Stop Saying “Traditional” Martial Arts

[Haruhiko]

That’s why I said it wasn’t logical.

I don’t think many of us practise a true martial art (and fight system used in actual warfare or lethal combat) let alone an ancient one, but we have an irrational ‘feeling’ that we do and I think that’s absolutely fine and acceptable.

I study and practise two koryū, would those count?

 

[Haruhiko]

This came to be known as karate-do (as opposed to karate-jutsu). Rather than combat application oriented, karate-do concentrated on the general benefits the practice provided: Exercise, self-discipline and eventually sport (and even entertainment). This is largely the state of current karate, but schools that still emphasize the combat application jutsu still exist to a greater or lesser degree.

Are there any extant Okinawan systems that consider themselves "jutsu" oriented?

Do vs Jutsu. Again.

Blog about Japanese martial arts, gendai and koryu budo, koryu bugei

budobum.blogspot.com

Always a good read when jutsu/do discussion comes up.

 

[Haruhiko]

This is a good starting point for Greco-Roman Wrestling and why it has become what it has become today.

Fascinating video. Interesting that the French formalised it during the Napoleonic years.

I'm referring then to ancient Greek wrestling (pālé). Evenso, do many Franco-greco-roman wrestling traditions survive today?

 

[Gyakuto]

I study and practise two koryū, would those count?

In terms of what?

 

[Haruhiko]

In terms of what?

In terms of practising a martial art that is arguably the product of many duels to the death as well as strategic experience on the battlefield.

 

[Gyakuto]

In terms of practising a martial art that is arguably the product of many duels to the death as well as strategic experience on the battlefield.

You’d have to look at the history of your Koryu practises and think about your personal standards of what a koryu is; not all Koryu are ‘made’ equal and some simply adopt that term to appear ‘authentic’.

Muso Shinden Ryu Iai is classed as a Koryu art, but in was only systematised in the 1920s. It was very closely based on a much older school but as an entity in and of itself, it’s only about 100 years old. I personally consider it a Koryu because of that basis, but as others pull it further and further away from that origin, there will come a point when one might have to stand back and say, “OK, now this is something newer.” but that’s a bit subjective.

 

[_Simon_]

Are there any extant Okinawan systems that consider themselves "jutsu" oriented?

Do vs Jutsu. Again.

Blog about Japanese martial arts, gendai and koryu budo, koryu bugei

budobum.blogspot.com

Always a good read when jutsu/do discussion comes up.

Fantastic little article, 100% agree with it!

 

[Gyakuto]

I try to use ‘Iai’ rather than Iaido/jutsu.

Many like to say they’re “doin’ jutsu, cos they’re only learnin’ to kill and stuff” because they feel the appellation makes them appear tougher than ‘do’ and it’s apparent emphasis on ‘spiritual advancement’. Utter Draegerism-derived nonsense!

 

[Haruhiko]

I try to use ‘Iai’ rather than Iaido/jutsu.

Many like to say they’re “doin’ jutsu, cos they’re only learnin’ to kill and stuff” because they feel the appellation makes them appear tougher than ‘do’ and it’s apparent emphasis on ‘spiritual advancement’. Utter Draegerism-derived nonsense!

My sensei says iai as well.

I study and train in MSR and HNIR. The latter of which certainly satisfies your criteria. MSR was revised by Nakayama Hakudo in the early 20th century. Not standardised, but revised; Musō Shinden-Ryū was the initial name of Hayashizake Jinsuke's school. Some believe it to be the more "true" branch of its sister school MJER, which has a bunch of claimant sokē-ships.

Don't throw the Draeger out with the bath water though! Him and his contemporaries essentially introduced koryū kobudo to the western world.

 

[Gyakuto]

My sensei says iai as well.

Interestingly, Westerners tend to pronounce it ‘ee-eye’ whereas Japanese people say ‘ee-eye-ee’!

Don't throw the Draeger out with the bath water though! Him and his contemporaries essentially introduced koryū kobudo to the western world.

Of course, but he also introduced misconceptions too which have been unhelpful and held back our understanding somewhat.

 

[Fungus]

Greco-Roman Wrestling, despite its age, probably isn't considered traditional by most people. It's old, but its traditions are lost to time.

I did this a bit as a small kid. While I remember some throws, I also remember that even as a kid I found the ruleset pathological as many effective leg techniques was not allowed, and I never understood why. As it is not dangerous. It just went against naturallness to ban an obviously effective combat technique. In this sense, it's construction seems to not have logical combat philosophy.

In other arts, techniques are banned for saftey, that is perfectly fine. But why on earth ban leg techniques? Anyone know btw?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But why on earth ban leg techniques? Anyone know btw?

What's your definition of "leg technique"?

I know "inner leg break",

and "leg twist" are banned in Judo.

 

[Fungus]

What's your definition of "leg technique"?

"While the scoring and rules of a match in Greco Roman and freestyle wrestling are more or less similar, there are some key technical differences between both.

The biggest is that in Greco Roman wrestling, holds below the waist are prohibited and neither is a Greco Roman wrestler allowed to use his legs actively to perform any offensive or defensive actions.

Hence, wrestlers have to rely a lot on their upper bodies to gain the advantage as compared to freestyle wrestling."
-- https://olympics.com/en/news/what-how-greco-roman-wrestling-style-rules-scoring-techniques-olympics

Most techniques are about getting your opponent off ground, and litteraly throwing them one way or the other, pivoting them on your own back or hip or maybe chest, either lifting or pulling their upper body or arms. So mostly throws, as well as of course grappling on the ground.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

neither is a Greco Roman wrestler allowed to use his legs actively to perform any offensive or defensive actions.

The beauty of the wrestling art is the "leg skill". A striker may know how to use leg to trap his opponent's leg, but he may not know how to use his "leg skill".

Here is an example to use "outer hook" to counter "head lock".

 

[Fungus]

The beauty of the wrestling art is the "leg skill". A striker may know how to use leg to trap his opponent's leg, but he may not know how to use his "leg skill".

Yes I agree, except for Greece Roman Wrestling then, which confirms the "pathology"

What I learned and remember from Greece Roman Wrestling is that a good defence is always to lower your center of gravity, that makes it alot harder for the opponent to lift you.

But once you have the opponent off the ground, you own them, as it's hard to defend without rooting.

My main takeaway from that into Karate is that I think i have a pretty good balance, and keep a little lower posture than average kyokushin, and are harder to sweep.