mma is a made up martial art.

[K-man]

As we are off topic anyway......this technique is used sometimes to counter the argument that there is ' no first strike in karate' in Wado circles lol. It starts with a short left stance, left foot slightly in front of right and hands down though not like those in video, more naturally. The argument goes that because the hands are down it means it's an aggressive move more than the usual defensive ones. It may be worthy of a thread on it's own, I'm not sure but it's a little titbit of karate

A similar strike is Gammon Ura Uchi where the first hand pulls the defences out of the way allowing the back fist open access. This jumping strike does the same thing with the front arm combined with the dropping body weight clearing the way for the reverse strike.

I can remember seeing my former instructor, quite a small guy, using it in the world karate championships in Sydney in the mid 80s.

 

[drop bear]

Anyway back to mma. If not made up where did it originate from?

 

[K-man]

Anyway back to mma. If not made up where did it originate from?

You really need to ask?

How about BJJ and Muay Thai for starters. Then you can add in most of the various karate styles, TKD etc.

MMA, mixed martial arts!

 

[Steve]

The ingredients are known, but the recipe is made up by someone. Bjj is a derivative of judo, but it's become something else. Very few great ideas are invented from nothing. But they remain new, nonetheless.

Judi was made up from jujutsu. Bjj and sambo were made up from a mixture of judo and other stuff. Mma is made up, too. It didn't exist, and now it does.


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[Steve]

I have a question. who cares what a technique is called outside of your school. It really seems like some people are getting hung up on semantics.


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[drop bear]

I have a question. who cares what a technique is called outside of your school. It really seems like some people are getting hung up on semantics.


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i am the only person who does that apparently Me an jon jones.

honestly mma is terrible for it as we are constantly pulling things from other styles.

or using nicknames.

i don't think the t bag submission is a correct term either.

 

[Buka]

All Martial Arts were made up by somebody. All fighting contests were made up by somebody.

Fighting - gee, ya think the human race has any experience in that? A lot of people are horrified at the very idea. People like us reach for popcorn.

Ain't it grand?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I have a question. who cares what a technique is called outside of your school. It really seems like some people are getting hung up on semantics.


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I don't think anybody is all that hung up on semantics. The simple reality is that if there is a commonly used name for a technique, then it is only sensible to use that term. If you say a roundhouse, pretty much everybody will know what you're talking about, even if you qualify it by saying "low" or "to the ribs" or whatever.
However, when you start calling a front kick a "verticle roundhouse" then you're doing nothing other than making communication more difficult. People response will not be "I know what you mean" it will be "WTF are you babbling about?".
If your interest is in communication, then it is in your best interest to use accepted terminology, not redefine terms as you go along. Otherwise it's all gobbldy blobbity cryptologins wattle.

 

[Reeksta]

At the risk of being pedantic, a superman punch isn't just a leaping punch. It's specifically when you fake throwing a kick first and that's it's main purpose: to deceive. The karate techniques mentioned don't appear to be trying to feign a kick beforehand, which would make them a different thing to a superman punch. I could be wrong as I'm not a big expert on karate but as this hasn't been mentioned by anyone I thought it was worth clarifying

 

[Tez3]

At the risk of being pedantic, a superman punch isn't just a leaping punch. It's specifically when you fake throwing a kick first and that's it's main purpose: to deceive. The karate techniques mentioned don't appear to be trying to feign a kick beforehand, which would make them a different thing to a superman punch. I could be wrong as I'm not a big expert on karate but as this hasn't been mentioned by anyone I thought it was worth clarifying

Well, the point is the punch is still the same, you can do any feint you want before any technique but it doesn't change that technique. I quite often feint a roundhouse kick but then do a hook kick, however it is still a hook kick whether or not it has a feint before it.
Doing a feint or a strike before a technique doesn't change the technique it just makes it a combination of techniques. In karate we train combinations a lot but it doesn't change the nature of each component. If you do a snap punch, reverse punch, roundhouse kick and then a reverse punch you don't call that combination by a different name, you call it snap punch, reverse punch, roundhouse kick then reverse punch.

 

[Reeksta]

Well, the point is the punch is still the same, you can do any feint you want before any technique but it doesn't change that technique. I quite often feint a roundhouse kick but then do a hook kick, however it is still a hook kick whether or not it has a feint before it.
Doing a feint or a strike before a technique doesn't change the technique it just makes it a combination of techniques. In karate we train combinations a lot but it doesn't change the nature of each component. If you do a snap punch, reverse punch, roundhouse kick and then a reverse punch you don't call that combination by a different name, you call it snap punch, reverse punch, roundhouse kick then reverse punch.

But in this instance the feint is integral to the technique. You HAVE to bring the rear leg up so you can snap it back to create the distinctive 'superman' movement. If you're not doing that then you're not doing a superman punch, you're doing something else.
Here's a vid I found which probably explains things better than I'm managing to do

 

[Tez3]

The 'naming' of techniques and the use of specific strikes in MMA has nothing to do with martial arts and all to do with marketing a fighter. It's not enough these days to be a good fighter and win fighters, you have to have something to catch the promoters and the public's eye. You have to stand out, one way to do this is to be known for doing a flash move. So that when people talk about MMA they say 'wow Joe Bloggs and his wizard kick'. They will buy 'wizard kick' t-shirts, videos showing them how to do it etc. It's commercial and it works, the video you posted proves that lol.

 

[Reeksta]

The 'naming' of techniques and the use of specific strikes in MMA has nothing to do with martial arts and all to do with marketing a fighter. It's not enough these days to be a good fighter and win fighters, you have to have something to catch the promoters and the public's eye. You have to stand out, one way to do this is to be known for doing a flash move. So that when people talk about MMA they say 'wow Joe Blogs and his wizard kick'. They will buy 'wizard kick' t-shirts, videos showing them how to do it etc. It's commercial and it works, the video you posted proves that lol.

Fair enough, I don't disagree with a lot of that. However the only point I was making is that the raising of the leg is integral to performing what is universally known in kickboxing, muay thai and MMA as a superman punch and that this makes the technique different to the karate techniques that had been mentioned

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So you are now saying it is not a made up technique? what's with this 'on the fly' bit mean. To do things on the fly means to be on the wrong side of the law, where does that fit in?

Huh, maybe the expression mean something different in the UK. I've never heard it used in relation to legality in any way.

Over here it refers to doing something quickly without preparation. In this case it would refer to improvising the technique in the middle of sparring.

 

[Tez3]

Fair enough, I don't disagree with a lot of that. However the only point I was making is that the raising of the leg is integral to performing what is universally known in kickboxing, muay thai and MMA as a superman punch and that this makes the technique different to the karate techniques that had been mentioned

However, you have made my point because what drop bear was saying was that it was unknown until MMA and it was made up by a fighter whereas the truth is in whatever form we know it , it is as you say universally known and has been used for a very long time. We can discuss how it's done and whether it's one technique or not simply because we do know it and it's not a new invented kicks in MMA.


Fly...it's know here for being shady or illegal as in 'fly tipping' the illegal dumping of waste or for someone who is fly ie sly or underhand, or to fly, to scarper.

We would say he 'winged it'

 

[tshadowchaser]

the statement was mad a few or more posts ago asking when MMA was created if it was not a made up art. Hell that's an easy one to answer. The first time two people fought and ended up on the ground or even kicking each other. Most likely soon after man became man and had a conflict between two people. Any time there was a conflict and someone did something different from what the other guy was doing it became a MMA without a ring and ref.

 

[Transk53]

But in this instance the feint is integral to the technique. You HAVE to bring the rear leg up so you can snap it back to create the distinctive 'superman' movement. If you're not doing that then you're not doing a superman punch, you're doing something else.
Here's a vid I found which probably explains things better than I'm managing to do

Sure I have seen Cung Le do that in the movie "Dragon Eyes". Nice clip

 

[drop bear]

the statement was mad a few or more posts ago asking when MMA was created if it was not a made up art. Hell that's an easy one to answer. The first time two people fought and ended up on the ground or even kicking each other. Most likely soon after man became man and had a conflict between two people. Any time there was a conflict and someone did something different from what the other guy was doing it became a MMA without a ring and ref.

not really the accepted term of mma though.

ironically that is a made up definition.

by the way. I found that Dan Higgins. A trainer in Queensland has a higgimora submission.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Seems like we have a few different concepts floating around at cross-purposes here. Let's see if we can untangle them a bit ...

1) MMA is made up by people. So is every other martial art on the face of the planet. If you are allergic to the term "made up" for some reason, you can say "invented" or "developed" or even "discovered." One way or the other, they are all the result of human creativity.

2) "Made up" doesn't mean "something pulled out of the inventors brain with no connection to anything that came before." The people who invent/make up/develop/discover a new style or a new technique are doing it based on and in the context of whatever training and other experiences they may have had previously. This is no different from any other creative endeavor. Someone who writes an original song or novel is rearranging elements and themes that have existed in other works for ages.

3) "Made up" doesn't mean "something that is 100% original and has never existed before." A BJJ practitioner might invent a new finish for an omoplata entirely on his own, only to later discover a picture of some forgotten judoka or catch wrestler doing the same move 50 years earlier. Likewise, a mystery novelist might invent a plot twist for her latest book, only to later find out the same idea had been used in some obscure book a century prior.

4) Terminology is made up all the time. Sometimes it is made up for a technique that is new (or new to the namer). Sometimes it is made up by someone developing a new art who wants to distinguish his art from its predecessors or to be more descriptive. Sometimes it is made up as an art moves into a culture with a different language. Sometimes it is made up because a practitioner wants more fine-grained description of the different elements in his/her art.

5) In order to be useful, terminology has to be understood. Techniques get named and renamed all the time, but if I were to just make up my own words for all the moves I practice and start using those terms in discussions on this board, then no one would know what I was talking about. In order for communication to occur, people have to know what the terms mean, no matter who invented them.

6) There are a number of factors which can determine how understanding of new terminology will spread.
If you are an instructor and use certain terminology, then at least students at your school will understand the terms.
If you are the founder of a new style, then students of your style will understand your terms. If your style becomes popular and widespread, then even practitioners of other styles may become familiar with them.
If your terminology is useful, because it describes something which is commonly used but which didn't have a widely known name before, then it may spread.
If your terminology is particularly evocative or easily understood, then it may become popular.
If you have some popular communication channel or spokesperson to spread your terminology to the masses, then it may become widely understood.

With that in mind, let's look at some of the MMA based terminology that has been mentioned.

Superman punch: used to describe a specific maneuver where you fake a kick and then use the momentum from the leg motion to power a leaping punch. (It's not just an arbitrary feint, the leg action is an intrinsic part of the motion.) Doubtless the move had been used before the advent of MMA, but it wasn't widely known and didn't have a specific name that was widely known. When it became popular in MMA and someone coined the term "superman punch" it stuck for a variety of reasons.
It was useful, describing a technique that was now being practiced and didn't have a pre-existing name (that anybody knew about)
It was evocative: how can anyone not want to learn the "Superman punch"?
It could spread widely, via the commenters for a televised popular sport.

Abracadabra kick: used by Jon Jones to describe a certain type of faked roundhouse transitioning into a front kick. I learned a variation of the same move in Muay Thai, although it wasn't given a specific name. Jon Jones is a well known fighter, so if the maneuver becomes popular, then his term might stick. Right now, probably no one would understand the term unless they had watched that specific video.

The Showtime kick: used by the MMA press to describe a specific event in which Anthony Pettis managed to pull off what looked like a movie stunt in actual competition. As far as I know, no one is using it to describe a regularly practiced technique. If we get a new generation of Parkour-based fighters who regularly throw kicks while running up the walls of the cage, then maybe that will change.

Vertical roundhouse: used by drop bear to describe a low inside roundhouse that creeps up into the opponent's groin. I'm not aware of anyone else using the term, unless the other guys at drop bear's gym call it that. I think the term is unlikely to spread for a number of reasons - it describes a common technique that already has a common name (low inside roundhouse), it's confusing rather than evocative, and there's no one I know of advocating for its use except drop bear (who is not a well known instructor, fighter, or tv personality).

 

[K-man]

But in this instance the feint is integral to the technique. You HAVE to bring the rear leg up so you can snap it back to create the distinctive 'superman' movement. If you're not doing that then you're not doing a superman punch, you're doing something else.
Here's a vid I found which probably explains things better than I'm managing to do

Is it that the feint is integral, in which case it is still a feint followed by reverse punch, or is it a hop to make distance followed by a reverse strike. The action shown is exactly how you cover distance hopping.

Here is a young Superman in training for MMA.

Or if you want an exaggerated version.

In either case the knee lifts first and the leg is forced back to give the forward momentum.