJ school training in silk pyjamas might have its authenticity questioned. We have a causal uniform and no sashes - which I personally favour.

Training in lines: sometimes, to drill a few techniques its worth it, but time is much better spent working with a partner. No one ever became a great fighter by simply punching and kicking the air.

Shouting "Yes sir to your teacher" (this is actually in the video): ridiculous. Show respect to students and teacher but its not the army, "Yes sir, no sir." Is too much for me.

One of these things (aside from the poor Black Sash students) can be accepted but when they start to add up, and the club is mixing classes and doesn't have a lineage we move away from the realms of TMA into modern schools that are trying to claim to be authentic, traditional martial arts schools when they are not.

Well its safe to assume that the Black sash students were in place before the Bjj introduction. Unless this place is a belt factory, I'm going to assume it took some time for them to reach Black sash.

Here's some of their full contact Praying Mantis sparring from 2011;

I'd like your opinion on it.

My opinion: :lol:

 

[Hanzou]

Here's another old school vid of traditional Kung Fu on the rooftops of China c. 1956;

About the same quality of striking that I saw from other videos.