MMA vs Boxing vs Kung Fu vs My Rambling

[Kung Fu Wang]

What is CMA?

Chinese martial art.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I believe the soft part of the CMA is used for defense and set up.

This how it was for me tonight using Taiji Chuan push hand concepts. I had to change from hard force to soft force so I could feel what he was trying to do and where there was an opportunity to borrow his force. Each time I did that it was in the context of defending arm control or countering the throw. I wished I recorded tonight's training because the counters to the hip throw were nice. It even surprised me. I still don't like ground fighting lol

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the counters to the hip throw ...

When your opponent applied hip throw on you, did he use

- waist wrap,
- under hook, or
- over hook?

Did he control your leading arm?

The reason that I ask because if your opponent used waist wrap, your would have at least 1 free arm. If your opponent did not control your leading arm, your 2nd arm was also free. Depending on whether you had 1 free arm, or 2 free arms, your effective counter could be different.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I still don't like ground fighting lol

That's why you should do it more. Find your weaknesses.

My biggest one is mental. I'm a pretty decent MMA dude. I was born for ground fighting. I even know Kung Fu. But get in my head and I'm toast.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When your opponent applied hip throw on you, did he use

- waist wrap,
- under hook, or
- over hook?

This is another reason why I wish I had a video, this stuff isn't going to stay in memory long lol.. I'm going to say that he used the under hook when he did the throw. It was the one thing he was determined to put me in. My elbow is a little sore from the over hooks and elbow locks he kept trying to put my right arm in. My left arm elbow is fine because he was always going for the under hook which I would often move towards a position for him to try to hip throw me. I was able to counter the throw or counter after the throw.

Did he control your leading arm?

The reason that I ask because if your opponent used waist wrap, your would have at least 1 free arm. If your opponent did not control your leading arm, your 2nd arm was also free. Depending on whether you had 1 free arm, or 2 free arms, your effective counter could be different.

My leading arm changes based on my footwork. But in this case as I play it through my mind this would be my leading arm.

Most of the time he would try to lock my right elbow so it was a long night of escaping that. From here I could use that free hand to lock his hip so he couldn't throw me. If I was too late to lock his hip then I would move the free hand across his chest some how to create a situation where one arm is around his neck the the other arm has an under hook. If I had a video then I could tell you exactly how I did it, but at the moment, it's just a feel where I recognize where I recognized the opportunity. I wouldn't be able to do this if I didn't have a free hand.

I always try to have one arm free. He keeps trying to control my right arm. He tried to get a head clinch but wasn't successful tonight.

That's why you should do it more. Find your weaknesses.

ha ha ha.. Still hate it. The thing I haven't had a chance to do yet is use striking against him as he tries to grapple. The only days I have an opportunity to do that is on Friday and Saturday. Those are the only days where I can do my striking.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think there's a lot more interaction between styles than many think.

I'm glad this is what you see. I think it will benefit TMA systems greatly. When I sparred against a Sanda school, I learned that zi wasn't training hard enough. I haven't looked back since then.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm going to say that he used the under hook when he did the throw.

Next time when your opponent tries to under hook you, you can raise your arm straight up and let him to under hook into the thin air.

Sometime to prevent a problem from happening is the best solution - no clinch, no take down.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Next time when your opponent tries to under hook you, you can raise your arm straight up and let him to under hook into the thin air.

Sometime to prevent a problem from happening is the best solution - no clinch, no take down.

I'll give that a try and I'll see what comes next. Don't get me killed lol...

 

[Tez3]

I believe the soft part of the CMA is used for defense and set up. When you use right hand to grab/pull your opponent's right arm to your right, you then use left hand to grab/pull your opponent's left arm to your left, use his left arm to jam his own right arm, so you can free your right hand to punch on his face. Your double grab/pull movement can be soft, but your punch is still hard.

This is what I find more difficult to do, I'm used to this. This is the founder's son.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

@Kung Fu Wang oh I forgot to tell you that I did circling arms with the Boxing guy. He didn't know what to make of it. He didn't even try to punch ha ha ha. I'll have to try it again with the mma guy again. I think I'm getting a better feel for it. I started with small arm circling and then moved into large arm circling. I might be able to use it with my long fist strikes. It feels like I may be able to hide my striking and grappling in the same movement.

The long guard and hand fighting exist in boxing, but they are more advanced, specialized tactics so your sparring partner may not have experienced them. (I'm assuming he's not a pro fighter.)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

took his comment to mean something different. Like when I spar against MMA it's not so I can learn how to do MMA. When I spar against BJJ it's not to learn BJJ but how to better understand Jow Ga in the context of applying it against BJJ. Like I literally told my sparring partner not to teach me any BJJ just so I'm not picking up and mixing BJJ concepts and thinking that they are Jow Ga concepts.

My ability to be successful with Jow Ga is directly related to me sparring against other people who don't use Jow Ga. This experience helps me to better understand Jow Ga kung fu.

Yep. Whether or not you incorporate elements of other systems, sparring with them should help you understand your own system better.

I've been lucky enough to spar with practitioners of Judo, Sambo, BJJ, other jujutsu styles, collegiate wrestling, Sumo, boxing, Muay Thai, multiple karate styles, multiple kung fu styles, Tae Kwon Do, MMA, kali, capoeira, taijutsu, Olympic fencing, and various forms of HEMA. All of it has made me better at what I do, whether or not I've borrowed anything from those arts.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I'm glad this is what you see. I think it will benefit TMA systems greatly. When I sparred against a Sanda school, I learned that zi wasn't training hard enough. I haven't looked back since then.

This is what's funny about MMA. It wasn't invented in the 90s. There are quite a few places in modern times that created mixed full competition fight mashups. China did it in the early 1900s, Brazil a little later on. In Thailand mixed competitions goes back a long time. Going back to Rome and Greece, we don't have much info on individual styles afaik, only which ones emerged victorious. The only stuff I know about gladiator combat is in old poems, books, and Spartacus.

So when people get into these style vs style battles I have to wonder why they think that never really happened until PPV was invented. The reality is nobody really cared until then, most people doing MAs we're happy in their own little bubble. It just wasn't common for people to mix arts by then.

Even Royce Gracie's challengers were powerful men, but they didn't see jiujitsu coming. And boy did it go viral back when the web was an infant.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The long guard and hand fighting exist in boxing, but they are more advanced, specialized tactics so your sparring partner may not have experienced them. (I'm assuming he's not a pro fighter.)

No he's just someone training boxing. He's not one of the Boxers who clearly had formal training. I don't think anyone has experienced Wangs circling long guard before.I gotta remember to try it on the mma guy next time.

All of good boxers that I've met in the past don't like to spar against anything outside of boxing. I'm hoping that the more advanced boxers there will be the exception. But if the are still active in competition then they won't be interested and will probably only spar with me if I only do boxing strikes.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

All of good boxers that I've met in the past don't like to spar against anything outside of boxing. I'm hoping that the more advanced boxers there will be the exception. But if the are still active in competition then they won't be interested and will probably only spar with me if I only do boxing strikes.

I've found that an MMA gym is the venue where you are most likely to find competitive boxers who are also willing to spar under other rulesets.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'll give that a try and I'll see what comes next. Don't get me killed lol...

When you raise your arm, you only give your opponent one option (wrap your waist), you can then use over hook to counter his waist wrapping arm. It's like to set up a trap to let your opponent to fall into it. The moment that he wraps his arm around your waist, the moment that you can use over hook to crack his elbow joint.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is what I find more difficult to do, I'm used to this. This is the founder's son.

CMA mixes striking art and throwing art. In order to do so, how to control your opponent's arm/arms is more emphasized.

This clip shows a 7 star praying mantis technique. The system is more a striking art, but has few takedowns in it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm not sure how to use Kung Fu against Muay Thai body kicks, but I could give you some insite on the fundamentals to using Muay Thai to defend body kicks.

I would think that would be an important starting point to developing a Kung Fu game plan. What the thais do at a basic level, is simple and effective. It also leaves a lot of room for creativity and adaptability.

If you want to know the most fundamental, basic way the Thais deal with these powerful kicks, let me know.

Sure. I'm interested in hearing more.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Sure. I'm interested in hearing more.

I will attempt to keep this simple. The two step process 1. Mitigate the kick 2. Counter with your own attack

Muay Thai defense is all about mitigating the attack, while staying in range to counter. There is very little backing away and circling out. So how do you mitigate it and stay in range?

What you don't want to do is reach out and block a solid body kick with your arms. Too much power on those kicks! In an emergency, if you don't have any time to do anything else, actually hold your arm close to your body. Let your whole body absorb the kick, instead of just your arm. But ideally instead of blocking it, instead you catch it, then counter.

The idea here is first deal with the power of the lock that has the potential to break your ribs. You do that by rotating slightly your upper body, to take it more on your back, instead of your ribs. Also slide your feet away from the kick. If the kick is coming to your left ribs, slide to the right. This takes a ton of power off the kick before it lands.

Then catch the kick under your arm. Once you have caught the kick, this is where it gets interesting. There are a lot of options here. But to keep it very simple, simply let the kick go. Catch and release.

Once you release their leg, they will momentarily not be in a perfect fighting stance, once their foot hits the floor. There is a split second here where you should be balanced and they are not. Also they are extremely close to you. This is the time you can hit them with any Kung Fu strike you want.

To recap 1. Turn slightly and slide away from the kick 2. Catch the kick 3. Release 4. Follow up with a strike

There are tons of variations, but that's some basic info.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I will attempt to keep this simple. The two step process 1. Mitigate the kick 2. Counter with your own attack

Muay Thai defense is all about mitigating the attack, while staying in range to counter. There is very little backing away and circling out. So how do you mitigate it and stay in range?

What you don't want to do is reach out and block a solid body kick with your arms. Too much power on those kicks! In an emergency, if you don't have any time to do anything else, actually hold your arm close to your body. Let your whole body absorb the kick, instead of just your arm. But ideally instead of blocking it, instead you catch it, then counter.

The idea here is first deal with the power of the lock that has the potential to break your ribs. You do that by rotating slightly your upper body, to take it more on your back, instead of your ribs. Also slide your feet away from the kick. If the kick is coming to your left ribs, slide to the right. This takes a ton of power off the kick before it lands.

Then catch the kick under your arm. Once you have caught the kick, this is where it gets interesting. There are a lot of options here. But to keep it very simple, simply let the kick go. Catch and release.

Once you release their leg, they will momentarily not be in a perfect fighting stance, once their foot hits the floor. There is a split second here where you should be balanced and they are not. Also they are extremely close to you. This is the time you can hit them with any Kung Fu strike you want.

To recap 1. Turn slightly and slide away from the kick 2. Catch the kick 3. Release 4. Follow up with a strike

There are tons of variations, but that's some basic info.

This is already part of Kung fu. San Shou leg catching is like this, but you don't let the leg go. Once you have an opponents leg you have the whole package. With superior core power and balance, if I catch your leg you're hitting the mat hard.

And from experience it's a lot harder than any single or double leg. Impact wise it's up there with landing from ippon seoi nage.

You don't see it in Muay Thai so much because of the more restricted rule set.

 

[Jared Traveler]

This is already part of Kung fu. San Shou leg catching is like this, but you don't let the leg go. Once you have an opponents leg you have the whole package. With superior core power and balance, if I catch your leg you're hitting the mat hard.

And from experience it's a lot harder than any single or double leg. Impact wise it's up there with landing from ippon seoi nage.

You don't see it in Muay Thai so much because of the more restricted rule set.

Good video. Looks like San Shou guys have been studying Muay Thai. With that said, letting go and releasing it a beginner technique. There are many variations including yanking first(to further disrupt the balance) before letting go and striking. Also several sweeps are taught after grabbing and retaining the leg.