Koshiki
Brown Belt
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2013
- Messages
- 424
- Reaction score
- 137
The argument was that people who compete aren't trying to do serious bodily harm o one another. I believe that someone trying to pound you in the face and potentially send you to the hospital is trying to do serious bodily harm to you.
And I believe they are trying to beat you WITHOUT doing you any sort of life changing bodily harm. Broken noses and sliced lips are completely different than smashed elbows and a knife in your gut. I also believe that someone trying to "choke you out," is different than someone squeezing your throat and curshing your windpipe, releasing lovely glue like fluid and ending your life without a tracheotomy ASAP.
I don't think anyone here is saying that MMA, or BJJ, or boxing is ineffective in an altercation. I think they are saying that OTHER THINGS ARE AS WELL.
MMA tends to be less dangerous than Hockey and Football because a MMA match doesn't last as long as a football or hockey game. Getting consistently blasted by huge linebackers for the better part of two hours tends to wear your body down.
Out of curiosity, are most sports-related injuries incurred in actual competition, or in training? Because that might have some bearing on your statement, here... Either way, the point is, that if two guys are intent on seriously injuring each other, they are able to do so pretty damn quickly. Let's assume that we've both been witness to situations where two guys really try to hurt one another. They're brief, not fun, generally graceless, and usually seem to end with someone pretty hurt, unless they get pulled apart in the first couple of seconds.
Im curious how you got all of that out of me simply pointing out that one of modern martial art's greatest advantages is its repetition of comparatively few techniques. I've even provided two videos of guys performing MMA and doing pretty basic skills to control a situation.
I got that out of you saying that you would "asses the situation and use a different technique." If you can do that while getting slugged/grabbed, you're a pretty impressive guy. If i get someone trying to pop me in the head, and I have 0.5 seconds to respond, I know that I, for one, and not skilled enough to simultaneously analyze whether ANYONE in the whol bar could conceivably come to the rescue of my newfound grapple-buddy.
Again, no one has said, "MMA is crap and doesn't work." What everyone has said is, "hey, TMAs work too, and you clearly don't have much experience with them." You don't need to defend MMA, no one wants to attack it. I've several times said that I like it. It's a great sparring game, a great training tool. Among others.
No, the MMA fellow has the benefit of randori. So they've simulated full resistance grappling in the dojo, and reinforced that full resistance grappling in a competition environment. The advantage that grappling arts have over striking arts is that I can go full blast with a Judo throw or Bjj takedown in the dojo because my partner (should) know how to fall without injuring themselves. So I don't need to pull back when I do a one-armed shoulder throw, a guillotine choke, or a rear takedown during randori. Additionally, my partner is giving me full resistance, because his goal is to do the same thing to me. on the ground, we're both going full blast to try to gain the dominant position, just like we would in an actual fight.
The term "randori" is not exactly MMA specific. I seem to remember that it's a Karate term? No? I think everyone would agree that one advantage of grappling, excluding limb bars and breaks, is that you can practice full force. Guess what? TMAs can practice THEIR grappling full force too! Much like in TMAs, however, strikes generally cannot be practiced full force without padding, in either TMA or MMA.
And I certainly hope you hold back some when you practice your guillotine chokes, because I'd hate for you to end up on trial for accidental manslaughter...
I also hope you use some control with your "rear takedown," depending on how you're performing it. A cracked neck or a smashed nose can cut a training session short, so I'm told. If rear takedown has a specific MMA meaning, I apologize for my ignorance. 'Round these parts it means taking someone down from behind, and there are a lot of ways to do it.
So if I end up in a clinch in a self defense situation, I can throw my untrained opponent with relative ease, and he won't be falling properly, and he will more than likely be landing on concrete. If I get bjj black belt in a choke, I'm probably going to get the untrained brawler in a choke as well. It's even better when you train without a gi.
ONE LAST TIME! WE ALL KNOW THAT MMA AND BJJ ARE INVOLVED SPORTS WHICH WILL GREATLY INCREASE YOUR ABILITY TO DEFEND YOURSELF. You keep trying to defend them as street-defense. I think we all agree. A trained BJJ guy or MMA stylist will likely win against a similarly sized/shaped untrained guy, assuming equal levels of intent. The conversation everyone else is having, is that TMA is not practicing meaningless kata in the air and pretending to disrupt chi-flow. You, however, Mr. Hanzou, refuse to believe us when we say that we, TMArtists all, are doing something other than what you think we are doing.
If you actually listen to what people are saying, you might learn that TMAs are a great deal more similar to MMA than you seem to think they are. We practice effective striking and footwork. We practice hitting bags. We do a heck of a lot of "randori," but it tends to be different, in many cases, than the MMA game. Hard contact restricted striking and grappling may be one game we play, but we play a great deal of other "randori" type games as well, because what we train for requires it.
And I completely agree with you. Techniques which rely on you wearing a gi pretty much mean you have to be attacked in your gym. They are great for the sport they come from, but it's kind of like practicing self-defense with a sword. Unless you plan on carrying a sword everywhere you go...Glad we agree on something!
This was the genius of Jigaro Kano, the founder of Judo.
You could always carry a pair of gloves in your back pocket, just in case something crazy pops off.
...I'm going to assume that's a joke... It is, right?
Again, I'd rather not name styles. I don't want to be accused of style bashing.
What if we all promised to NOT accuse you of style bashing, because we are intensely interested in what sort of background you have? Anyway, I would say that bashing all TMAs as a group is probably going to land in in more hot water than bashing two specific ones. Or, you could refrain from bashing them, and just tell us what you did in classes there, and why you didn't like it. That's not bashing, that's explaining martial preferences in a calm and rational manner.
The difference being that that couch potato couldn't open up an MMA school and be taken seriously. The culture is different. In MMA, your instructor is tested by his students constantly. If you open up an MMA school, you better know how to grapple, box, and whatever else, because people will be rolling through to test you. In the TMAs, that couch potato could open up a school and perform some pretty movements, and few will question him, much less challenge him. It's simply a different culture. I call my bjj instructor by his first name for example, while in Karate it was sensei, or master.
I agree with you again, here. The advantage of a sport style is that it can be really and truly tested, because it was designed to be tested. Any style which is designed to end fights in seconds cannot be tested, because, as we say around here, "If you break your training buddy, you don't get a new one."
Look around the TMA forums, here and elsewhere. The fact that so many people can and do set themselves up as TMA instructors without any credentials or ability is a pretty sore spot among TMArtists. There are a lot of threads about McDojos, unqualified instructors, and dangerously poor technique. It is a different culture, and I wish we could somehow weed out all the duff around and teach nonsense schools. But, to do that, we'd either all have to start doing sport/competition martial arts, which I wouldn't want, or we'd have to really injure each other, which I also don't want. I've gotten slightly hurt enough times to know that I would prefer that I never be really hurt.
However, the fact that there are bad imitators out there, doesn't mean that people who practice good martial arts are also bad imitators.
The uninitiated won't be able to tell the difference between kenpo a, kenpo b, or kenpo c. To this day, I don't understand the entire story of the kenpo lineage, and I don't really care. If you tell me you know Kenpo Karate, I'm going to assume you know Kenpo Karate. The internal squabbles over what is true Kenpo or Kung Fu, and what isn't is fairly childish stuff.
Are you implying that, since you don't know much about Kenpo, it's all as bad as the youtube video you plucked out of the blue? I may be, once again, misunderstanding, but... You posted a video, essentially saying, "look, this stuff is fake and doesn't work." And we all said, "yeah, we know, that's not what we do." Which is the pattern of the past 13 pages of conversation. You seem to say, "TMA is porr because you do A, B, and C, and because you don't do enough of D." We say, "we don't do A, or C, B is actually used like this, where it is quite useful, and we do actually to D." Then you tell us that we can't test our stuff in the ring so it doesn't work... I may be oversimplifying, but that's what I keep reading.
And frankly, a few weeks back I started playing at a Shaolin Kempo Karate school, a style which I do not much care for. Those guys throw each other, they choke each other out, they mount, guard, etc. The things you seem to think are unique to MMA and BJJ are not. They've been around for a looooong time, and they haven't disappeared from the other arts simply because MMA became popular.
If you want to say that people who do good martial arts are legitimate, and that those who imitate poorly are not, I doubt you will meet with any resistance. Unless we are all misunderstanding you, it sounds like you claim that all contemporary traditional martial arts are illegitimate. If that's not what you mean, please clarify, because we have clearly got the wrong idea.
If he is moving into my range then my kicks will hit him harder (head on collision), if he is moving out of range then I can kick him with a longer range kick or wait until he comes back in range. Grabbing a leg is not easy during a good kick, which will be fast and will involve quickly retracting the leg. Kicking high increases the chance of your leg being grabbed and there are specific defences against leg grabs.
