mma is a made up martial art.

[Tez3]

FYI, the Tough Man Contest was never an MMA event. It's basically an amateur boxing competition marketed for untrained fighters.



Meh, you can be a splitter or a lumper as far as terminology goes. Makes no difference to me so long as you can communicate your point. You can say "he faked a rear leg kick, then used the momentum from the leg action to help power a leaping right cross/reverse punch" or you can say "he threw a Superman punch." One way is more concise, but whatever floats your boat.

CV productions say they did the first MMA in the USA so guess you had better take it up with them for false advertising the. It does say they did boxing also but they are quite definite about the MMA.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

CV productions say they did the first MMA in the USA so guess you had better take it up with them for false advertising the. It does say they did boxing also but they are quite definite about the MMA.

I stand corrected. I thought you were referring to the Toughman Contest. According to the folks at CV Productions, they held multiple events in 1980 under the Tough Guy (later Super Fighters) name before quitting in 1981 due to legal pressure.

Most of the info I can find on these events goes back to promotional claims by Mr. Viola and Mr. Caliguri themselves. This article includes additional info. Apparently for the original event they recruited local street fighters. Experienced boxers or martial artists above green belt were banned from taking part. Later on they planned to start a professional league with actual experienced martial artists, but quit due to legal issues before getting to that point. This might explain why the events aren't widely known among martial artists and MMA buffs the way the Gene Lebell-Milo Savage match is.

It's an interesting bit of historical trivia, but it doesn't have much connection to the development of modern MMA.

 

[drop bear]

Going back to the original purpose of the thread, my understanding was that MMA competition as we recognise it today evolved from the Brazilian vale tudo bouts, which began mainly to settle rivalries between BJJ and luta livre practitioners

but mma terminology is not bjj. Using the superman punch again as an example.

also there are mma schools that do not have a bjj affiliation. We are one for example.

 

[drop bear]

That abracadabra kick is also a fake integrated into the kick. I have seen kicks like that. It is chambered like a round kick and then turned into a front kick half way through. I t is a goober looking kick but does the job it is supposed to do.

 

[drop bear]

Going back to the original purpose of the thread, my understanding was that MMA competition as we recognise it today evolved from the Brazilian vale tudo bouts, which began mainly to settle rivalries between BJJ and luta livre practitioners

there is a capoeira reference to that. Many all mma terms should be in Portuguese.

Foi No Clar o Da Lua CapoeiraSongBook.com

 

[K-man]

That abracadabra kick is also a fake integrated into the kick. I have seen kicks like that. It is chambered like a round kick and then turned into a front kick half way through. I t is a goober looking kick but does the job it is supposed to do.

And thirty years ago we were doing feints to the thigh before a kick to the head. It was still Mawashi geri!

 

[drop bear]

And thirty years ago we were doing feints to the thigh before a kick to the head. It was still Mawashi geri!

so you were calling front kicks round kicks?

 

[RTKDCMB]

The 'naming' of techniques and the use of specific strikes in MMA has nothing to do with martial arts and all to do with marketing a fighter. It's not enough these days to be a good fighter and win fighters, you have to have something to catch the promoters and the public's eye. You have to stand out, one way to do this is to be known for doing a flash move. So that when people talk about MMA they say 'wow Joe Bloggs and his wizard kick'. They will buy 'wizard kick' t-shirts, videos showing them how to do it etc. It's commercial and it works, the video you posted proves that lol.

That's the same way it works for professional wrestlers in promotions like the WWE..

 

[RTKDCMB]

'fly tipping'

Is that like cow tipping?

 

[Tez3]

I stand corrected. I thought you were referring to the Toughman Contest. According to the folks at CV Productions, they held multiple events in 1980 under the Tough Guy (later Super Fighters) name before quitting in 1981 due to legal pressure.

Most of the info I can find on these events goes back to promotional claims by Mr. Viola and Mr. Caliguri themselves. This article includes additional info. Apparently for the original event they recruited local street fighters. Experienced boxers or martial artists above green belt were banned from taking part. Later on they planned to start a professional league with actual experienced martial artists, but quit due to legal issues before getting to that point. This might explain why the events aren't widely known among martial artists and MMA buffs the way the Gene Lebell-Milo Savage match is.

It's an interesting bit of historical trivia, but it doesn't have much connection to the development of modern MMA.

It's still part of 'MMA history' though, just as Pankration is and the no hold barred competitions of Europe and Asia. MMA didn't spring up fully formed when the UFC was formed, even that evolved into what it is now. There is a tendency for many to think that MMA and the UFC is the same thing

 

[RTKDCMB]

That abracadabra kick is also a fake integrated into the kick. I have seen kicks like that. It is chambered like a round kick and then turned into a front kick half way through. I t is a goober looking kick but does the job it is supposed to do.

It is basically a reverse question mark kick, why not just call it that?

 

[drop bear]

It is basically a reverse question mark kick, why not just call it that?

see i have no issue calling it that. But some people may consider the name made up and so would demand it be called something else.

 

[RTKDCMB]

see i have no issue calling it that. But some people may consider the name made up and so would demand it be called something else.

But at least if they called it that people would have at least some idea what they were talking about without having.to watch a specific video calling it by a name such as an abracadabra (sounds like some kind of magic underwear) kick.

 

[K-man]

so you were calling front kicks round kicks?

Noooh! The first was a lower roundhouse and the second was a high roundhouse. The point being their was a combination of two kicks where the first was a feint. The kick delivered was Mawashi geri, or roundhouse kick. Nothing magical, nothing made up and nothing new. We also often did a feint of a front kick before delivering an oi tsucki or front punch.

 

[drop bear]

Noooh! The first was a lower roundhouse and the second was a high roundhouse. The point being their was a combination of two kicks where the first was a feint. The kick delivered was Mawashi geri, or roundhouse kick. Nothing magical, nothing made up and nothing new. We also often did a feint of a front kick before delivering an oi tsucki or front punch.

it lands as a front kick. Rtkdcmb,s description of it being a reverse question mark is a fairly apt description.

the path it travels is like an upside down question mark. You even dot their eye with it.

 

[K-man]

it lands as a front kick. Rtkdcmb,s description of it being a reverse question mark is a fairly apt description.

the path it travels is like an upside down question mark. You even dot their eye with it.

Um! Yes, right! You were quoting my post when you wrote ...

so you were calling front kicks round kicks?

I was simply pointing out to you that there were many examples of combinations going way back. Perhaps again I could ask you to read my posts carefully. If there's something you don't understand, just ask, don't second guess. In my post I gave an example of the combination of two roundhouse kicks, one low and one high, one a feint, the other delivered. That was to show that it was not unusual for martial artists to combine techniques where sometimes on of the techniques was a feint.

 

[drop bear]

Um! Yes, right! You were quoting my post when you wrote ...
I was simply pointing out to you that there were many examples of combinations going way back. Perhaps again I could ask you to read my posts carefully. If there's something you don't understand, just ask, don't second guess. In my post I gave an example of the combination of two roundhouse kicks, one low and one high, one a feint, the other delivered. That was to show that it was not unusual for martial artists to combine techniques where sometimes on of the techniques was a feint.

but this is not a combination. It is a Frankenstein half round half front kick.

 

[punisher73]

As always, there is nothing new under the sun. From historical records, we know that man has had some sort of combat sport pretty much since he organized himself into cities.

As far as "mixed martial arts". For most people, in the US, it is synonymous with the UFC. Brazil had it's Vale Tudo competitions, but they were not widespread. There were probably others as well all over the place. The first few UFC's were very much a "style vs. style" approach. As it gained in popularity, fighters started to cross train to win fights and fill the holes in their approach. One of the first "big name" UFC fighters to gain popularity with this idea was Marco Ruas. He called it "Ruas Vale Tudo" and gained immediate fan support for the first TKO of a fighter just using his Muay Thai roundhouse kick over and over to Paul Varlenes (sp?). Fighters started to add BJJ to their mix and started to win, next phase was the wrestler with his ground and pound approach. Then you had strikers who had great takedown defense and could keep it standing (Chuck Liddell) and brought back the striker as champions.

There were other competitions as well. The other big giant known to viewers in the US was PrideFC in Japan. You saw a different set of techniques being used there in comparision to the UFC because of a different rule set and a different fighting venue (boxing ring vs. caged octagon). Fighters going from one to the other weren't always successful due to these reasons.

All of this is to say that the UFC has "mainstreamed" the rules used by most competitions now along with the overseeing athletic commissions to make it legal in the US. Yes, there are still other ones out there, but none that have the pull and popularity in the US. So, what we see as "mixed martial arts" is a combination of techniques and tactics that have shown a high percentage of effectiveness in the UFC rule set for the way Americans think about it. For other competitions, you may see a different mix of things based on those rules and what arts are popular where those competitions take place.

I have not seen anything in any of the "MMA" competitions that can't be found in a traditional art somewhere.

 

[Tez3]

As always, there is nothing new under the sun. From historical records, we know that man has had some sort of combat sport pretty much since he organized himself into cities.

As far as "mixed martial arts". For most people, in the US, it is synonymous with the UFC. Brazil had it's Vale Tudo competitions, but they were not widespread. There were probably others as well all over the place. The first few UFC's were very much a "style vs. style" approach. As it gained in popularity, fighters started to cross train to win fights and fill the holes in their approach. One of the first "big name" UFC fighters to gain popularity with this idea was Marco Ruas. He called it "Ruas Vale Tudo" and gained immediate fan support for the first TKO of a fighter just using his Muay Thai roundhouse kick over and over to Paul Varlenes (sp?). Fighters started to add BJJ to their mix and started to win, next phase was the wrestler with his ground and pound approach. Then you had strikers who had great takedown defense and could keep it standing (Chuck Liddell) and brought back the striker as champions.

There were other competitions as well. The other big giant known to viewers in the US was PrideFC in Japan. You saw a different set of techniques being used there in comparision to the UFC because of a different rule set and a different fighting venue (boxing ring vs. caged octagon). Fighters going from one to the other weren't always successful due to these reasons.

All of this is to say that the UFC has "mainstreamed" the rules used by most competitions now along with the overseeing athletic commissions to make it legal in the US. Yes, there are still other ones out there, but none that have the pull and popularity in the US. So, what we see as "mixed martial arts" is a combination of techniques and tactics that have shown a high percentage of effectiveness in the UFC rule set for the way Americans think about it. For other competitions, you may see a different mix of things based on those rules and what arts are popular where those competitions take place.

I have not seen anything in any of the "MMA" competitions that can't be found in a traditional art somewhere.

I wish we could click on more than one thing for this post so instead 'Thank You', 'I Agree' and 'I very much like' .

 

[punisher73]

the showtime kick.

(it is a made up name by the way. And probably a made up kick)

I remember reading about Funakoshi's training and he had a class of kicks that included using an object to jump off from to kick an opponent. I think it was called a trinity kick, or something along those lines. Specific might be different, but I remember doing the same stuff as a kid playing around.