MMA & the Olympics

[MJS]

Yes Judo has been altered from it original form. What you see in the Olympic is not the original Kano Jiu-Jitsu or Kano Jiu-Do.

And not huffy at all. Based on your statement "I don't do TKD" I just found it quite profound that you would example something that you don't do. I would have stated the same thing if you had instered any art in place of TKD.

Just going on what I see and hear from people. Just because someone doesnt do an art, doesnt mean that they cant make an observation. I'll defer to Steves post.

 

[ATC]

Just going on what I see and hear from people. Just because someone doesnt do an art, doesnt mean that they cant make an observation. I'll defer to Steves post.

That is my point. Just because someone says something, if you don't know you can only say they said it. But to agree with what someone says without any first hand knowledge just can't be done.

I saw this girl and she was gorgeous!!! No one can agree, disagree or have any type of opinion without also seeing the girl. That is an over simplified analogy but it fits none the less. All anyone without seeing can say is that I said she was gorgeous.

This holds true for anything. Also I would have to know something about the comparative also. Because if I only know the one thing then how can I compare it to anything other than what I know.

This is why these arguments are silly but fun at best and can't be taken seriously. Not many people are really qualified to judge but do without any knowledge of what it is they are judging. They may know one thing but not another but somehow they can give an opinion.

Yes everyone can have an opinion but even opinions require some knowledge. No one can make an opinion worth anything without it.

 

[Josh Oakley]

That is my point. Just because someone says something, if you don't know you can only say they said it. But to agree with what someone says without any first hand knowledge just can't be done.

I saw this girl and she was gorgeous!!! No one can agree, disagree or have any type of opinion without also seeing the girl. That is an over simplified analogy but it fits none the less. All anyone without seeing can say is that I said she was gorgeous.

This holds true for anything. Also I would have to know something about the comparative also. Because if I only know the one thing then how can I compare it to anything other than what I know.

This is why these arguments are silly but fun at best and can't be taken seriously. Not many people are really qualified to judge but do without any knowledge of what it is they are judging. They may know one thing but not another but somehow they can give an opinion.

Yes everyone can have an opinion but even opinions require some knowledge. No one can make an opinion worth anything without it.

You have quite a compelling armument, to wit, I believe you argued convingingly.

 

[Josh Oakley]

My argument is that entering MMA into the olympic world would not change normal MMA any more than Olympic Taekwondo changed traditional Taekwondo, or any other olympic martial art has changed the traditional martial art. Boxing, wrestling, taekwondo, fencing... all have both olympic and non-olympic counterparts, both continue to grow in their own ways, and often differ from one another.

But I would also argue that olympic MMA would possibly be less entertaining than professional MMA, in the same vein as my prior argument.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

My argument is that entering MMA into the olympic world would not change normal MMA any more than Olympic Taekwondo changed traditional Taekwondo, or any other olympic martial art has changed the traditional martial art. Boxing, wrestling, taekwondo, fencing... all have both olympic and non-olympic counterparts, both continue to grow in their own ways, and often differ from one another.

But I would also argue that olympic MMA would possibly be less entertaining than professional MMA, in the same vein as my prior argument.

Good point. I often hear that tkd has 'changed' since its inception to the olympics. It has added another dimension to the art that some clubs focus on but it has not changed traditional tkd at all. I train at a traditional tkd club and absolutely nothing has changed since tkd became an olympic sport so I think even if mma did join the olympics there would still be plenty of places around teaching the 'old school' stuff.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The point isn't whether Olympic TKD is a good sport. It's fine, if you're into it. The point is whether the changes in TKD as a whole largely due to its involvement in the Olympics has been a good thing or a bad thing. And continuing on, whether good or bad, would it have a similar affect on MMA?

Personally, I think it's been bad only because ultimately the reputation of TKD on the whole has suffered outside the sport. Right or wrong, TKD has cultivated a reputation as the quintessential "kiddie", afterschool daycare MA.

I agree with your conclusion, but do not believe that olympic inclusion is the cause.

The process that led to the perception of taekwondo as an after-school program began before olympic inclusion. About the only thing that olympic inclusion did in this area was to be used by commercial McDojangs as yet another marketing tool.

Commercially oriented schools use everything as a revenue generator. Look at what has been done with the black belt.

If olympic TKD being practiced in average schools that touted it as "olympic" always looked as serious as the practices in a real boxing gym, people would respect the training and dedication even if they didn't think of it as practical SD.

Ultimately, if you are going to tout the olympics, run your classes as if the students were potential olympic hopefuls make them work hard. The kids on the football team may be in an "after school" program, but they're running hard and practicing outside in full gear. Even with football camps and such, nobody perceives NFL football as a wimpy kiddie sport.

Because the training standards for MMA as a competitive sport are already well established, I don't see olympic inclusion as being an issue in that regard.

What I would see as an issue is potential monkeying with the rules to make it more television friendly to a wider audience and MMA gyms then altering their curriculum and sparring to accommodate it.

Daniel

 

[MJS]

That is my point. Just because someone says something, if you don't know you can only say they said it. But to agree with what someone says without any first hand knowledge just can't be done.

I saw this girl and she was gorgeous!!! No one can agree, disagree or have any type of opinion without also seeing the girl. That is an over simplified analogy but it fits none the less. All anyone without seeing can say is that I said she was gorgeous.

This holds true for anything. Also I would have to know something about the comparative also. Because if I only know the one thing then how can I compare it to anything other than what I know.

This is why these arguments are silly but fun at best and can't be taken seriously. Not many people are really qualified to judge but do without any knowledge of what it is they are judging. They may know one thing but not another but somehow they can give an opinion.

Yes everyone can have an opinion but even opinions require some knowledge. No one can make an opinion worth anything without it.

Have you ever said it? According to Steve, he's seen you say it on here. Go to YT...all you see is sport TKD. Is there anything else out there aside from the sport side? If so, where is it? I take it reading things on here, and seeing video clips on youtube, isnt good enough? Do I have to drive around to every TKD school in my area, to confirm?

I think we're a bit off topic here anyways. I used TKD, you saw that and ran with it. Like I said, you're very into TKD, your kids are, and thats all fine. I still think I hit a bit of a nerve though.

As for your good looking girl statement....you could see her and think shes great, I could see her and think shes ugly. I dont have to personally know her to determine that she's ugly. Those are our opinions.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Have you ever said it? According to Steve, he's seen you say it on here. Go to YT...all you see is sport TKD. Is there anything else out there aside from the sport side? If so, where is it? I take it reading things on here, and seeing video clips on youtube, isnt good enough? Do I have to drive around to every TKD school in my area, to confirm?

I think we're a bit off topic here anyways. I used TKD, you saw that and ran with it. Like I said, you're very into TKD, your kids are, and thats all fine. I still think I hit a bit of a nerve though.

As for your good looking girl statement....you could see her and think shes great, I could see her and think shes ugly. I dont have to personally know her to determine that she's ugly. Those are our opinions.

I respect your opinion but please dont use youtube as a guide. Most people training traditional tkd have better things to do than upload vids of themselves on youtube. I learnt a long time ago not to "learn" about anything by using youtube as a research tool. I train traditional tkd at a club with over 4000 members, I am tkd through and through and yet wouldnt even know the ruleset for "sport" tkd, and Im not alone.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Do you think that TKD as a whole has a good reputation, either within or without the MA community? I can think of some TKD people here and in real life whom I am guessing run top notch programs. But they are among the people who lament the most about how commercialism, selling out for profit and inclusion in the Olympics have led to the current state of TKD in the world.

Edit to add: At some point, how you measure success or failure needs to be stated, as well. I mean, it's clear that there are many people who are perfectly happy with how TKD is going and don't see any reason to change a thing.
At some point, we have to make decisions about credibility. No one can know everything about anything. It's all different degrees of ignorance. I'm more ignorant of TKD politics and history than other people.

But in a situation like this, lay opinions are relevant. What people who aren't fans of MMA think of MMA is relevant because that speaks directly to its marketability in a venue like the Olympics. In the same way, lay opinions of TKD are relevant, ie, what effect the Olympics have had on public perception of the art of TKD.

Do I think tkd has a good reputation either within or without the martial arts community? Well outside the martial arts community it obviously has a great reputation or it wouldnt be growing at the rate it is. I regularly have people ask me about tkd because they want to get either themselves or their children into it. Schools are even looking into adding it into their physical education program and they wouldnt be adding things with a bad reputation. Within the martial arts community its hard to say because most (not all) of the tkd bashing comes from people who havent actually done tkd and I find it hard to accept bashing of an art from someone who hasnt actually trained in it. Actually most martial artists Ive heard bashing tkd couldnt even tell you the difference between ITF and WTF tkd. I would also say that karate cops just as much of a bashing from other martial artists.

 

[Jade Tigress]

ATTENTION ALL USERS

Please return to the original topic.

Pamela Piszczek
MT Asst Admin

 

[ATC]

Have you ever said it? According to Steve, he's seen you say it on here. Go to YT...all you see is sport TKD. Is there anything else out there aside from the sport side? If so, where is it? I take it reading things on here, and seeing video clips on youtube, isnt good enough? Do I have to drive around to every TKD school in my area, to confirm?

I think we're a bit off topic here anyways. I used TKD, you saw that and ran with it. Like I said, you're very into TKD, your kids are, and thats all fine. I still think I hit a bit of a nerve though.

As for your good looking girl statement....you could see her and think shes great, I could see her and think shes ugly. I dont have to personally know her to determine that she's ugly. Those are our opinions.

As I stated that is a very simple analogy, but you can't know nothing about her, you have to see her and that is knowing something.

Just because you see some clips or hear someone that does not do TKD say some things really qualifies your opinion?

Where is it you ask, well it is out there. Just because you haven't gone out there to see it does not mean something does not exist. I can tell you that just practicing the sport of Olympic TKD is only a small part of what we do. Most of the adult in our dojang won't even every compete at any tournament so they don't do it at all. We do as much SD and Hapkido as we do kicking. We also infuse a lot of boxing hand techniques into our training as well, not to mention the endless classes on forms and basics.

Yes, there are many schools that only train Olympic sport TKD but there are also many schools that also practice much much more.

I see many Wushu demos and tournaments that just look like a dynamic dance to me but since I have no knowledge of Wushu I know I am not qualified to really say what it is.

TKD is one of the most populous arts practiced so it is out there the most to be seen. Just like any art most people are crap at it. Not everyone can be good and most are not. Only a select few are ever really good at anything.

I can bet dimes to dollars that most people that post here on MT are crap at what they do, but that does not make the art crap.

I can say the same for just about every other art out there. YT has many clips of crappy people doing just about every art. Now those arts are not in the Olympics so no one says anything but I see no difference. But there is a difference, I don't do them so I really don't know if what I see is just crappy people or a crappy art so I won't form an opinion because I don't know.

I have done some other stuff and each are good but all have limitations. But none suck. Only the people suck.

They Olympics water down nothing, something new is only created, what use to exist still exist.

 

[Steve]

Have you ever said it? According to Steve, he's seen you say it on here. Go to YT...all you see is sport TKD. Is there anything else out there aside from the sport side? If so, where is it? I take it reading things on here, and seeing video clips on youtube, isnt good enough? Do I have to drive around to every TKD school in my area, to confirm?

Just to be clear, ATC has acknowledged that there is a difference between sport TKD and traditional TKD for self defense.

Okay. couple of questions here. Let's presume that MMA is going to be in the next Olympics. They're introducing it. What ruleset is used? What techniques will be illegal? Elbows? Knees to a downed opponent? Soccer kicks?

Let's just say, hypothetically speaking, that MMA IS an Olympic sport. All of us doomsayers... what's it look like? How bad do we think it will be?

Personally, I think that the following rules would be instituted in order to make it more palatable for the general public. Elbows are out. Knees are in while standing, but out on the ground. No soccer kicks. A strict time limit on ground fighting along the lines of modern Judo, where constant progress toward a submission must be made or they get stood up. Ground and pound gets functionally lost as a result as does any real advanced, technical groundfighting.

Bigger gloves and head gear, too.

 

[ATC]

Have you ever said it? According to Steve, he's seen you say it on here.

I don't think he has said that.

 

[ATC]

Just to be clear, ATC has acknowledged that there is a difference between sport TKD and traditional TKD for self defense.

Okay. couple of questions here. Let's presume that MMA is going to be in the next Olympics. They're introducing it. What ruleset is used? What techniques will be illegal? Elbows? Knees to a downed opponent? Soccer kicks?

Let's just say, hypothetically speaking, that MMA IS an Olympic sport. All of us doomsayers... what's it look like? How bad do we think it will be?

Personally, I think that the following rules would be instituted in order to make it more palatable for the general public. Elbows are out. Knees are in while standing, but out on the ground. No soccer kicks. A strict time limit on ground fighting along the lines of modern Judo, where constant progress toward a submission must be made or they get stood up. Ground and pound gets functionally lost as a result as does any real advanced, technical groundfighting.

Bigger gloves and head gear, too.

I think that none of that would have any affect on any of the MMA orgs. The Olympic MMA would be just that, Olympic MMA. Something that happens once every 4 years. MMA is year round, on TV so it is clearly seen by the masses.

Sport Judo and sport TKD are not on TV and what you see in the Olympics is all the public really sees. Yet TKD in a real Dojang has not changed.

I don't think MMA in the Olympic would change anything about the MMA that we know of today. Just like Olympic boxing is different from pro boxing as is basketball and so on. You would just have Olympic MMA.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Let's just say, hypothetically speaking, that MMA IS an Olympic sport. All of us doomsayers... what's it look like? How bad do we think it will be?

Personally, I think that the following rules would be instituted in order to make it more palatable for the general public. Elbows are out. Knees are in while standing, but out on the ground. No soccer kicks. A strict time limit on ground fighting along the lines of modern Judo, where constant progress toward a submission must be made or they get stood up. Ground and pound gets functionally lost as a result as does any real advanced, technical groundfighting.

Bigger gloves and head gear, too.

That is about what I would expect. Is it doom? Hard to say. The major question is how much an olympic rule set would influence MMA outside of the olympics on a broad scale.

Daniel

 

[MJS]

ATC,

I'm assuming you can read, but apparently you missed the return to topic note. Guess ya gotta get in one last dig because on cracked on your art. I'll be sure to RTM your other off topic posts as well, but if you wish to continue the off topic debate, lets take it to PM.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Lets focus on the topic please.

 

[Tez3]

I think that none of that would have any affect on any of the MMA orgs. The Olympic MMA would be just that, Olympic MMA. Something that happens once every 4 years. MMA is year round, on TV so it is clearly seen by the masses.

Sport Judo and sport TKD are not on TV and what you see in the Olympics is all the public really sees. Yet TKD in a real Dojang has not changed.

I don't think MMA in the Olympic would change anything about the MMA that we know of today. Just like Olympic boxing is different from pro boxing as is basketball and so on. You would just have Olympic MMA.

We have both Judo and TKD on television, recently too, the World Championships for Judo, and I think it was the Europeans for TKD only last week. They are on Sky and Eurosport. Judo was expecially good, saw armbars and chokes as submissions which I haven't seen in the Olympic Judo. TKd was the Irish dancing type though not so good. Watched the the Golden Glory kickboxing from Amsterdam on Saturday night, MC was Bas Rutten, very cool.

Oh guys at what point can I say 'I told you so' about arguing not being good? :lol2:

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think to a degeree this has stayed on topic. If you suggest anything becoming an olympic sport the obvious reaction of most people is if the sport will become "watered down" due to olympic involvement. It is therefore only natural that people will use examples of sports that have been accepted into the olympics to use as a guide as to how they have been affected. It is interesting to hear the misconceptions (particularly regarding tkd) as the only tkd people see is the 'olympic style'. I think it can be a real eye opener to some to realise that what you see in the olympics is only a very small part of tkd. This can then be related back to mma and what changes could/should be made if it were to seek olympic involvement and more importantly, how it may change people's perceptions of mma, such as what has happened with tkd. Sorry if Ive drifted off topic.

 

[mook jong man]

Just look at how synchronized swimming has become watered down .

I long for the old days when they used try and drown each other , give each other nipple cripples underwater and other dirty tricks like pinching together the other girl's nose clip.

Its a far cry from the brutal sport it used to be .