MMA vs Kung Fu Day 1 Results

[Alan0354]

Besides to use your leg to block a kick as you have described, you can also raise your leg high enough to escape your opponent's foot sweep.

From an offensive point of view, the higher that you can lift your knee, the more power that you can generate to throw your opponent.

This, I have not seen in Judo. I don't think it's easy to use in real life particularly the second one. When the first guy tries to throw you, he will be pulling you hard, it's NOT so easy to throw him backward like this particular with one knee. It's just not going to happen from my experience. This is only for demo only.


To be really honest, I won't count too much on this kind of Judo throw. It's NOT easy to throw people if the person knows a little about throw defense.....WHICH everyone learn within a few months doing Judo. It's so easy to defend, when the opponent tries to throw you by grab and turn their body to throw you over their hip, just sit down a little like doing a horse stance( don't even have to be that low) to put the center of gravity lower, he's going to have a hell of a time pulling you over. We all do that in sparring. Only ones that you can throw are the ones that never even see Judo before. It's just natural for us to just sit lower a little.

The scary part of wrestling and BJJ is they don't try to throw you over the hip, they push you back and at the same time trap your leg to make you fall backward. No complicate motion of grab, pull you in and turn to throw you over the hip. It's just way too show and too easy to defend.

 

[Damien]

Besides to use your leg to block a kick as you have described, you can also raise your leg high enough to escape your opponent's foot sweep.

From an offensive point of view, the higher that you can lift your knee, the more power that you can generate to throw your opponent.

Oh certainly, there's all sorts of things you can do, and yes a higher knee lends itself better to many of them. I was simply exploring its use as an alternative to the thai check for blocking kicks, and for this a tighter and lower position is better.

That second throw looks brutal. I hope the other guy was OK! That kind of thing is illegal in Rugby because of the high risk of injury

 

[Damien]

I cannot speak anything other stuffs. He's talking about kicking, it is correct the higher you raise your knee, the higher you can kick with power. I am sure it will help knee strikes also.

I know, but I started this conversation around Jin Ji Du Li talking about checking kicks, not delivering them. We can of course discuss wider things, I'm just saying that JJDL can be done in multiple ways for multiple purposes

 

[Alan0354]

That second throw looks brutal. I hope the other guy was OK! That kind of thing is illegal in Rugby because of the high risk of injury

It's not that bad, it's only a demo, it's hard to throw this in real fight. They must have Judo mat that is thick on the floor. When one knows how to break the fall, it's not that bad. I fell off the back of the truck higher than that. I broke the fall and nothing happened to me other than scratching my Rolex watch(slapping the ground to break the fall). It was on concrete floor also!!! That was like 30 years after I stop practicing Judo already.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

it's hard to throw this in real fight.

You can apply this technique when your opponent turns his back on you and tries to throw you.

 

[Alan0354]

You can apply this technique when your opponent turns his back on you and tries to throw you.

No, I explained why already. This is only a demo. I learn judo, if someone already turn to pull you over the hip, all the force are moving forward. You think you can pull him back with one knee? Only happen in fairy tale. You do this kind of sparring? You should know it's NOT easy if even possible to do this kind of fancy moves.

I did shows when I was in the class, I know how fake it was to make it look good.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

No, I explained why already. This is only a demo. I learn judo, if someone already turn to pull you over the hip, all the force are moving forward. You think you can pull him back with one knee? Only happen in fairy tale. You do this kind of sparring? You should know it's NOT easy if even possible to do this kind of fancy moves.

I did shows when I was in the class, I know how fake it was to make it look good.

My senior SC brother David C. K. Lin had used this move to earn his SC championship title many years in Taiwan. When he used knee lift to lift his 300 lb student, his student was shocked.

After David had passed away, can anybody on this planet who can make this move to work o the mat? I truly don't know.

 

[Alan0354]

My senior SC brother David C. K. Lin had used this move to earn his SC championship title many years in Taiwan. When he used knee lift to lift his 300 lb student, his student was shocked.

After David had passed away, can anybody on this planet who can make this move to work o the mat? I truly don't know.

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I am not talking about the move is impossible, I commented on the specific video you showed. There are so many ways to defend the throwing by the opponent, just not that showoff move that is useless, only for demo show.

All you need is sit lower so the guy cannot throw you over the hip, then you can do head lock or other simple moves..............Hell, just pound on the back of his head!!! Last thing you want is to do fancy stuffs and ending up being killed. flashy is usually NOT a good way. The point is to win a fight, not flashy. Do those on the movie set.

If I audition for a school and they show me this, I just smile and leave. Not to be offensive, all the throwing you show, it's very easy to defend. I yet to think of a good way to defend the shoot to the waist by the opponent, pushing me backwards and being grabbed by the leg.......and not falling backward on my back. THIS, is scary. This, is done in wrestling and BJJ. Think of how to practically defend this, it's a lot more useful in today's fight.

The shoot and trip is so so straight forward, one step take down(OK, say two steps). So much faster than those Judo throws that has to 1) pull the guy in, 2) turn your body, 3) stick your butt out, 4) pull the guy over your butt!!!

To defend those Judo throws, all you have to do is sit lower the moment they turn the body, lower your center of gravity, the guy will have a very hard time to throw you already. No fancy move, just sit!!! Think of going #2 in the toilet!!! SIT!!!

The more effective way to defend Judo throws is before letting the guy to pull you close(way before he can turn his body), stiff arm to prevent him even pulling you close to him, that will negate the rest of the throw. We do that all the time. That is really brut strength, just stiff arm him!!! That's why I laugh when people start telling me you don't need strength. Try pulling the guy in to throw him if he just simply stiff arm you. Nothing flashy, just stiff arm and destroy your throw. We did that in Judo all the time.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The point is to win a fight, not flashy. Do those on the movie set.

The purpose of the "embrace throw" is to smash your opponent's head into the ground. In training, you let go your opponent. in fighting, you "smash" your opponent.

 

[Alan0354]

The purpose of the "embrace throw" is to smash your opponent's head into the ground. In training, you let go your opponent. in fighting, you "smash" your opponent.

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It might look good for show, it's not effective. I am pretty comfortable to say even though I have one year of Judo only, you are not going to throw me that easy because the defense is very simple like I described already. That's why if yo look at Judo competition, it's all tuck and pull, looks really messy, very seldom you see a clean throw. All dragging around.

One thing unlike what those "experts" said you don't need strength, in Judo sparring, it's brute force, all strength. If the person knows how to defend, it's really like tuck of wall pulling the guy in and literally pull the guy over. Strength is EVERYTHING. Those "no strength require" are just all trash talk. I won't even say about striking MA, for Judo, if you are strong, you are at a HUGE advantage. If you are weak, you can forget it. You think the opponent is an idiot standing straight and relax so you can pull him in, over your hip to throw him? AND don't tell me your stuff is different from Judo after all the videos you posted. Only one I never saw was the one with one knee. Judo don't have that fancy showoff stuff I learned.

One thing I have to give credit to Judo. It saved me from serious injury or maybe saved my life. I fell off the big truck. I somehow tucked my chin in, I landed on my back, I slapped the ground and broke the fall. I could feel my head snapped back and the hair touched the ground. But my head did not hit the ground. I got some bruises, but that's about it. Major damage was on my watch because I slapped the ground and the watch took the blunt of it.

Everyweek, I still go on concrete, lie on the floor, bounce my body up like 6" or so and drop back down and break the fall. I want to keep practicing as I get older and older to keep my bones strong. I do neck exercise to keep my neck strong to hold up my head. That's what I use my Judo now a days.

 

[geezer]

It might look good for show, it's not effective. I am pretty comfortable to say even though I have one year of Judo only, you are not going to throw me that easy because the defense is very simple like I described already. That's why if yo look at Judo competition, it's all tuck and pull, looks really messy, very seldom you see a clean throw. All dragging around.

One thing unlike what those "experts" said you don't need strength, in Judo sparring, it's brute force, all strength. If the person knows how to defend, it's really like tuck of wall pulling the guy in and literally pull the guy over. Strength is EVERYTHING. Those "no strength require" are just all trash talk. I won't even say about striking MA, for Judo, if you are strong, you are at a HUGE advantage. If you are weak, you can forget it. You think the opponent is an idiot standing straight and relax so you can pull him in, over your hip to throw him? AND don't tell me your stuff is different from Judo after all the videos you posted. Only one I never saw was the one with one knee. Judo don't have that fancy showoff stuff I learned.

One thing I have to give credit to Judo. It saved me from serious injury or maybe saved my life. I fell off the big truck. I somehow tucked my chin in, I landed on my back, I slapped the ground and broke the fall. I could feel my head snapped back and the hair touched the ground. But my head did not hit the ground. I got some bruises, but that's about it. Major damage was on my watch because I slapped the ground and the watch took the blunt of it.

Everyweek, I still go on concrete, lie on the floor, bounce my body up like 6" or so and drop back down and break the fall. I want to keep practicing as I get older and older to keep my bones strong. I do neck exercise to keep my neck strong to hold up my head. That's what I use my Judo now a days.

Alan, I myself, have no experience in Asian grappling and throwing arts like shuai-chiao and judo. You say have a year of judo, so in a debate, I would defer to your limited but legit experience ...even if my gut instinct was that you were mistaken.

Now you, with a year of judo experience, are trying "to school" John S. Wang, with over 40 years of experience as a renowned shuai-chiao instructor, former international competitor, and direct student of the legendary Chinese shuai-chiao champion, Chang Dong-sheng:

About

About our Shuai Chiao and Kung Fu teachers.

www.combatshuaichiaoatx.com

To be clear, I'm open minded and believe that anyone, regardless of experience, should be encouraged to ask questions, ...but not encouraged to make pronouncements! There's an old saying, attributed to Abraham Lincoln, but probably much older as it is well known in many languages and cultures:

Better to be quiet and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

One thing unlike what those "experts" said you don't need strength, in Judo sparring, it's brute force, all strength. If the person knows how to defend, it's really like tuck of wall pulling the guy in and literally pull the guy over. Strength is EVERYTHING.

It is true that developing strength is an important component of any combat sport, including Judo. The idea that strength and brute force are everything in Judo … no, just no. This is your impression based on a year of Judo training, which is barely scratching the surface of the art. If you had spent a longer time training, you would have encountered many circumstances where you found yourself thrown by someone smaller and weaker. You would also have come to realize that in many cases where it felt like a senior student was using superior strength, they were actually using superior structure, leverage, and body coordination to generate power.

I’m no great shakes as a judoka, but I have thrown many people who were stronger than I was. I’ve also been thrown by people who were smaller and more technical.

Don‘t get me wrong. I’m not saying that strength doesn’t matter. But it’s far from being “everything” or even the most important thing in Judo. It just feels that way to a beginner who hasn’t learned the nuances of technical sparring yet.

 

[Alan0354]

Alan, I myself, have no experience in Asian grappling and throwing arts like shuai-chiao and judo. You say have a year of judo, so in a debate, I would defer to your limited but legit experience ...even if my gut instinct was that you were mistaken.

Now you, with a year of judo experience, are trying "to school" John S. Wang, with over 40 years of experience as a renowned shuai-chiao instructor, former international competitor, and direct student of the legendary Chinese shuai-chiao champion, Chang Dong-sheng:

About

About our Shuai Chiao and Kung Fu teachers.

www.combatshuaichiaoatx.com

To be clear, I'm open minded and believe that anyone, regardless of experience, should be encouraged to ask questions, ...but not encouraged to make pronouncements! There's an old saying, attributed to Abraham Lincoln, but probably much older as it is well known in many languages and cultures:

Better to be quiet and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

I might not have enough experience, BUT being there and look at how the real sparring every class, I can see the trend. Watch the Judo competition, very seldom you see clean throw, nothing fancy, just dragging and tucking each other around. Same as even in striking fights but more so. One cannot just go on fancy nice looking. I think this has been proven in the last 30 years in UFC. The effective ones seldom if at all look fancy, just effective. Judo type is more so. You don't need years of experience to see that.

Go watch the Judo fights.

 

[Alan0354]

It is true that developing strength is an important component of any combat sport, including Judo. The idea that strength and brute force are everything in Judo … no, just no. This is your impression based on a year of Judo training, which is barely scratching the surface of the art. If you had spent a longer time training, you would have encountered many circumstances where you found yourself thrown by someone smaller and weaker. You would also have come to realize that in many cases where it felt like a senior student was using superior strength, they were actually using superior structure, leverage, and body coordination to generate power.

I’m no great shakes as a judoka, but I have thrown many people who were stronger than I was. I’ve also been thrown by people who were smaller and more technical.

Don‘t get me wrong. I’m not saying that strength doesn’t matter. But it’s far from being “everything” or even the most important thing in Judo. It just feels that way to a beginner who hasn’t learned the nuances of technical sparring yet.

If you are talking about two people having big difference in experience, that can be true. But if you put two people of same experience, strength is everything in throwing. If a bigger beginner do judo with a smaller black belt, I am sure the black belt can win. But if the person is only one or two belt higher, I don't think so if the lower belt is stronger.

I don't think people give enough credit to strength, it can make a big difference particularly on throwing MA. Moves that look fancy for audience usually are not effective as the down to earth technique. That's my biggest objection based on all the fights I've seen. For me, it's a HUGE TURN OFF when I see all the fancy moves in MA. Might be good for movies though.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If you are talking about two people having big difference in experience, that can be true. But if you put two people of same experience, strength is everything in throwing. If a bigger beginner do judo with a smaller black belt, I am sure the black belt can win. But if the person is only one or two belt higher, I don't think so if the lower belt is stronger.

If two competitors have the same skill level, but one is stronger, then the stronger will probably win.
If two competitors have the same strength, but one is more skilled, then the more skilled will probably win.
If two competitors have the same strength and skill, but one is faster, then the faster will probably win.
If two competitors have the same strength, speed, and skill, but one has better cardio, then the one with better cardio will probably win.
If two competitors have the same strength, skill, speed, and cardio, but one is more mentally focused, then the focused one will probably win.
Etc.

There are a lot of factors which go into a Judo match. Strength is an important factor, but only one consideration among many.

Watch the Judo competition, very seldom you see clean throw, nothing fancy, just dragging and tucking each other around.

This is literally the first YouTube result that came up for me when I searched for "Judo competition". Tons of beautiful, highly technical throws. All the competitors are great athletes - strong, fast, with great cardio, but I'd venture to say that the single biggest deciding factor in the winning throws was timing.

 

[Alan0354]

If two competitors have the same skill level, but one is stronger, then the stronger will probably win.
If two competitors have the same strength, but one is more skilled, then the more skilled will probably win.
If two competitors have the same strength and skill, but one is faster, then the faster will probably win.
If two competitors have the same strength, speed, and skill, but one has better cardio, then the one with better cardio will probably win.
If two competitors have the same strength, skill, speed, and cardio, but one is more mentally focused, then the focused one will probably win.
Etc.

There are a lot of factors which go into a Judo match. Strength is an important factor, but only one consideration among many.

This is literally the first YouTube result that came up for me when I searched for "Judo competition". Tons of beautiful, highly technical throws. All the competitors are great athletes - strong, fast, with great cardio, but I'd venture to say that the single biggest deciding factor in the winning throws was timing.

I scanned to about 13mins. The one relatively clean throw was at around 4:20 and the leg sweep at around 11:30. The others are more drag and rolling. Nothing like the videos in post #39 that started the whole thing. Those are for show, not real. The one that looks more impressive is at 9:00 when the one in white change direction backward to take the one in blue down. That, is one move I was thinking about last night. When the one in white try to throw, the blue lower the center of gravity and resist being pull forward, then the one in white turn and push backwards and trip the blue to win. That, is a good technique worth practicing, not the high knee sweep in post #39.

I think leg sweep at 11:30 is very effective, nothing fancy, very effective if you surprise the opponent. It is a one step move, not like the throw that you have to pull in, turn, throw over the hip.

Funny I was thinking the exact move last night that if you fool the guy by pulling forward over the hip, then turn around and push with leg tripping for take down. I am glad there's one in the video. Nothing fancy and flashy, but that's good.

Remember, the video is only snap shots of the last 5 seconds or so, if you watch the whole fight, it's more tuck and pull.

 

[isshinryuronin]

If a bigger beginner do judo with a smaller black belt, I am sure the black belt can win. But if the person is only one or two belt higher, I don't think so if the lower belt is stronger.

I've seen guys outweighed by 100+ lbs win in Sumo wrestling. It's not unusual to see. Many times, matches are won by sheer weight and power, but there are plenty of examples of the smaller guy using technique winning to clearly show size isn't everything. And when the "tiny" 260 pounder beats the 360 pounder, it's a beautiful thing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's what TKD emphasize, high knee before kicking. That's what I have been concentrate on doing front kicks lately. I don't do rooster stance, but I make sure I pick up the knee high before kicking. We practice hold onto the wall, do the kick in slow motion and hold the kick up high.

I just tried the rooster stance, it hurts my back, so I am not going to insist on it. I definitely can pick up and hold(short time right now) with thigh pass horizontal, not quite as high as the picture though. I'll wait until my back gets better to try it again.

The knee doesn't have to be super high. The rule I follow for myself is that if I want to to a front kick that's horizontal then I need to have enough strength to lift my knee beyond the horizontal point. I pretty much to this with most of my training. If I want to be able to do something at Level 5 then I need to train Level 6. If I want to do something at level 6 then I need to train at 7.

Being able to do something at level 10 may or may not have a benefit to the power of what I do at level 5.

When I ran track as a teen. Training for the 200 yard dash was to train by running 400 yards fast. I can't get good at running 200 yards if I only run 200 yards. I treat my martial arts that way.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The knee doesn't have to be super high.

If we look at this slow motion clip, when he does front kick, his knee raises very high. His front kick is like a downward curve.

private image hosting

 

[Alan0354]

The knee doesn't have to be super high. The rule I follow for myself is that if I want to to a front kick that's horizontal then I need to have enough strength to lift my knee beyond the horizontal point. I pretty much to this with most of my training. If I want to be able to do something at Level 5 then I need to train Level 6. If I want to do something at level 6 then I need to train at 7.

Being able to do something at level 10 may or may not have a benefit to the power of what I do at level 5.

When I ran track as a teen. Training for the 200 yard dash was to train by running 400 yards fast. I can't get good at running 200 yards if I only run 200 yards. I treat my martial arts that way.

For kicking, higher knee definitely helps to kick higher. I have been practicing in my own way, not the rooster stance.

Ha ha, I have been training balance in the shower!!! I pick up my foot, wash the foot toe by toe standing on one foot. That requires raising the knee pass horizontal so I can wash my toes!!! Then rinse the foot the exact same way, toe by toe!!! Then after shower, I dry my feet doing the same thing. Been doing this for like 3 years everyday!!

Ha ha, I believe in efficiency, it's too much time doing it as part of the exercise, it's long enough already. So I use daily stuffs and add some training into it. Like I practice squat all the way down when I squeegee the shower door with a squeegee, just about 10 times each day, but I do it every day.

Since the video I made, I have been raising the knee higher for front kick, I definitely can kick at least 3 to 4" higher than in the video and kick with more force.

I have to put kicking with the heel on hold, I think for whatever reason, that injured my back. But I am good with kicking with the ball of the feet, just raising the knee higher.

BTW, doing it in slow motion like you did on the bag helps also. Particularly now my back is still hurting, I do slower kicks.