MMA vs TMA

[Hanzou]

Your ignorance shines through again. Kung Fu is not simply about using dirty striking techniques, pulling hair, biting...etc

We have many chin na techniques within our system that can be used to take down and control an opponent, as opposed to smashing through their joints.

Here is an example of what interestingly looks like a JJ practitioner using some of the techniques contained within the Seven Star Praying Mantis forms to takedown an opponent.

http://youtu.be/HHcaPtDOTrE

That was pretty strange. The guy does a Kung Fu form, then to show how it works, he does Juijitsu/Judo.

Why not just do Judo?

Here we have an example of some takedowns in the Six Harmonies Mantis system.

http://youtu.be/SVfOhBOrwrI

I'm always skeptical of things like that. The partner seems a bit too compliant. I would have rather seen more resistance shown by the opponent. Unfortunately, that vid reminded me of Steven Segal throwing people around in his Aikido demonstrations.

If I'm fighting ANYONE the ground is the absolute last place I want to be and if I end up there then I'll be getting back on my feet as soon as possible. Actively trying to follow an opponent to ground is going to end up getting you kicked in the head.

Depends on the situation. If you can finish your opponent on the ground, then you should do so. Allowing him to get back up to do more harm to you would be a mistake.

Which training methods do you consider antiquated?

Forms/Kata for starters.

We've already established that you don't have much understanding of true Kung Fu, therefore you're not in much of a position to make an informed judgement on styles that you know little about.

Well, maybe the "true Kung fu" folks should make a better effort of getting their art out there. The "fake Kung Fu" people are giving your branch of MA a bad name.

I'd choose Wing Chun every time although I still appreciate the usefulness of Western Boxing when it comes to self defence. I certainly wouldn't outright state that it wasn't practical if I only had a little experience at a below par gym.

Well that's fine. People have different views on what is useful or not useful.

It's pretty easy to spot bad Kung Fu, if you know what you're looking for. In sorry you had a bad experience but you sound very, very bitter and you've allowed this experience to cloud your judgement. Let it go and open your mind to the possibility that your experience of Kung Fu wasn't representative of the whole family of styles that originate from China.

Well, let me just state that the CMAs never really appealed to me, so I'm not really bitter towards Kung Fu. As for being able to spot "bad Kung fu", I disagree. It all pretty much looks the same to me. I saw some very pretty Wushu demos a few years back, and a buddy of mine told me that Wushu wasn't "real Kung fu". So what is "real Kung Fu"? In my experience, "True Kung Fu" is whatever CMA someone is taking at a given time.

Its different than if you're looking for a good Bjj or Judo school. Bjj and Judo instructors are tested constantly by other martial artists. If you're a BB in Bjj you have a big target on your back, because as soon as you open a school, everyone from miles around is going to walk in to roll with you. That's not even including the competitive side of things.

That type of quality control just doesn't happen in the CMAs, or TMAs in general.

 

[RTKDCMB]

He could have knocked the guy out by throwing him down, or doing a takedown and putting him to sleep in a variety of ways. Those methods would have had a higher chance to actually knock out his adversary.

With the way he was striking, definitely.

Fists and feet don't hit harder than gravity and concrete.

Gravity doesn't hit anything and as for concrete, most of the people who have died from hitting the concrete have done so as the result of a punch.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I'm always skeptical of things like that. The partner seems a bit too compliant. I would have rather seen more resistance shown by the opponent. Unfortunately, that vid reminded me of Steven Segal throwing people around in his Aikido demonstrations.

When Steven Segal throws you around you comply or you get hurt, all that rolling around is to prevent injury.

Depends on the situation. If you can finish your opponent on the ground, then you should do so. Allowing him to get back up to do more harm to you would be a mistake.

You can do that much more efficiently with a strike.

Forms/Kata for starters.

That's just a lack of understanding on your part because you don't train them.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Knocking someone out with a knife hand is a rare occurrence. Taking someone down with a double leg take down is common occurrence. Chances are, you're not going to knock someone out with a knife hand, which will force you to go to plan B. However with take downs, gravity isn't going anywhere, and neither is the surface of the Earth.

The double leg take down is common occurrence because it is used in the UFC. Plan B is another strike (what you think someone would only use one?), say punch to the solar plexus, with a takedown that also puts you on the ground you are much more limited and vulnerable.

 

[RTKDCMB]

That type of quality control just doesn't happen in the CMAs, or TMAs in general.

That's not quality control, that's competition and/or ego.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Attempting to knock out your opponent, or knock the wind out of your opponent is unreliable.

Have you ever been kicked or hit hard in the solar plexus or the ribs or seen it done?

Like that security guard fighting that thug, he couldn't knock him out despite the fact that he was better trained, and about equal size. Utilizing takedowns, locks, holds, and chokes is quite a bit more reliable.

The guard was not a very efficient striker, that's why he was not able to knock him out.

Of course if you can get a lucky knockout blow like the karateka in that video, more power to you.

There's nothing lucky about skill and power.

You'll get a kick out of this one too;

I think its the same school. What's even more hilarious is that they're ALL 6th degree black belts, and they kick and punch like garbage.

Maybe they're all doing it for exercise?

Yep, same school - one of the worst examples of any type of martial art.

 

[Kframe]

Hanzou let me make it simple for you. The only time i find my self on the ground with a grapper wont be in a cage. If i find my self on the ground i will not hesitate to pull the one of 2 knives i carry or the revolver i ccw. Sorry. Im not a bjj guy i will shoot anyone on top of me in a self defense situation. Secondly you may beable to tie up one of my arms, but i have 2 knives, and good luck going for the Americana while i proceed to stab everything in range.

Bjj works on the street if no one has weapons and no one brings a friend. You can not deny those facts. End of discussion.

 

[jks9199]

Maybe we're talking about two different things here, but are you saying that your police department would rather have you punch and knee a suspect in the face multiple times instead of pinning him down and/or cuffing him?

Without tearing into any one agency's policies -- police officers in the US are expected to use the force reasonably necessary to overcome the resistance we meet. Depending on what's going on, that can be anything from the pig pile to a bullet. Few set a policy on what technique to use anymore, though there are often policies to classify targets. Many agencies still forbid the lateral vascular restraint AKA rear naked choke because if it's not done right... it becomes a literal chokehold and lethal force. So long as I can articulate why the force used was necessary -- I can punch, kick, knee, elbow, arm bar, leg lock, wrist lock, finger lock, or whatever I want.

 

[Dinkydoo]

That was pretty strange. The guy does a Kung Fu form, then to show how it works, he does Juijitsu/Judo.

No, he showed one application of a movement from a set form, it was definitely Kung Fu. The arm bar at the end was Juijitsu/judo.

Why not just do Judo?

What would be the point? My predominantly striking art is more rounded than Judo and contains chin na, striking and throws. Why would I only want to train in the grappling/throwing elements?

Granted, a Judo guy is probably going to be better at grappling than me but I'd be trying to get an opponent to play my game, not theirs.

I'm always skeptical of things like that. The partner seems a bit too compliant. I would have rather seen more resistance shown by the opponent. Unfortunately, that vid reminded me of Steven Segal throwing people around in his Aikido demonstrations.

The video was purely a demonstration. These techniques, with proper alignment and body mechanics do work. Six Harmonies Mantis is closer to Taijiquan than the style of Mantis I train in and people who haven't ever experienced someone like that taking you down will always be skeptical. I was skeptical about the usefulness of Taijiquan until someone I train with demonstrated yielding techniques to me in Yang they'd trained in.

Depends on the situation. If you can finish your opponent on the ground, then you should do so. Allowing him to get back up to do more harm to you would be a mistake.

I agree, but there's absolutely no way I'm going to willingly start rolling about the ground with an attacker. If I want them to stay down then i can easily do it whilst on my own two feet. There are no rules on the street remember so you aren't nearly as protected as you'd be going to ground in the ring - multiple attackers, weapons and environmental dangers are additional variables that make the ring and real life so much different.

Forms/Kata for starters.

Do you think drilling techniques like kicks for instance are useless too? It's practically the same thing. Set forms are excellent training tools, its a shame you don't rate them.

Well, maybe the "true Kung fu" folks should make a better effort of getting their art out there. The "fake Kung Fu" people are giving your branch of MA a bad name.

...and arrogance gives MMA and BJJ a bad reputation, but I don't let that spoil my entire perception of their training methods.

There's plenty of real Kung Fu out there but most aren't eager to film their arts and place them online or put them in the public eye. For many people its a way of life and not about money or publicity.

Well, let me just state that the CMAs never really appealed to me, so I'm not really bitter towards Kung Fu. As for being able to spot "bad Kung fu", I disagree. It all pretty much looks the same to me. I saw some very pretty Wushu demos a few years back, and a buddy of mine told me that Wushu wasn't "real Kung fu". So what is "real Kung Fu"? In my experience, "True Kung Fu" is whatever CMA someone is taking at a given time.

Wushu is martial gymnastics, its not practical and is designed to look nice and impressive. It might all look the same to you because you have very little interest in it. Each true kung fu style should have an 'essence' and that should be visible within the set forms which are cleverly designed encyclopaedias of techniques contained by the system. The styles should have characteristics that distinguish them from one and other, they should have originated from and have been developed in China 150+ years ago. True Kung Fu is tried, tested and proven methods of combat - not some chop suey American or British hybrid/combination of systems.

Its different than if you're looking for a good Bjj or Judo school. Bjj and Judo instructors are tested constantly by other martial artists. If you're a BB in Bjj you have a big target on your back, because as soon as you open a school, everyone from miles around is going to walk in to roll with you. That's not even including the competitive side of things.

That type of quality control just doesn't happen in the CMAs, or TMAs in general.

It happens a lot at any school I've trained with.

Student: "Excuse me, could you show me this application again. I'm not sure I can really get it to work."

Teacher: Shows student slowly and then asks senior student to attack with full force. Teacher demonstrates controlled technique to deal with a forceful threat.

This is exactly what would happen at both of the 'external' kung fu clubs I've trained in.

 

[K-man]

You guys just don't get it, do you?

What are you all, stupid?

If anything looks like crap it is TMA. If you perform kata you are just stupid, if you demonstrate an application of kata you are no longer demonstrating a TMA because TMAs don't have any techniques that work. If you manage to get a technique to work it is only because at some stage you learnt it from an MMA guy because only those guys are any good! If you find a TMA guy demonstrating smooth takedowns, he either has a compliant partner or he is doing judo. If a guy has an effective punch he must have learned boxing because TMA guys don't use punching bags or focus mits, they just punch air. Locks and holds are fine in the MMA because those guys have learned how to make them work but the will never work on a non-complying partner because TMAs never train with non-complying partners.

TMA guys are pretty gross because they bite, spit, pull hair and gouge eyes if their life is threatened, and that is unsporting.

And, for all you idiots out there that reckon TMAs are any good, TMAs suck because their people won't test their skills in the ring against genuine MMA fighters.

Do you get it now?

Oh, and stop training all those things like head buts, downward elbows to the spine, kicks to the side of the knee, knife hands to the neck, neck cranks, joint busts, fish hooks, knees to the neck (on the ground), stomps to the head (also on the ground), etc because unless someone with MMA training has shown you how to do them they won't work and anyway, if you are ever attacked on the street by an MMA guy (unlikely because they are God's own people) you can't use any of those things because that wouldn't be fair!

Did I miss anything?

Oh, and BTW, I've seen the light ... :iws:

At 65 I just can't wait to get into the cage and show you young bucks how an old, flabby, overweight, unfit guy can use this new, watered down sporting style MMA s#1t to whip your arses in fair, sporting completion.

I'd really like to thank someone on this thread for pointing out how I have wasted half my life with stupid TMA training but I have now seen the error of my ways. I won't mention his name because he is so modest, but such an expert on TMA that I am sure you will all know the one I am so much in awe of.

And .... just a reminder .... :trollsign:

 

[Hanzou]

With the way he was striking, definitely.

His technique was solid, but it seemed that his blows missed a lot of its targets. I believe the problem was that the thug kept bypassing his punching range and coming in for the clinch. Again, perfect opportunity to grapple, and take that clown to the ground.

Gravity doesn't hit anything and as for concrete, most of the people who have died from hitting the concrete have done so as the result of a punch.

That doesn't surprise me since more people know how to punch than know how to throw or take someone down.

The double leg take down is common occurrence because it is used in the UFC. Plan B is another strike (what you think someone would only use one?), say punch to the solar plexus, with a takedown that also puts you on the ground you are much more limited and vulnerable.

Its common because its easy to do, and its very reliable. I was doing double leg take downs as a child because I watched wrasslin' and football.

Unless you see it coming, or you've trained yourself to counter it, a DLT will land you flat on your back everytime.

Have you ever been kicked or hit hard in the solar plexus or the ribs or seen it done?

Sure, but it takes a variety of factors to knock the wind out of someone. Its even more complicated if your opponent is wearing a jacket or heavy clothing.

The guard was not a very efficient striker, that's why he was not able to knock him out.

I agree, but I would also say that he wasn't able to knock him out because knocking someone out isn't easy to do.

There's nothing lucky about skill and power.

You should watch that vid again. The Karateka's attack wasn't all that crisp.

Yep, same school - one of the worst examples of any type of martial art.

Agreed.

 

[Hanzou]

No, he showed one application of a movement from a set form, it was definitely Kung Fu. The arm bar at the end was Juijitsu/judo.

You would think that, until you go to their webpage and read what they're doing;

From their site;

Learn the Mantis Fighter's strategy - Bridge, Strike, Hook, Throw, Submit.

Bridge with deceptive kicking. Strike to overwhelm your enemy. Hook to latch on and control. Throw to disable. Submit with strikes/locks.
Classes are full of teamwork and camaraderie. With each student helping one another to get better. Praying Mantis Kung Fu can be your sole focus, or increase your self-defense skills and augment your training with our Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu class.

http://noreastermartialarts.com/kungfu.html

So they're combining Mantis style Kung Fu with Bjj. That definitely explains the uniforms, and the JJ-style take downs and throws.

Its kind of funny that they're pushing their Bjj classes on the Kung Fu page.

If you check out their belt ceremony, they're practicing a (sloppy) version of Osoto-gari along with some weird mantis stuff....

http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

Stick around for the sparring session. Its quite a sight to see. :lol2:

What would be the point? My predominantly striking art is more rounded than Judo and contains chin na, striking and throws. Why would I only want to train in the grappling/throwing elements?

Granted, a Judo guy is probably going to be better at grappling than me but I'd be trying to get an opponent to play my game, not theirs.

Hey, if its good enough for those plumblossum guys....

In all seriousness, the reason I chose Bjj over a striking art was simple; I couldn't be bashing people's faces in with my fists, or kneeing them in the face and breaking their nose. I was dealing primarily with ED high school kids. Some were pretty huge, and I had to learn something that would not only allow me to restrain a larger opponent, but be able to not harm them as well. Say what you will, but punching someone only leads to harm. There's no way you can punch someone in a gentle fashion. When you punch somebody, your intent is to do damage. When you knife hand strike someone in their throat, your intent is to do damage. When I choke someone unconscious or place them in a body lock, my intent is to restrain and control them.

Again, that was the genius of Jigaro Kano, Maeda, and the Gracies.

However, I fully acknowledge and respect the fact that we all chose our arts for personal reasons.

The video was purely a demonstration. These techniques, with proper alignment and body mechanics do work. Six Harmonies Mantis is closer to Taijiquan than the style of Mantis I train in and people who haven't ever experienced someone like that taking you down will always be skeptical. I was skeptical about the usefulness of Taijiquan until someone I train with demonstrated yielding techniques to me in Yang they'd trained in.

Its unfortunate that neither of these arts are competitive. I would like to see both of them up against a different style, or an opponent intent on attacking the user.

I agree, but there's absolutely no way I'm going to willingly start rolling about the ground with an attacker. If I want them to stay down then i can easily do it whilst on my own two feet. There are no rules on the street remember so you aren't nearly as protected as you'd be going to ground in the ring - multiple attackers, weapons and environmental dangers are additional variables that make the ring and real life so much different.

Well there's the other side of the equation as well; What if your attacker gets YOU down? The good thing about Bjj is that it teaches you how to fight from your back.

Do you think drilling techniques like kicks for instance are useless too? It's practically the same thing. Set forms are excellent training tools, its a shame you don't rate them.

When you're drilling kicks, you're just drilling the kick. Its not sequence of complex movements that require the right set up to pull off.

...and arrogance gives MMA and BJJ a bad reputation, but I don't let that spoil my entire perception of their training methods.

There's plenty of real Kung Fu out there but most aren't eager to film their arts and place them online or put them in the public eye. For many people its a way of life and not about money or publicity.

That's fine, but I'm wondering why there's so much secrecy. Stuff like that simply rubs me the wrong way, because it makes it seem like there's some "secret knowledge" that I have to uncover by paying my sifu ridiculous amounts of money. Its just martial arts. Show us what you got. Share what you know. People aren't respected masters in Bjj because they have secret knowledge. They're respected because they can tap you out using simple things that you thought no one could ever get off on you.

Thank you for the tidbit about Wushu and how your school trains. Its appreciated.

 

[RTKDCMB]

His technique was solid, but it seemed that his blows missed a lot of its targets. I believe the problem was that the thug kept bypassing his punching range and coming in for the clinch. Again, perfect opportunity to grapple, and take that clown to the ground.

Techniques need to be accurate as well as solid, his was not.

Unless you see it coming, or you've trained yourself to counter it, a DLT will land you flat on your back everytime.

The DLT (not BLT, that's a sandwich) is very similar to the tackle, which is a technique many TMA's have learned to defend against, the defence is very similar. The standard counter in MMA is to move backwards, which is why they end up on their backs so often. You almost never see them move sideways, which is smarter.

Sure, but it takes a variety of factors to knock the wind out of someone. Its even more complicated if your opponent is wearing a jacket or heavy clothing.

I have knocked the wind out of people holding kicking shields, wearing a jacket or heavy clothing is not going to do a damn thing to protect someone.

I agree, but I would also say that he wasn't able to knock him out because knocking someone out isn't easy to do.

Knocking someone unconscious is not always the goal and not always necessary to end an attack.

In all seriousness, the reason I chose Bjj over a striking art was simple; I couldn't be bashing people's faces in with my fists, or kneeing them in the face and breaking their nose. I was dealing primarily with ED high school kids. Some were pretty huge, and I had to learn something that would not only allow me to restrain a larger opponent, but be able to not harm them as well. When I choke someone unconscious or place them in a body lock, my intent is to restrain and control them.

And that is applaudable, the reason I chose the martial art I am studying is because I got tired of getting picked on and wanted to learn how to defend myself.

 

[Dinkydoo]

So they're combining Mantis style Kung Fu with Bjj. That definitely explains the uniforms, and the JJ-style take downs and throws.

Its kind of funny that they're pushing their Bjj classes on the Kung Fu page.

Looks to me that they're using mantis to improve their BJJ.

If you check out their belt ceremony, they're practicing a (sloppy) version of Osoto-gari along with some weird mantis stuff....

http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

Stick around for the sparring session. Its quite a sight to see. :lol2:

I'll check it out later.

Hey, if its good enough for those plumblossum guys....

In all seriousness, the reason I chose Bjj over a striking art was simple; I couldn't be bashing people's faces in with my fists, or kneeing them in the face and breaking their nose. I was dealing primarily with ED high school kids. Some were pretty huge, and I had to learn something that would not only allow me to restrain a larger opponent, but be able to not harm them as well. Say what you will, but punching someone only leads to harm. There's no way you can punch someone in a gentle fashion. When you punch somebody, your intent is to do damage. When you knife hand strike someone in their throat, your intent is to do damage. When I choke someone unconscious or place them in a body lock, my intent is to restrain and control them.

That's fine, but personally, I don't care too much for the safety of someone trying to inflict pain on me (outside of class!). That's why I've chosen a well rounded striking art. I also enjoy the meditative elements of Kung Fu too, which, with a style like Seven Star Praying Mantis is by no means mandatory, so it's something I can research into and practice in my own time.

However, I fully acknowledge and respect the fact that we all chose our arts for personal reasons.

That's good. Although I do find it funny that someone who doesn't know the difference between Wushu and Kung Fu feels that they know enough about all TMAs to disregard them as a group. If you're starting to appreciate that you might have made a wrong assumption about a few things TMA related then I'll definitely be happy about the outcome of this thread.

Its unfortunate that neither of these arts are competitive. I would like to see both of them up against a different style, or an opponent intent on attacking the user.

We have small non-publicised bouts within the association (our association teaches Mantis, Wing Chun and Taijiquan but any student with any background, so long as they're part of the association can fight, I think). They're not open to the public though; I think you'd find that a lot of Kung Fu associations work in a similar manner.

[/QUOTE]

Well there's the other side of the equation as well; What if your attacker gets YOU down? The good thing about Bjj is that it teaches you how to fight from your back.

I have enough techniques in my locker to get back up from the ground but I definitely don't want to be rolling around with anyone, let alone a trained grappler, on the ground. Likewise, I'm not sure it would be the wisest idea for someone not trained in a predominantly striking art to try to match me on two feet.

When you're drilling kicks, you're just drilling the kick. Its not sequence of complex movements that require the right set up to pull off.

Here's another thing that you don't understand about Seven Star Praying Mantis (can't speak for other Kung Fu here). I posted a video about our high/low chain theory. Chain theory means that each of our techniques within the system can practically setup or follow from any other technique in the system. I could literally start from the middle of the set and work my way backwards to the beginning and the techniques would flow fine from one to another - there might be an issue about walking backwards though
Mantis is quite linear (like most Shaolin originated styles) so our set forms attack in coherent lines rather than include complicated , frequent directional changes. We might spend some time at home practicing sets from start to finish to develop good technique but in class we tear the sets apart and work on little sections (out of sequence) with a partner. So I might take the start of Bung Bo - inward block, cat stance, fist strike - to defend against a punch - and follow that up with hook, grab, stick with the arm, fist strike and stomp through the knee (using the stuck arm as additional leverage). This basic sequence is taken from little parts of two set forms (though one is more a lower leg kicking routine).

I also spend much of my training at home time chaining together different strikes from the sets on my heavy bag to develop speed and power.

Starting to sound more practical?

That's fine, but I'm wondering why there's so much secrecy. Stuff like that simply rubs me the wrong way, because it makes it seem like there's some "secret knowledge" that I have to uncover by paying my sifu ridiculous amounts of money. Its just martial arts. Show us what you got. Share what you know. People aren't respected masters in Bjj because they have secret knowledge. They're respected because they can tap you out using simple things that you thought no one could ever get off on you.

With most good Kung Fu schools I don't think there is much secrecy, just a lack of publicity. Although we do have a formal syllabus structure if a student requests to be taught a particular set or weapon from higher up in the syllabus they will, in most cases, be taught it. Life is too short to keep knowledge locked away until you've jumped through hoops X, Y and Z.

Thank you for the tidbit about Wushu and how your school trains. Its appreciated.

No problem.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou let me make it simple for you. The only time i find my self on the ground with a grapper wont be in a cage. If i find my self on the ground i will not hesitate to pull the one of 2 knives i carry or the revolver i ccw. Sorry. Im not a bjj guy i will shoot anyone on top of me in a self defense situation. Secondly you may beable to tie up one of my arms, but i have 2 knives, and good luck going for the Americana while i proceed to stab everything in range.

Bjj works on the street if no one has weapons and no one brings a friend. You can not deny those facts. End of discussion.

A good Bjj practitioner can tie up both your arms in guard. Check out that Draculino vid I posted earlier. If a Bjj guy can do that to you while he's on his back, what do you think he can do to you when he's on top of you? In a dominant position a Bjj practioncioner can control your entire upper body and either snap both your arms, put you to sleep, or pound your face into hamburger. Heck, they would probably do all three since your intent is to use deadly force.

 

[Hanzou]

Techniques need to be accurate as well as solid, his was not.

No argument there.

The DLT (not BLT, that's a sandwich) is very similar to the tackle, which is a technique many TMA's have learned to defend

against, the defence is very similar. The standard counter in MMA is to move backwards, which is why they end up on their backs so often. You almost never see them move sideways, which is smarter.

I doubt your average thug is a TMA practitioner who has practiced defense against the DLT.

I have knocked the wind out of people holding kicking shields, wearing a jacket or heavy clothing is not going to do a damn thing to protect someone.

Stationary target. Guy with jacket is moving in and out of your range, and there's always the threat of a leg grab.

Knocking someone unconscious is not always the goal and not always necessary to end an attack.

When you're exchanging blows with someone, what is the goal?

And that is applaudable, the reason I chose the martial art I am studying is because I got tired of getting picked on and wanted to learn how to defend myself.

I think most of us began our martial arts journey for that reason.

 

[Kframe]

I watched the vid, and at no point would I have been unable to reach a weapon.. If im on the ground ill already have one or two in my hands.

 

[Dinkydoo]

You would think that, until you go to their webpage and read what they're doing;

From their site;



http://noreastermartialarts.com/kungfu.html

So they're combining Mantis style Kung Fu with Bjj. That definitely explains the uniforms, and the JJ-style take downs and throws.

Its kind of funny that they're pushing their Bjj classes on the Kung Fu page.

If you check out their belt ceremony, they're practicing a (sloppy) version of Osoto-gari along with some weird mantis stuff....

http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

Stick around for the sparring session. Its quite a sight to see. :lol2:

Those definitely are JJ guys dabbling in a little mantis. The sparring isn't any Mantis I've ever seen and is probably closer to JJ than anything else.

Some of the takedowns in the first video were Seven Star Praying Mantis though, taken from this set form - Bung Bo. Here you can see the very essence of this particular flavour of northern mantis; high/low chained attacks, straight in direction but strikes are frequently round and not coming straight from the centre. Each little couple of movements can be (and in a good club is) trained individually with a partner and against heavy resistance. Each attack can be chained into a massive number of other strikes, blocks and counters.

 

[RTKDCMB]

A good Bjj practitioner can tie up both your arms in guard. Check out that Draculino vid I posted earlier. If a Bjj guy can do that to you while he's on his back, what do you think he can do to you when he's on top of you? In a dominant position a Bjj practioncioner can control your entire upper body and either snap both your arms, put you to sleep, or pound your face into hamburger. Heck, they would probably do all three since your intent is to use deadly force.

The trick is getting him there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9cXR9RWnEE&

The area of interest starts at 0:50.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I doubt your average thug is a TMA practitioner who has practiced defense against the DLT.

Average thug - no, but more and more people these days have some amount of training.

Stationary target. Guy with jacket is moving in and out of your range, and there's always the threat of a leg grab.

He was not stationary after I kicked him. If he is moving into my range then my kicks will hit him harder (head on collision), if he is moving out of range then I can kick him with a longer range kick or wait until he comes back in range. Grabbing a leg is not easy during a good kick, which will be fast and will involve quickly retracting the leg. Kicking high increases the chance of your leg being grabbed and there are specific defences against leg grabs.

When you're exchanging blows with someone, what is the goal?

Exchanging blows is what occurs in a sporting contest and is not very smart for self defence. In self defence, someone attacks, you defend with blocks and/or evasions and then counter attack. It's not he hits me and I hit him back, it's he tries to hit me, I defend and I hit him INSTEAD, unless something goes wrong.