MMA vs TMA

[Hanzou]

Which you read off the video no doubt, it may be the grainy video but they looked a bit young to be grand masters to me. Crowds will gather whenever they see a fight, no mater who it is, advertise it and you will get larger crowds.

Eh, they looked to be in their mid 40s or early 50s. Old enough to be "masters" or leaders of their respective styles. Besides, I posted another old Chinese video showing more authentic TMA in a street fight. The results are similar.

Seriously? You pick the worst example you can find of two people who obviously are not very good at what they do just so that you can complain that TMA artists tell you that it is no good whilst expecting them to think it is.

I suppose the guy in the black shorts is not doing 'real MMA':

The difference being that we have several other examples of good MMA, including the guy who beat the crap out of the guy in your example. In that old Chinese video, both fighters looked terrible.

We don't have any secret techniques either. BJJ people put out a lot of videos becaues they are always trying to convince everyone they have the ultimate style that can beat anything, you see it all the time.

Not really. The majority of Bjj videos on the web are instructional videos. The minority of videos show Bjj beating the crap out of other arts.

And a great many masters have said otherwise. Bruce Lee was one of the greatest martial artists of all time and one of the people who inspired me to do martial arts in the first place but he was not the ultimate authority on all things.

Who would you consider the ultimate authority on such things?

 

[Koshiki]

Who would you consider the ultimate authority on such things?

The answer is obvious. No one. No person, no style, no system, no training method, nothing. Some are better than other at some things, some have great weaknesses. That is what everyone aside from you is claiming. Most styles, when done well, have something to offer. No style is good when trained poorly.

The same goes for practitioners, not a single one has ever been the authority on all things martial arts, even ones who make a huge career out of movie-style martial arts. Not even the ones with hugely overgrown egos. Not a single person. Ever.

That's pretty much how this thread should have started and ended. Instead, certain parties have decided that a few styles are immensely effective, and the rest are worthless. That contingent seems more intent on proving this, than finding out whether said party's claims are actually true. The thread has degraded to the point where it seems pretty pointless to continue. Comparing youtube vids to see which training method is best? Not much to be learned, there. At this point, I think anyone reading the thread will have a pretty good idea of how things stand.

I might also point out that, in the MMA forum, you'd expect more MMA-ers to jump in on Hanzou's side, were his claims thought to be especially legitimate by the bulk of practitioners...

 

[Kframe]

Found footage of a odd karate tournament. Its got a mma style rule set. Here is the footage.

One thing I noticed right off the bat was the complete absence of anything resembling any of the standard fair karate defenses out side out movement. No parries no blocking no intercepting no redirecting. It was just a slug fest.

 

[Hanzou]

The answer is obvious. No one. No person, no style, no system, no training method, nothing. Some are better than other at some things, some have great weaknesses. That is what everyone aside from you is claiming. Most styles, when done well, have something to offer. No style is good when trained poorly.

The same goes for practitioners, not a single one has ever been the authority on all things martial arts, even ones who make a huge career out of movie-style martial arts. Not even the ones with hugely overgrown egos. Not a single person. Ever.

That's pretty much how this thread should have started and ended. Instead, certain parties have decided that a few styles are immensely effective, and the rest are worthless. That contingent seems more intent on proving this, than finding out whether said party's claims are actually true. The thread has degraded to the point where it seems pretty pointless to continue. Comparing youtube vids to see which training method is best? Not much to be learned, there. At this point, I think anyone reading the thread will have a pretty good idea of how things stand.

This thread began because the TS wanted to know if any MMA folks had a distaste/mistrust/skepticism about the combat effectiveness of TMA in real life situations. I stepped up and said that I did have a distaste/mistrust/skepticism about the combat effectiveness of TMA styles, and I explained why.

Now as I've mentioned numerous times, I don't think TMAs are worthless, quite the opposite. For example, I've known people who's entire lives have been changed by studying Kung Fu and Ninjutsu for the better.

However, if my daughter or niece wanted to know where they should go to learn how to protect themselves, I wouldn't send them to those types of martial arts, because I don't feel that they would get the tools they need to defend themselves properly. I'd rather have my daughter learn how to choke a larger guy than learning katas and forms all day.

That's it, and that's all.

 

[K-man]

One thing I noticed right off the bat was the complete absence of anything resembling any of the standard fair karate defenses out side out movement. No parries no blocking no intercepting no redirecting. It was just a slug fest.

Why does that not surprise me? There are no 'blocks' in karate. All those fancy moves that are taught as blocks are other things. A punch is action, a block is reaction. The punch will win every time. However we have had threads on the effectiveness of blocks elsewhere. I do not teach blocks at all. If someone needs to protect their head they will put there arm up instinctively. Sure we can build on that with 'helmet' cover and the like but they are nothing like the things we call 'blocks'. But, in the video, the guys were slipping punches and moving inside the punches to clinch.

People like Hanzou see people in karate schools marching backwards and forwards blocking and quite correctly call it as BS. What people like him do not know or will not acknowledge is that what they are watching is not traditional martial art. It is the sanitised version that went into the schools for kids, then was exported out into the Western world as the real deal. Ask any karateka if his style is 'traditional' and he will almost certainly say yes. Probably most on this forum would claim their style is traditional. I would dispute that and say that most karate is not traditional. That doesn't mean that what is being trained is ineffective either in competition or on the street. How it stands up in the MMA arena depends on the person, not the style.

The guys in the video were almost at the exhaustion stage. One had difficulty even getting his hands up. In was a good example of gross motor skills coming to the fore with the loss of any fine motor skill. How would they have gone in MMA? Who knows? They did not seem to be highly skilled but what we see of MMA on TV is the elite level. Most MMA fighters are also nowhere near that elite level. That is what makes this sort of comparison a nonsense.
:asian:

 

[Kframe]

I don't want to start the blocking nonsense again, but that does not change the point that there are active interceptions in karate. You simply can not evade all shots, nor can you cover againt all shots. If a student wanted to learn to effectively do both, why bother with karate and just go learn kick boxing? They do those things better and sooner.. In the end there are reactive defenses. Parries and redirections are common in mma and boxing. Case in point the inside soto uke I use in sparring all the time against straight punch's.

Even though he may not know much about BBT I respect this guy with regards to karate and its defenses. http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/06/why-blocks-do-work.html Honestly when it comes to karate, during my conversations with him, and reading his blog, I can find no evidence to dispute him.

It makes no logical sense. Why call the techniques "receiving" if there not receiving anything? I they are attacks then call them a attack, if they are to receive something then that is what they should do.. If you wanted to learn to turtle up and cover up, why take the long way around, why not just learn boxing or kick boxing or mt? Where in all your forms are turtling up and covering? If they are attacks then the entire art, and all of its teachers in this country are lying to there students when they use the term Uke...



Problem as I see it, no one is teaching movement with deflection. Combining those two things is essential. Yet most schools in the states don't have there students doing that till higher levels. Some never do.



They work, the problem is the crap that is being peddled as karate in just about every school in America. Karate should have died with Funakoshi, he screwed it up, I blame him.

I guess I just don't see that argument. My former coach taught me the karate blocks, and I used them in sparring to great effect. My experiences color my opinion. If it were not for my experience's I would be inclined to agree with the troll.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Who would you consider the ultimate authority on such things?

No one, especially not you.

 

[RTKDCMB]

A little clever google searching derived from the original Youtube video you posted. This is the original name of their studio;

http://www.yelp.com/biz/plum-blossom-tai-chi-kung-fu-academy-littleton

The Plum Blossom Tai Chi and Kung Fu academy.

If you check out the address and phone number, its the same. They just changed the name because I guess Bjj had a huge impact on the school.



Hey, you're the one that liked their forms.




Well its safe to assume that the Black sash students were in place before the Bjj introduction. Unless this place is a belt factory, I'm going to assume it took some time for them to reach Black sash.

Here's some of their full contact Praying Mantis sparring from 2011;

I'd like your opinion on it.

My opinion: :lol:

It appears to be a crap school, who cares? I don't train there, do you? Get over it.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Eh, they looked to be in their mid 40s or early 50s. Old enough to be "masters" or leaders of their respective styles. Besides, I posted another old Chinese video showing more authentic TMA in a street fight. The results are similar.



The difference being that we have several other examples of good MMA, including the guy who beat the crap out of the guy in your example. In that old Chinese video, both fighters looked terrible.




Not really. The majority of Bjj videos on the web are instructional videos. The minority of videos show Bjj beating the crap out of other arts.



Who would you consider the ultimate authority on such things?

We could spend all day comparing videos of bad schools and martial artists and prove absolutely nothing, who has that kind of time?

 

[RTKDCMB]

People like Hanzou see people in karate schools marching backwards and forwards blocking and quite correctly call it as BS.

So you think that practicing single blocks over and over again to improve the technique by making it faster, more powerful, more precise and more instinctive to be BS? That says a lot.

 

[RTKDCMB]

A modern club, doing Lion Dancing, military style training lines, bad quality of Black Sashes doing forms, people in GIs doing 'Kung Fu'.

Whole load of 'nope' from me.

A video I saw on TV said that the lion dance uses many of the stances that are used in Kug Fu training and requires strength and balance. That dragon head is heavy and they are jumping up and down on raised surfaces and that would not be easy.

 

[K-man]

I don't want to start the blocking nonsense again, but that does not change the point that there are active interceptions in karate. You simply can not evade all shots, nor can you cover againt all shots. If a student wanted to learn to effectively do both, why bother with karate and just go learn kick boxing? They do those things better and sooner.. In the end there are reactive defenses. Parries and redirections are common in mma and boxing. Case in point the inside soto uke I use in sparring all the time against straight punch's.

Not wanting to go back there either but I'm not disagreeing with anything you have said here.

Even though he may not know much about BBT I respect this guy with regards to karate and its defenses. http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/06/why-blocks-do-work.html Honestly when it comes to karate, during my conversations with him, and reading his blog, I can find no evidence to dispute him.

I read your link and was agree with almost all of it, especially;

For the purposes of the latter, you should be aware that every basic block contains 2 movements - the primary block (a larger movement) and a secondary block (a smaller movement) in the "pullback" arm (what some people call the "crossing hand"). I am astounded as to how few karateka today are actually aware of this fact. The 2 blocks are intended to be used in concert (in transferring, trapping etc.). Alternatively the secondary block can be seen as a kind of backup if the primary one fails. Furthermore, what I have termed the "secondary" block could actually be used as the principal deflection - while the primary "block" is used offensively etc.

... and he concludes;

I doubt I could execute a full classical hiki uke against a jab, or probably any basic block against a realistic attack. However basic blocks are necessary tools to gaining the ability to execute smaller deflections with the same internal "feel".

... which is what I am saying.

It makes no logical sense. Why call the techniques "receiving" if there not receiving anything? I they are attacks then call them a attack, if they are to receive something then that is what they should do.. If you wanted to learn to turtle up and cover up, why take the long way around, why not just learn boxing or kick boxing or mt? Where in all your forms are turtling up and covering? If they are attacks then the entire art, and all of its teachers in this country are lying to there students when they use the term Uke...

Of course, they are receiving. I don't believe the teachers are lying. I think they are teaching what they have been taught and believe to be true. There are no turtling or covering in kata because kata is providing something totally different to what those same teachers are teaching. That is why the troll is dismissing kata as useless. The way it is mostly taught, I would agree with him but again, what is being taught is not traditional. Traditional kata came with instructions.

Problem as I see it, no one is teaching movement with deflection. Combining those two things is essential. Yet most schools in the states don't have there students doing that till higher levels. Some never do.

And this is exactly the problem. Dan talks about this omission then proceeds to demonstrate one arm 'blocks' just as you see them done in most karate schools. Those deflections, we use all the time.

They work, the problem is the crap that is being peddled as karate in just about every school in America. Karate should have died with Funakoshi, he screwed it up, I blame him.

Once again, agreed, but the traditional schools do continue in Okinawa.

I guess I just don't see that argument. My former coach taught me the karate blocks, and I used them in sparring to great effect. My experiences color my opinion. If it were not for my experience's I would be inclined to agree with the troll.

Using 'blocks' in sparring might well be possible because in sparring (sport) you have the luxury of distance and hence time. We do very little sparring from that distance. Our sparring starts at touching range, as it would be in a crowded bar. As for agreeing with our troll ... yes he has a point but I would argue that he has never seen, let alone trained in a traditional environment ... and he has his own agenda.
:asian:

 

[Dinkydoo]

I'd rather have my daughter learn how to choke a larger guy than learning katas and forms all day.

That's it, and that's all.

I'm glad you realise that all of this mistrust you have of TMA stems from the fact that you don't understand how to and/or have experienced training katas and forms effectively.

 

[Dinkydoo]

A little clever google searching derived from the original Youtube video you posted. This is the original name of their studio;

http://www.yelp.com/biz/plum-blossom-tai-chi-kung-fu-academy-littleton

[h=1]The Plum Blossom Tai Chi and Kung Fu academy.[/h]If you check out the address and phone number, its the same. They just changed the name because I guess Bjj had a huge impact on the school.

Fair enough; I didn't see the point in looking much further than their current website after the first video because although it showed a good takedown from one of our sets; going to an arm bar after it is probably the last thing a traditional Mantis practitioner would do.

Hey, you're the one that liked their forms.




Well its safe to assume that the Black sash students were in place before the Bjj introduction. Unless this place is a belt factory, I'm going to assume it took some time for them to reach Black sash.

Doesn't matter when the black sashes were in place really, this club isn't traditional.

Here's some of their full contact Praying Mantis sparring from 2011;

I'd like your opinion on it.

My opinion: :lol:

I'm in danger of style/club bashing myself on this thread so I don't think I really should say much more other than this:

I think they get tied up in close quarters grappling far too much for 'mantis students'. We have some grappling techniques in our system but they're usually applied quickly on the wrists and arms which I admit are quite dangerous for free fighting - probably best left to pressure tested scenario training (for beginners at least). Striking should be more fluid and definitely chained more than simply shuffling in, jab, back out, in-kick, takedown. It's obvious that these guys haven't really learned to apply mantis basics in sparring - which is difficult for a beginner, but you have to force yourself to fight like this until it becomes natural, rather than reverting to sloppy BJJ or kickboxing. This just looked like BJJ with striking to me and wasn't much different from the BJJ guys sparring that you posted initially.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Here's another old school vid of traditional Kung Fu on the rooftops of China c. 1956;

About the same quality of striking that I saw from other videos.

Seen it before - I agree, it's shocking quality.

 

[Dinkydoo]

A video I saw on TV said that the lion dance uses many of the stances that are used in Kug Fu training and requires strength and balance. That dragon head is heavy and they are jumping up and down on raised surfaces and that would not be easy.

That is true, Lion Dancing takes great athleticism, is nice to watch and goes quite well with Kung fu. The reasons why I don't think it sits well with Kung Fu taught in the west are mainly cultural - it's not part of our culture, we don't fully understand it and in most cases are probably just 'going through the motions'. I respect the fact that some clubs do this - even within my lineage - but I'd rather just leave the Chinese festivities to the Chinese. A McDojo teaching a mixture of 'traditional' stuff, Sanda and BJJ doing Lion Dancing just doesn't sit right with me at all.

 

[K-man]

So you think that practicing single blocks over and over again to improve the technique by making it faster, more powerful, more precise and more instinctive to be BS? That says a lot.

I didn't say that at all. Uke as they should be performed to be technically correct utilise both hands or arms except possibly Uchi Uke. When the students go marching up and down practising those techniques they generally perform then correctly. Now pair them up and they promptly forget they have two arms and do one arm 'blocks'. IMO that is where they go wrong. When my students do that the first hand deflects and the second hand does whatever it is that the exercise requires, whether that be control or strike. So I'll quote Dan Djurdjevic's article that Kframe linked, "

What misleads some people is the fact that basic blocks (including those in some kata like gekisai) appear to be "large" or "impractical" movements. However this thought process involves a fundamental misunderstanding: basic blocks are training tools that contain the complete plane of deflection for a particular angle. When you apply the block you might only effect part of the basic movement. Basic blocks should not be applied literally."

When you opponent is inside striking range no matter how much you have trained you will not perform a 'block' as you trained it. If you read more of Dan's article he says, "I doubt I could execute a full classical hiki uke against a jab, or probably any basic block against a realistic attack. However basic blocks are necessary tools to gaining the ability to execute smaller deflections with the same internal 'feel'."

Now you might be a much better martial artist than Dan but I am prepared to put myself in the same boat as him. I will deflect instinctively as I have trained for over 20 years but it will be the first part of the technique that is doing the protecting, not the second more visible part. That will be counter attacking in one form or other.

Now, your principle art is TKD and that has its roots in Shotokan. Shotokan was the original 'sanitised' karate that was designed to go into schools and universities. Some Shotokan teachers are teaching more RB techniques but many are not. I wouldn't have a clue about what you are training in TKD but if you comment above means anything, it also 'says a lot'. You are free to practise blocks any way you see fit and if you can use them in real life, fine. I am just presenting an alternative approach.
:asian:

 

[Hanzou]

I'm glad you realise that all of this mistrust you have of TMA stems from the fact that you don't understand how to and/or have experienced training katas and forms effectively.

My mistrust of TMA stems from way more than the forms, though I feel that forms are definitely part of the problem.

Think about that school you and I have been talking about. What if I were new to the martial arts and wanted to learn to defend myself and I joined that school? I would spend ample amounts of time and money learning sub par martial arts. I would earn a black sash, and walk around thinking I could defend myself with sloppy praying mantis boxing.

That's just not right.

That sort of thing doesn't happen in Bjj or Judo. In those arts, if you're not doing the real deal, none of the techniques are going to work. For example, if I'm trying to do a Kesa Gatame on someone much larger than me, I need to do it right, or I'm not going to be able to hold them down. If I'm trying to do a rear naked choke on someone, I need to do it right, or the person isn't going to get choked out. If I'm trying to do an Uchi Mata, if I don't do it right I'm not going to be able to throw them. All of that can be done in class against a fully resisting opponent. So I know almost instantly if I'm doing something wrong from the safety of my school. That is the advantage that Bjj and Judo has over TMAs.

 

[Dinkydoo]

My mistrust of TMA stems from way more than the forms, though I feel that forms are definitely part of the problem.

Think about that school you and I have been talking about. What if I were new to the martial arts and wanted to learn to defend myself and I joined that school? I would spend ample amounts of time and money learning sub par martial arts. I would earn a black sash, and walk around thinking I could defend myself with sloppy praying mantis boxing.

That's just not right.

I wholeheartedly agree - it isn't right.

The problem some TMAs is the westernization of the training that these clubs are undertaking - which has been touched upon by others on this thread - and that most people realize that learning how to use something like Kung Fu effectively takes a hell of a lot of time and effort. This is unfortunately exploited by certain individuals who either believe that they are teaching proper Kung fu themselves (learned behaviour) or by people that are happy to churn out highly graded 'below par' students. These schools tend to grade purely on how good you can perform your set forms and how good you can demonstrate technique by walking up and down a hall - there may be some 'tip tappy' sparring thrown in there too. Proper kung fu schools will usually grade students on things like chi sau and application based testing - in addition to the set forms - because we realize that being able to perform a set really nice and being able to actually use the techniques are two different things. If you practice a set without intent or an idea of what the applications are or if you haven't trained with a partner enough to actually be able to use the techniques then you may as well be doing a funny dance, for all the good it will do.

That sort of thing doesn't happen in Bjj or Judo.

If we are going to discuss this sensibly then you will need to leave your bias at the front door. You obviously have a short memory, remember that Bjj sparring you were laughing at a few pages back? That was presumably being taught by the BJJ Black Belt that you stated had been drafted into the club...

Granted, this sort of thing may not be as frequent in BJJ or Judo.

In those arts, if you're not doing the real deal, none of the techniques are going to work. For example, if I'm trying to do a Kesa Gatame on someone much larger than me, I need to do it right, or I'm not going to be able to hold them down. If I'm trying to do a rear naked choke on someone, I need to do it right, or the person isn't going to get choked out. If I'm trying to do an Uchi Mata, if I don't do it right I'm not going to be able to throw them. All of that can be done in class against a fully resisting opponent. So I know almost instantly if I'm doing something wrong from the safety of my school. That is the advantage that Bjj and Judo has over TMAs.

I fear that you are far too blinkered to ever discuss this rationally.

It is the training methods adopted by schools claiming to teach TMAs that is the problem, not the art itself. Just last night we were doing some of the wrist and elbow locks/manipulation with a partner that we have in our system and it wasn't working for me because I wasn't doing it right either. Half an hour later, with a bit of practice and modified technique low and behold the techniques suddenly work and I have control of the person in front of me - because if they didn't move the way I wanted them to then the pain intensifies and they are going to injure themselves. That right there is an example of how TMAs should be taught.

Have a free 45 mins and want to learn a little about Praying Mantis Kung Fu, watch this - it is a tv program called Kung Fu Quest.

 

[RTKDCMB]

It seems I have misinterpreted what you were trying to say, my apologies.

I didn't say that at all. Uke as they should be performed to be technically correct utilise both hands or arms except possibly Uchi Uke. When the students go marching up and down practising those techniques they generally perform then correctly. Now pair them up and they promptly forget they have two arms and do one arm 'blocks'. IMO that is where they go wrong. When my students do that the first hand deflects and the second hand does whatever it is that the exercise requires, whether that be control or strike. So I'll quote Dan Djurdjevic's article that Kframe linked, "

When you opponent is inside striking range no matter how much you have trained you will not perform a 'block' as you trained it. If you read more of Dan's article he says, "I doubt I could execute a full classical hiki uke against a jab, or probably any basic block against a realistic attack. However basic blocks are necessary tools to gaining the ability to execute smaller deflections with the same internal 'feel'.

I completely agree with all of the above, the basic technique has to be learned correctly and then modified for the situation. A basic low section block for example would be practiced in basics during line work with the non-blocking hand returning to the hip. But when used in sparring or in a real attack both hands would be in a guarding position the blocking hand will block, the non-blocking hand will be stay there and the basic body movement will be the same as in the basics, not just moving one hand. I had to use that once in a real situation many years ago and it saved me from getting kicked in the groin and it felt quite natural to do so.