New kung fu training experiment

[lklawson]

If you punch with your

- leading hand, that's jab.

Unless you're boxing in a London Prize Ring or Broughton style, in which case it's a Straight Lead, Lead-off, or Straight Left.

- back hand that's cross (if it's a straight punch).

Unless you're boxing in a London Prize Ring or Broughton style, in which case it's a Straight Right or Straight Rear.

The only "cross" was the Cross-Counter.

But, I admit, I'm just being a bit of a pedant (which is a polite way of saying "knowitall douche" ).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Unless you're boxing in a London Prize Ring or Broughton style, in which case it's a Straight Lead, Lead-off, or Straight Left.

Unless you're boxing in a London Prize Ring or Broughton style, in which case it's a Straight Right or Straight Rear.

The only "cross" was the Cross-Counter.

But, I admit, I'm just being a bit of a pedant (which is a polite way of saying "knowitall douche" ).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I think

- straight lead,
- straight rear,

are better terms.

I have always believed that

- The technique name is not important.
- There is no standard way to do a certain technique.

 

[lklawson]

I think

- straight lead,
- straight rear,

are better terms.

I have always believed that

- The technique name is not important.
- There is no standard way to do a certain technique.

Well, yes, you're quite right. But then I couldn't look like a knowitall douche and what's the fun in that?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Danny T]

Isolate the application you want the student to use. Have them do just that vs a particular attack. Start slow and easy. Slowly increase the force and speed of the attack. Add in a different attack that must be dealt with in combination. Again drill it slowly or only as fast and forceful as the student can do it properly. Then free lance the attacks. Drill another application in the same manner building the students skills. Free spar it with a emphasis on the application/s you have been drilling. Review and critique. Repeat as many times it takes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you punch with your

- leading hand, that's jab.
- back hand that's cross (if it's a straight punch).

IMO, there is no need to separate "cross" from "reverse punch".

I can punch with my leading hand multiple ways and those punches would never be classified as a jab in anyone's book.
Our reverse punch doesn't cross. It's not thrown like a cross and it doesn't land like a cross. Hence the term, reverse punch.

Just because I throw a punch from my lead hand doesn't make it a jab.

 

[clfsean]

I can punch with my leading hand multiple ways and those punches would never be classified as a jab in anyone's book.
Our reverse punch doesn't cross. It's not thrown like a cross and it doesn't land like a cross. Hence the term, reverse punch.

So you never throw any kind of set up strike, or distance measuring strike or quick punch that's out & back? Every strike is full bore, fully committed, even when thrown in a straight line? There's never a chance? It is strictly only one of three possibilities?

because I throw a punch from my lead hand doesn't make it a jab.

Nor does it not make it a jab... just as a jab can come from the rear hand depending on application.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So you never throw any kind of set up strike, or distance measuring strike or quick punch that's out & back? Every strike is full bore, fully committed, even when thrown in a straight line? There's never a chance? It is strictly only one of three possibilities?



Nor does it not make it a jab... just as a jab can come from the rear hand depending on application.

I throw set up strikes but not with a jab. I have a wide range of things that I can use to set up a strike without using a jab. I also don't measure distances with a jab. One of the reasons I hold my lead had in the guard position is so I can measure distance. I also use my kicks to measure distance too. If you could see all of the videos of me sparring against your guys, you may get a total of 4 jabs total out of the total number of Sanda guys I sparred with on both visits. I sparred against 3 people back to back and only threw 1 jab and it was a weak one meant to cause my opponent to throw a punch back.

Every strike that I throw is controlled so I can pull the power off if I need to. I do this for the safety of my sparring partner. I also don't try to pull my fist back on every straight punch that I throw, hence not making it a jab. If you were to see all the videos of me sparring against the Sanda guys then you will see that what I say is true. The only time I throw a lot of jabs is for the purpose of training my Jow Ga brothers. Most people use a jab, so in training when I'm feeling lazy, I'll just throw a lot of jabs so they can learn how to deal with them. The likely hood that we'll fight another Jow Ga student in the street or in competition is very rare, so I'll throw attacks that they are most likely to come across. My training requires me to learn how to beat the jab without using a jab. I stop jabbing when I'm working on my techniques for myself.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here's an update on how the experiment is going.
So far there have been 2 results from banning jabs during sparring.
1. Freeze - I always like this one because it really brings home just how dependent a person is on using the jab. With the freeze the student will actually stand there "frozen" as if the student is trying to figure out how to attack. It's kung fu so starting with a kick is optional but it doesn't seem to click.

2. All In - This is the student that can face the fear of uncertainty that exists when trying something new. This student is able to put at least 60% of trust in the technique and just do it. There is still some hesitation but not to the extent that it prevents the student from at least trying.

In the specific case I'm dealing with 2 students. A woman who has been taking the kung fu for about a year and her boyfriend who has been taking kung fu for about 2 months. The woman is having trouble in using the techniques, basically not trusting the techniques. The boyfriend had his first day of kung fu sparring last week. He started out the same with a bunch of jabs so I took the jabs out of the equation. He did really good with trying to use the technique, he didn't hesitate much in trying to use the techniques and I could see him trying to workout just how to deploy it in sparring. I think he'll make a good video subject to show the progress of learning kung fu, the before and after. While the technique he did was horribly done, it was still good enough to start the learning process of gaining a deeper understanding of using the technique.

The female student that was mentioned is going to take more work. I'll know more this week when we do sparring. I'm hoping to see more willingness and effort to try from the female student this week. There are 2 more students that will go through the same process. As for the female student I'm probably will be trying some of the suggestions that were given here. When I remove the jabs from sparring she gets frustrated with herself and it tends to make the freezing issue longer than it should be.

 

[DaveB]

This is going to be a really unpopular suggestion, but I'd cut out sparring altogether and focus on solo air combinations with a strong focus on refining technique.

I agree 100% with your position: that the students need to be using the methods of the system or they are not doing kung fu.

However I think what you are experiencing with your students is at least a little to do with the blending of more modern quick fix ideas with a traditional style, in that there was a reason for making a student train intensively in basics before allowing them to practice fighting.

The drilling of forms and solo combinations ingrains how to move into the students muscle memory, over-writing instinctive and cultural norms with the foundation of that system. (Not to mention the strength and stamina building of that type of training).

It sounds like a good 3-6 months of solid technical work, followed by a gradual introduction of partner drills; first fixed one step, then fixed continuous back and forth, then semi free... Where the emphasis is not on finishing but on the systems entry techniques: so responding to a jab, closing distance, attacking combinations and positioning before and after defence.

As the drills become less fixed you can check whether they are slipping into old habits or applying the lessons learned and following the fixed movements with combinations/positioning that they learned earlier.

Doing it this way creates a systematic progression of learning movement, ingraining movement , applying movement and finally fighting with the movement. Sparring becomes the final testing ground for combining all the lessons about position, entry, combination and counter attack.

I apologise if this came off as a bit of a lecture, I don't intend to cause any offence, but I do think that sometimes we throw the baby out with the bath water in the quest for effectiveness. But if we're not preparing for a fight Night, what's the rush.

 

[JowGaWolf]

focus on solo air combinations with a strong focus on refining technique.

We do this as well. It's like kung fu shadow boxing. This was something that actually helped me to learn how to tear apart the forms and to deploy the techniques in a fight / sparring scenario.

I apologise if this came off as a bit of a lecture, I don't intend to cause any offence, but I do think that sometimes we throw the baby out with the bath water in the quest for effectiveness. But if we're not preparing for a fight Night, what's the rush.

No need. We already do all that you are suggestion since day one. The only new thing that we added maybe 5 months ago was to use free flowing combinations similar to the solo air combination that you are talking about it. The idea is to use the techniques that come "natural" to the students and to build from that. For example, our first form has about 35 unique techniques. Out of the 35 techniques that the student learns, trains and drills, the student will start with the techniques that feels the most comfortable to do. The student will do those combinations in a free flowing combination drills, similar to the air combinations that you are talking about. This helps the student to become more comfortable with the techniques. The only difference is that the techniques can't be used the same way as it's used in the same combination as used in the form. If form combination is 1,2,3,4, then they have to use the same techniques in a different combination. say 2,4,4,1 This is to prevent them from trying to fight using the form.

 

[DaveB]

Interesting. That wouldn't really work for me because of how I view forms.

In my study the techniques are far far less important than the combination. This leads me to actively try to use the set pieces of the form but with modifications and supplemented movements that carry the same underlying idea

Once I can do that then I can leave the techniques behind altogether and just fight with the ideas of the form.

Perhaps for your problem student this might be a way forward. You mentioned that she froze when barred from jabbing. Making her attack and defend with form combinations might be a way of filling that void and giving a clear template for her to follow. A kind of spoon feeding almost.

How long do your students spend on solo training before progressing to sparring?

 

[JowGaWolf]

How long do your students spend on solo training before progressing to sparring?

On the average more students spend time solo training and never get into sparring. Before we added the dedicated sparring day, we would spar maybe 3 times a year. The majority of the week is spent on drilling, application, and learning parts of various forms. Even on the sparring day only an hour is dedicated to actually sparring

I don't know if this has any significance, but the woman who freezes will from time to time display movement that is better suited for a movie. She does the "ready stance" similar to what people would expect from movies, so I'm always telling her to get rid of the "movie kung fu". I remind her that Jow Ga kung fu isn't beautiful like they show in the movies. I didn't think about it until now, but maybe she's fighting the image of how she sees kung fu in the movies vs how it's really done. It could be a conflict where she's trying to use the movement of what she sees in the movies and trying to apply that movement to Jow Ga. I'll have to watch for it the next time we do the drills.