MMA & the Olympics

[MJS]

The problem with MMA at the moment is the general public's ignorance of it and as these are the people any Olympic city has to sell the tickets to there would be big problems. Talking to friends who were at the UFC in London the other night a great many people are turning up expecting a huge bloodfest of what we call car parks fights. One friend was sat with half a dozen empty seats beside him when half way through the night some lads came in and sat down, some English the others Irish. They asked him if there were any English fighters on it, (der!) then when Bisping had caught his opponent in the unmentionables the Irish guys laughed and said they knew the English had no balls! he had to point out that Bisping was the English guy, his opponent wasn't. There were loads of chavs dressed in Tap Out who had no idea what they were looking at booing every time a fight went to the floor and shouting out the most stupid comments showing their ignorance of what they were looking at. We don't get these idiots coming to any other promotions just the UFC, I guess thats because of the name. The night wasn't a sell out anyway, it never is. One wit on an MMA site suggested that to fill the empty seats the UFC trawl through the local pubs offering free tickets. Now thats fanciful but the UFC has moved people from the furthest away seats before on shows here to the cageside to fill them up so it looks better on television.
Other friends got fed up of the chavs asking them questions which showed they had no knowledge of MMA at all.

These aren't the people nobody wants at the Olympics and we don't want people thinking these are the normal people who follow the sport, these are the UFC chavs.

On the other side you have the 'anti blood sport' types who want MMA banned and would be horrified if it was even suggested it goes into the Olympics.

As in Judo which has decided it's Olympic compettion has to have spectator appeal ie lots of throws and less 'boring' groundwork I imagine we'd end up with some sort of kickboxing with the occasional throw and groundwork not longer than a minute or two, perhaps a rule saying subs within a minute or be stood up! The standard 4 oz gloves would be changed to those awful padded training ones, head guards, body shields, shin and foot pads compulsory, short rounds. Refs stopping at fight at the slightest hint of blood. Definitely no cage or ring, mats like Judo and TKD with judges at each corner. Probably two refs instead of one. Points given when an opponent touches the other, no KOs, maybe even disqualification if you draw blood! perhaps even semi contact or no contact at all lol!

If we look at some of the forums, we'll often see MMA folks who do what you described about the folks at the London show. These people, along with the other uneducated ones, ie: the ones who think its nothing but a blood-bath, are the proverbial 'bad apples that ruin the bunch,' IMO. I mean, its kinda hard to judge something if ya dont know what it is.

I for one, enjoy the UFC. My wife can attest to the rather large collection of fights that I have. A few years ago, I went to an event here in CT, and enjoyed it very much. Even got a few autographs (Randy and Tim) and saw Chuck. Good times!

As for the watering down....I'll use TKD as an example. People bash it left and right, saying its nothing but a sport, yet they talk about the combat side of it. While I dont do TKD, I can't help but agree with those that say its nothing but a sport. If there is in fact a 'combat' side to it, its rare that you see it. So, if the art of TKD was 'watered down' for the sake of sport, the Olympics, etc., it seems to me that if MMA was to enter the Olympics, it would probably be as you described.

 

[Tez3]

Chavs should all be put down lol! See them on You Tube and cringe, we do. The blight of the UK.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav

It's not the UFC as such it's what it attracts in our cities plus the UK shows don't generally get the same standard of fighters from the States as those on home soil. We simply don't get the big names, we do get local fighters which is good but the chavs are woefully ignorant of them too! the other side is that the tickets are a hundred times more expensive than any UK show and money is tight for normal working people.

If the rules were left alone for the Olympics we could still be left with only a few countries competing, France has only just made it legal, I know Australia has some very good ones, Japan obviously, Russia has good fighters as does Poland, they tend to be quite ferocious. Germany has fighters and fight shows, The Netherlands too but not sure about any other Europeans. The Balkans are producing fighters as is Norway and Spain but I'm not sure there's enough worldwide interest to make the Olympic commitees think it's a worldwide sport. North America has enough Canadians and Americans but it may only be Brazil that has any in South America? If the African countries don't have fighters (though I do know a couple who fight here) it won't be accepted.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Should the MMA be part of the Olympics? I personally think so.. What are your thoughts?

-Scout

Should? I don't know. It certainly has plenty of merit.

I'd trade out quite a few of what I consider to be pointless events for MMA.

Probably won't happen though. Too technical for most people to follow: once it goes to the ground, the average person cannot follow it.

Daniel

 

[Steve]

Absolutely! I'd like to see sports in the Olympics that can be trained and competed for cheaply! That way as many countries could compete as possible, there's no way that small developing countries can compete against the bigger, rich ones. I actually think shin kicking would be a good sport (yes, it's a real one) or cheese rolling, definitely cricket though. Not golf though, never golf! Love to see Kabbadi in though, it's like a martial arts ball game! the British Forces have teams, so we might win some medals for a change! Rugby sevens would be a good one especially if the Kiwis win and do their Haka bare chested as they did last week after winnng the Commonwealth Games Gold....wow just wow!

Going to have to go and lie down now.......................

MMA is actually one sport that can be trained very cheaply. While it can certainly be done high tech, there are lots of good gyms here (and I presume in the UK) that operate with very little in the way of high tech equipment. A couple thai bags, mits, couple of wrestling mats maybe. Ivan Saliverry's gym up in Seattle is very simple. He's got a boxing ring, wrestling mats, several heavy bags and a couple of speed bags.

Frankly, the rest of your suggestions sound silly. I can't tell whether you're being serious or not, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you were joking.

Guess the nudge was missed earlier by Jade. Come on folks, lets chill k?

Anyways...in the early UFCs there was a limited rule set. Today, we see a much larger list of "Do Not Do's" with fighter safety in mind. So....assuming that MMA did make it in, what changes would there be?

They'd have to make it more fun to watch. Most of the changes in Judo are to make it more accessible to the lay audience. So, I'd expect time limits on the floor... like judo. If there's not any continuous action on the floor, stand them up. So, the ground game would, I'm guessing, move to favor wrestlers who get points for the take down. Then both sides would stall until they get stood back up. Ultimately, I'd say it would end up looking a lot like San Shou.

That being said, I think I'd prefer to see San Shou represented.

If we look at some of the forums, we'll often see MMA folks who do what you described about the folks at the London show. These people, along with the other uneducated ones, ie: the ones who think its nothing but a blood-bath, are the proverbial 'bad apples that ruin the bunch,' IMO. I mean, its kinda hard to judge something if ya dont know what it is.

I for one, enjoy the UFC. My wife can attest to the rather large collection of fights that I have. A few years ago, I went to an event here in CT, and enjoyed it very much. Even got a few autographs (Randy and Tim) and saw Chuck. Good times!

As for the watering down....I'll use TKD as an example. People bash it left and right, saying its nothing but a sport, yet they talk about the combat side of it. While I dont do TKD, I can't help but agree with those that say its nothing but a sport. If there is in fact a 'combat' side to it, its rare that you see it. So, if the art of TKD was 'watered down' for the sake of sport, the Olympics, etc., it seems to me that if MMA was to enter the Olympics, it would probably be as you described.

I think that the ranges at work in MMA would save it from that fate, and it would change as I described above. Olympic boxers are still used to punching with full contact.

Finally, Tez, if you're stating a position (You believe that MMA would be a bad choice for the Olympics) and backing it up with rationale (all of the reasons you stated), you're arguing. An argument doesn't have to be contentious. Just throwing that out because I can't take the back and forth anymore arguing about what an argument is.

 

[Tez3]

Nah I'm having a conversation just the same as I do face to face, people say something, someone else says something etc etc. It doesn't have to be backed up, proved or even be logical. It's a conversation such as you have at a dinner party or at work, nothing more. Arguments between men and women should always end with the man having the last word....ie 'yes dear'
sorry Chris, had to do it lol!

I'm serious about having sports that can be trained simply and cheaply to allow as many people as possible participate in it. MMA does meet that criteria in many places. I'm not serious about shin kicking though it is a competitive sport here, very competitive actually! Cheese rolling is a dangerous sport, more people get hurt doing that that at MMA. The suggestions weren't serious but weren't silly either as they are sports enjoyed by real people. Absolutely serious about the NZ rugby team with shirts off though!

Kabbadi if you've never seen it is a very good sport I think many martial artists would enjoy and yes we have Service teams here. The US has a team which competes in the Kabbadi World Cup, Canada has a team too. It would be a good sport to put into the Olympics, much better than MMA.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7110012.stm

 

[Steve]

Nah I'm having a conversation just the same as I do face to face, people say something, someone else says something etc etc.

If that's the case, you argue a lot in real life. Better, I think, to know it.

It doesn't have to be backed up, proved or even be logical. It's a conversation such as you have at a dinner party or at work, nothing more.

Arguments don't have to be logical, backed up or proven. Effective ones do, perhaps, but anytime you're stating a position on anything, and backing up the assertion with support, you're framing an argument.

For example: "Gee, the weather around here sucks. It's always so cold and dreary. I'd much rather live in Australia, because the weather there is always sunny, the women glow, the men plunder and they have vegemite, which I love."

Here's another example: "I think we should redefine the terms 'conversation' and 'argument' because when I'm arguing, I don't like to call it that. It's unbecoming and makes me feel too... argumentative."

Arguments between men and women should always end with the man having the last word....ie 'yes dear'
sorry Chris, had to do it lol!

I don't necessarily disagree with this.

I'm serious about having sports that can be trained simply and cheaply to allow as many people as possible participate in it. MMA does meet that criteria in many places. I'm not serious about shin kicking though it is a competitive sport here, very competitive actually! Cheese rolling is a dangerous sport, more people get hurt doing that that at MMA. The suggestions weren't serious but weren't silly either as they are sports enjoyed by real people. Absolutely serious about the NZ rugby team with shirts off though!

Kabbadi if you've never seen it is a very good sport I think many martial artists would enjoy and yes we have Service teams here. The US has a team which competes in the Kabbadi World Cup, Canada has a team too. It would be a good sport to put into the Olympics, much better than MMA.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7110012.stm

MMA meets the definition of cheaply trained as much as soccer or boxing do. I don't think that cheaply trained and allowing for as many competitors as possible disqualifies MMA. On that criterion alone, almost every country could field a competitive MMA team.

Once again, I don't think that MMA is well suited for the Olympics. BJJ would be much better, and better received overall, I think.

 

[Tez3]

Sigh, okay, here, where I am 'arguing' and 'having an argument' are things one does in a temper, or when a disagreement goes too far. It's fighting with words. It isn't a pleasant pastime, it causes divorces when spouses argue, children get told off for arguing and I arrest people when arguments go too far which they often do. It's not something one should encourage. Now 'debating' is something different, that's fairly structured and has give and take. I dislike arguing with people either in person on in post therefore I try not to argue. If someone wants to debate something with me, I'd prefer they don't start off with an antagonistic attitude ( not not you Steve!) throwing words down as if in a challenge match.

We are coming from different view points on the meaning of words, it's a shame that there seems no middle ground for some.

I'm not arguing about MMA I'm saying it's my opinion that it shouldn't be in the Olympics and tbh I don't have to justify my opinion to anyone. The OP asked for opinions he got them. He didn't ask for a full blown debate on it, if he had I would have given the pros and cons and bored you all silly with a very long list of reasons why I think the way I do.

 

[ATC]

A lawyers opening statement is known as an opening argument in just about every country. To argue is to debate, that is the simple term. One does not have to be in anger to argue a point, although many people because of disagreeing points, tend to be agitated or angry due to the disagreement, but that has no bearing on the definition of the term argument. The simple fact that two or more people hold different points of view and choose to debate those points of view defines the term argument.

Argument and Debate are synonymous.

Just thought I’d mediate.:asian:

 

[Tez3]

A lawyers opening statement is known as an opening argument in just about every country. To argue is to debate, that is the simple term. One does not have to be in anger to argue a point, although many people because of disagreeing points, tend to be agitated or angry due to the disagreement, but that has no bearing on the definition of the term argument. The simple fact that two or more people hold different points of view and choose to debate those points of view defines the term argument.

Argument and Debate are synonymous.

Just thought I’d mediate.:asian:

Ta, ducks.

However the way it is employed on here often when someone says you are arguing it's meant as an accusation. I was neither arguing nor debating on this thread. It was just an opinion, nought else, then it seemed to me that I was being accused of arguing and being told I was arguing my point and my argument didn't hold up. why would it, it was an opinion given lightly.

Opening arguments in courts are done if not in anger certainly with the view to being combatative. It's not the pleasant exchange of views a conversation is. Each side is literally trying to best the other, it isn't a place for the coming together of agreement. It's an argument as I described it. Arguments end in discord, debates don't.

The thing is too, if that's how I've been educated and brought up, that arguing is not the done thing, even if I'm wrong, I don't see why I should be harrassed for not arguing! It's how I see things rightly or wrongly, there's little need for people to get agitated about it and assume things about me that aren't true.

 

[ATC]

Ta, ducks.

However the way it is employed on here often when someone says you are arguing it's meant as an accusation. I was neither arguing nor debating on this thread. It was just an opinion, nought else, then it seemed to me that I was being accused of arguing and being told I was arguing my point and my argument didn't hold up. why would it, it was an opinion given lightly.

Opening arguments in courts are done if not in anger certainly with the view to being combatative. It's not the pleasant exchange of views a conversation is. Each side is literally trying to best the other, it isn't a place for the coming together of agreement. It's an argument as I described it. Arguments end in discord, debates don't.

The thing is too, if that's how I've been educated and brought up, that arguing is not the done thing, even if I'm wrong, I don't see why I should be harrassed for not arguing! It's how I see things rightly or wrongly, there's little need for people to get agitated about it and assume things about me that aren't true.

Your points and opinions are noted.

OK everyone back to a pretty good thread please. See my next post.

 

[ATC]

...As for the watering down....I'll use TKD as an example. People bash it left and right, saying its nothing but a sport, yet they talk about the combat side of it. While I dont do TKD, I can't help but agree with those that say its nothing but a sport. If there is in fact a 'combat' side to it, its rare that you see it. So, if the art of TKD was 'watered down' for the sake of sport, the Olympics, etc., it seems to me that if MMA was to enter the Olympics, it would probably be as you described.

If you don't do TKD, then why use this as an example? How can you example something that you have no knowledge in? Any MA that is converted into a sport will be modified or altered for the sake of safety. There is no way any TKDist can use a great many techniques and concepts in the ring. You would have a lot of crippled or people. That can be said for any Martial Art.

 

[MJS]

If you don't do TKD, then why use this as an example? How can you example something that you have no knowledge in? Any MA that is converted into a sport will be modified or altered for the sake of safety. There is no way any TKDist can use a great many techniques and concepts in the ring. You would have a lot of crippled or people. That can be said for any Martial Art.

Why use it as an example? LOL, because its all over the internet, on here, on youtube...all billed as sport. People say the combat side is there, I dont see it. I made a simple statement, nothing more. No need to get huffy because I said something about your art. So, that being said, if all people see is the sport side, of course they're going to think that its all watered down, even if its supposedly not.

Judo is in the Olypics correct? Is it watered down? I was simply asking if MMA, which, as I said earlier, has already been watered down from its early days. I'm asking how much more it'd be watered down.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Just re add gladiatorial combat to the mix. It'll serve the same purpose, and bump the ratings up a bit. There'd also be no question on effectiveness or 'sport' or watered down.

 

[Carol]

I'm actually with BloodMoney, I would LOVE to see Pankration in the Olympics, especially with the history it has.

Now if the "Co-Ed Naked..." franchise from the 80s is still around, I want to license "Co-Ed Naked Pankration". Because, of course, its all about the history. :lol:

 

[Steve]

If you don't do TKD, then why use this as an example? How can you example something that you have no knowledge in? Any MA that is converted into a sport will be modified or altered for the sake of safety. There is no way any TKDist can use a great many techniques and concepts in the ring. You would have a lot of crippled or people. That can be said for any Martial Art.

Warning: The following post contains an argument.
Disclaimer: I am not mad, nor am I trying to make anyone else so.

TKD is a good example because, based on the opinions stated by credible TKD stylists, there is a growing divide between TKD self-defense instruction and TKD competitive instruction. I can't speak for MJS, but for me, I take the word of people who are credible. Even you have agreed in the past on this forum that there is a world of difference between 'Olympic' TKD and traditional TKD.

I understand that you are a fan of Olympic TKD and that you're heavily involved in the sport. I get that. However, even to a lay person watching the TKD competition in the Olympics, you can see that it bears little resemblance to any kind of self defense.

The point isn't whether Olympic TKD is a good sport. It's fine, if you're into it. The point is whether the changes in TKD as a whole largely due to its involvement in the Olympics has been a good thing or a bad thing. And continuing on, whether good or bad, would it have a similar affect on MMA?

Personally, I think it's been bad only because ultimately the reputation of TKD on the whole has suffered outside the sport. Right or wrong, TKD has cultivated a reputation as the quintessential "kiddie", afterschool daycare MA.

I'd hate to see that happen to MMA.

 

[Steve]

I'm actually with BloodMoney, I would LOVE to see Pankration in the Olympics, especially with the history it has.

Now if the "Co-Ed Naked..." franchise from the 80s is still around, I want to license "Co-Ed Naked Pankration". Because, of course, its all about the history. :lol:

Hehe, but then it couldn't be coed. It would have to be men only, and women who sneak in to watch would be killed.

But I'm all for naked beach volleyball. On second thought... that's not necessary. I wouldn't change a thing.

 

[ATC]

Why use it as an example? LOL, because its all over the internet, on here, on youtube...all billed as sport. People say the combat side is there, I dont see it. I made a simple statement, nothing more. No need to get huffy because I said something about your art. So, that being said, if all people see is the sport side, of course they're going to think that its all watered down, even if its supposedly not.

Judo is in the Olypics correct? Is it watered down? I was simply asking if MMA, which, as I said earlier, has already been watered down from its early days. I'm asking how much more it'd be watered down.

Yes Judo has been altered from it original form. What you see in the Olympic is not the original Kano Jiu-Jitsu or Kano Jiu-Do.

And not huffy at all. Based on your statement "I don't do TKD" I just found it quite profound that you would example something that you don't do. I would have stated the same thing if you had instered any art in place of TKD.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

As for the watering down....I'll use TKD as an example. People bash it left and right, saying its nothing but a sport, yet they talk about the combat side of it. While I dont do TKD, I can't help but agree with those that say its nothing but a sport.

Sport taekwondo is what is seen in the olympics, and yes, that is a sport. Also the national sport of Korea. The style of sparring was developed, if memory serves, by the Jidokwan in the late sixties/early seventies as a means of differentiating taekwondo tournaments from karate tournaments.

The "watering down" of taekwondo is really not due to the olympics and began prior to the olympics. It has everything to do with commercialism and liability control.

Also, you need to specify which taekwondo you are talking about, as there are two major groups. ITF taekwondo sparring looks nothing like the WTF sparring and a lot more like sport karate.

Though I have shifted away from taekwondo to hapkido, I practiced for a very long time and I can assure you that there is plenty of combat worthiness to both the ITF and Kukkiwon systems.

Just another point of clarification: the WTF regulates the sport of taekwondo. It establishes the rule set, the standards for competitive poomsae, and is the IOC recognized governing body for the sport.

The Kukkiwon regulates all the rest, from establishment of curriculum to ranking of taekwondoists.

If there is in fact a 'combat' side to it, its rare that you see it. So, if the art of TKD was 'watered down' for the sake of sport, the Olympics, etc., it seems to me that if MMA was to enter the Olympics, it would probably be as you described.

Really, the art has not been watered down for the sake of sport; the two are separate entities with some overlap. Nothing more.

Kukki taekwondo (the style associated with the WTF and from which the competitive poomsae in the WTF come) contains a great deal that is not part of sport taekwondo. Finding a school that teaches it that way can be hard, however, depending upon where you are, and WTF sport taekwondo garners the lions share of attention, as the WTF is the largest governing body.

The ITF teaches Chang Hon taekwondo, and there is a substantial practical element to it. But the ITF is fractured (I believe that there are three of them) and ITF schools are outnumbered substantially by those that teach Kukki/WTF taekwondo. Hard to compete with a nationally backed federation that is also the recognized olympic NGB.

There is also the ATA, which teaches Songahm taekwondo and is world wide is called the Songahm Taekwondo Federation. ATA/STF is its own unique animal and is probably hammered on the most for lack of practicality on the web, but from what I have seen, the system contains all of the necesary tools for a solid and practical system; the ATA simply markets to the suburban family/afterschool program customer, and does so very well.

There is nothing inherently bad or inherently superior about any of the three groups; they simply offer very different products. The WTF pours the most energy and money into marketing, so needless to say, it is the one that everyone is familiar with.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

Warning: The following post contains an argument.
Disclaimer: I am not mad, nor am I trying to make anyone else so.

TKD is a good example because, based on the opinions stated by credible TKD stylists, there is a growing divide between TKD self-defense instruction and TKD competitive instruction. I can't speak for MJS, but for me, I take the word of people who are credible. Even you have agreed in the past on this forum that there is a world of difference between 'Olympic' TKD and traditional TKD.

I understand that you are a fan of Olympic TKD and that you're heavily involved in the sport. I get that. However, even to a lay person watching the TKD competition in the Olympics, you can see that it bears little resemblance to any kind of self defense.

The point isn't whether Olympic TKD is a good sport. It's fine, if you're into it. The point is whether the changes in TKD as a whole largely due to its involvement in the Olympics has been a good thing or a bad thing. And continuing on, whether good or bad, would it have a similar affect on MMA?

Personally, I think it's been bad only because ultimately the reputation of TKD on the whole has suffered outside the sport. Right or wrong, TKD has cultivated a reputation as the quintessential "kiddie", afterschool daycare MA.

I'd hate to see that happen to MMA.

Your warning has been recognized.

TKD as an after school day care or kiddy art has nothing to do with the Olympics. That has been a strong marketing choice by many Dojang owners to create or increase profit to sustain a living.

Olympic TKD, is only a byproduct of TKD and not TKD. Kiddy TKD is very different than adult TKD. Many techniques that adults use aren't even taught to children or even teen for that matter.

I have to stand by my argument that to example something that you don't do or know about is bad. If he would have just stopped at his example then fine. But to state they you don't do something, so you don't know, how can you in the next sentence state that you agree with anything one way or another.

So you don't do, so you don't know, but you agree with someone. Not very smart to me. If I don't know or don't do then it is just that, I don't know. I have to obtain some knowledge to make even an opinion. Any opinion based on no knowledge is just mind boggling to say the least.

 

[Steve]

Your warning has been recognized.

TKD as an after school day care or kiddy art has nothing to do with the Olympics. That has been a strong marketing choice by many Dojang owners to create or increase profit to sustain a living.

Olympic TKD, is only a byproduct of TKD and not TKD. Kiddy TKD is very different than adult TKD. Many techniques that adults use aren't even taught to children or even teen for that matter.

Do you think that TKD as a whole has a good reputation, either within or without the MA community? I can think of some TKD people here and in real life whom I am guessing run top notch programs. But they are among the people who lament the most about how commercialism, selling out for profit and inclusion in the Olympics have led to the current state of TKD in the world.

Edit to add: At some point, how you measure success or failure needs to be stated, as well. I mean, it's clear that there are many people who are perfectly happy with how TKD is going and don't see any reason to change a thing.

So you don't do, so you don't know, but you agree with someone. Not very smart to me. If I don't know or don't do then it is just that, I don't know. I have to obtain some knowledge to make even an opinion. Any opinion based on no knowledge is just mind boggling to say the least.

At some point, we have to make decisions about credibility. No one can know everything about anything. It's all different degrees of ignorance. I'm more ignorant of TKD politics and history than other people.

But in a situation like this, lay opinions are relevant. What people who aren't fans of MMA think of MMA is relevant because that speaks directly to its marketability in a venue like the Olympics. In the same way, lay opinions of TKD are relevant, ie, what effect the Olympics have had on public perception of the art of TKD.