MMA is the most traditional martial art

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

My personal definition is that it is about priorities. If it’s more important to do it the same way your instructor did it, it’s traditional. If it’s more important that it works for you, it’s not traditional. Not that it can’t be both. Just a matter of priorities. Push comes to shove, which one is more important?

See, that makes sense but its a school by school thing. I could care a lot about what my teacher did, but my training brother could not. If we teach the same curriculum, does that mean one of us is a tma and the other isnt?

 

[Steve]

See, that makes sense but its a school by school thing. I could care a lot about what my teacher did, but my training brother could not. If we teach the same curriculum, does that mean one of us is a tma and the other isnt?

Yeah. I get it. I’m talking about culture of style. Individuals will always have their own preferences. So as an instructor in TMA, if you get too individualistic, you risk being ostracized. We see it all the time.

 

[drop bear]

I really don't understand what makes an art traditional. I know that topics been done to death, but i still don't see what the difference is. Is it kata? It feels like kata.

Ritual.

 

[gerardfoy50]

Traditional Martial arts don't work yet MMA constantly uses techniques from traditional martial arts.

The one thing that I notice about traditional martial arts is that those who think it's useless are often those who don't MMA nor traditional martial arts. I also find it entertaining that Mma fighters are the same guys that are showing the world that traditional martial arts techniques work.

For the traditional martial artist.. I can only recommend to stop riding on the fighting skills of the founders. My of the founders trained through fighting. History is good to remember but it's up to the next generation build their own fighting legends no matter how big or small

Yes they use these techniques because they are open minded, confident in their skill set and always looking to improve. Many tkd are the opposite however the main technicques are probably the same as the pankration used

 

[Argus]

But does it work... on the streets?

Only when you and your opponent are wearing a toga.
Erm, I mean, butt naked.

 

[_Simon_]

Give your 20 guys longbows. Give 10 of your guys longbows, even. Unless those 20 shortsword guys can teleport...

I like this thread trajectory. Threadjectory!

 

[Holmejr]

Traditional this and traditional that. Everything comes from something. Is there really anything new? Everything adapted from something else. Well before any written history people fought. There was a teacher (parent, chief or resident bad ars) that taught and students that learned.
With that said, i do believe in traditional styles as lay a foundation for exploration and adaptation. But typically (not always) people need structure and discipline to lay that foundation. Usually that is only found the tradition of an established art.

 

[Dirty Dog]

They made blades to chop the legs of horses.

And polearms for the horses to run into.

 

[skribs]

I really don't understand what makes an art traditional. I know that topics been done to death, but i still don't see what the difference is. Is it kata? It feels like kata.

There are some things for which there is a very clear definition that everyone in the industry goes by, and some things which are subjective to the speaker or the audience. For example, "short" and "tall" aren't strictly defined, but "5-foot, 8-inches" is. On the other hand, if someone is 6-foot 8-inches tall, most folks would categorize that person as "tall". I've known a few guys that could unironically call that person "short", but they are an extreme outlier.

I think "traditional" is one of those things that is very subjective. I think kata is a big part of it, but I think the biggest piece is a curriculum built more on technical proficiency than technical superiority.

One example would be my Hapkido training. There were no katas (at least, as most people think of katas), but there was an overwhelming amount of hand grab defenses that you had to memorize for testing. For example:

1. Cross grab defense: wrap their arm by their ear and use leverage to tip them over
2. Straight grab defense: same as #1 with a different entry
3. Cross grab defense: twist their arm and push down on their elbow to hyper-extend
4. Straight grab defense: same as #3 with a different entry
5. 2-on-1 grab defense: same as #3-4 with a different entry
6. Cross grab defense: twist your arm and set up a V-lock
7. 2-on-1 grab defense: same as #6 with a different entry
8. Straight grab defense: twist their arm and set up a V-lock with a different hand position than #6-7
9. Cross grab defense: trap their hand and set up a Z-lock
10. Straight grab defense: another entry for the Z-lock
11. Double cross grab: basically #9 again
12. Double straight grab: basically #10 again

For white belt, there were 27 of these. On your testing day, the Master would say "Do #7" and you would have to tell the other person which type of grab to use, and then you would apply the technique. He would do them out of order. You couldn't just memorize the order, you had to be able to respond immediately with the technique he wanted.

The goal was not necessarily to be better than the person you're partnered with, but rather to be able to execute the technique on command.

Compare that with wrestling or BJJ, where the curriculum is much looser. My most recent experience is with BJJ. There is no rote curriculum. There is only "here's what we're working on this week." One day when we work on De La Riva guard, we'll do different techniques from that position than we will on a different day. And when we roll, the vast majority of what we do is NOT what we learned in drills, but responding to what our opponent is doing.

Not only is it more realistic, but it's also easier to update. If you see a new technique in De La Riva, you can immediately turn around and teach it in class. It's a lot harder to do things like that in a situation where the curriculum is already laid out. If you learn a new technique in Hapkido, where do you put it into that curriculum? Is it a new technique (meaning more to memorize)? Is it something you do once and then forget about? Does it replace older techniques?

However, the traditional method does have some advantages. Typically they will be safer to train (particularly with striking arts like Taekwondo and Karate typically allowing less head contact than something like Muay Thai or Boxing). It's also nice to know what you are supposed to work on. I've already had folks at my BJJ gym venting to me that they're not sure what the professor wants to see before giving them a stripe, and they're a little bit frustrated. In Hapkido, it was very simple. Do you know your #1-27? No? You only know #1-12? Well, that's why you're not testing yet.

 

[gerardfoy50]

You think it was continuing nonstop from the ancient greeks until the 90s? Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back up that claim?

That it didn’t die out

 

[gerardfoy50]

Ritual.

Difference between MMA and tam, everything in MMA is practical and efficien,

 

[frank raud]

That it didn’t die out

If it didn't die out, can you point to Pankration being practiced in the 19th century? The 18th? In 1969, Jim Arvantis revived the idea and called it Modern Pankration. So where was it continuously practiced? Or are you suggesting that because there was punches, kicks and chokes in pankration, and people have always punched, kicked and choked that is how pankration didn't die out?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That it didn’t die out

And your evidence of this?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Many tkd are the opposite

I think this is due to personal goals. If they are training to use the techniques to fight with them things begin to take similar shape. If their goals are to look good doing tkd forms then the focus and purpose of training have changed. Same system but two different focuses. I could create a MMA fitness class and tech the same techniques that are use in MMA but without the focus of learning how fight.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think this is due to personal goals. If they are training to use the techniques to fight with them things begin to take similar shape. If their goals are to look good doing tkd forms then the focus and purpose of training have changed. Same system but two different focuses. I could create a MMA fitness class and tech the same techniques that are use in MMA but without the focus of learning how fight.

Same techniques but not trained with the same focus

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[gerardfoy50]

If it didn't die out, can you point to Pankration being practiced in the 19th century? The 18th? In 1969, Jim Arvantis revived the idea and called it Modern Pankration. So where was it continuously practiced? Or are you suggesting that because there was punches, kicks and chokes in pankration, and people have always punched, kicked and choked that is how pankration didn't die out?

Pankration is mma

 

[frank raud]

Pankration is mma

So, no actual historical connections or proof, just constant parroting Pankration is MMA? Odd that no one else is seeing things your way, perhaps you should say Pankration is MMA a few more times.

 

[Alan0354]

Yes they use these techniques because they are open minded, confident in their skill set and always looking to improve. Many tkd are the opposite however the main technicques are probably the same as the pankration used

That's the key, no PRIDE and TRADITION involve, just the best way to win. It is so common even people open to MMA, still they STUCK in finding what's in their style to counter an attack INSTEAD of learning from MMA the most effective way to counter.

We have long discussion about how to counter a simple SHOOT. Instead of using the MOST EFFECTIVE "SPRAW" in the MMA, People rack their head looking into their own style how to move the stance, how to do this and that to counter a SHOOT. TMA get too used to thinking INSIDE the BOX, instead of having an open mind and learn outside the box.

That's why there are so many videos trashing CMA and TMA and SO MANY examples of MMA really kicked the butt of them. SADLY, they can't hear it, it's beyond their comprehension. BECAUSE THEY SUPPOSED TO BE THE BEST. It become a running JOKE of TMA and CMA. Just go on youtube.

MMA improves everyday while the rest stuck in few centuries ago.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Pankration is mma

OKay fine. So prove that pankration never stopped and continued from 2000 bc to modern day.

 

[Hyoho]

Just wonder what's the MMA solution on this?

I don't think it needs a solution. It's "mixed", even called mixed. Why even discuss it. As it is I practice four faceted traditions to learn the sword. Kendo, kenjutsu, iaido, batto jutsu.

God forbid if I had to learn all the traditions mixed in with MMA to be good. But it doesn't work like that. They tend to specialize with what they do best. That's why I like it so much.