MMA is like Facebook?

[Kframe]

So it because of the differences in application, influenced by culture and tactical therorys of the arts that make it unsuitable for the octagon. Those same principles that make it unsuitable for the octagon, do they make it suitable for the street?

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm, that's not as easy to answer.... from a technical standpoint, if you keep all the movement "traditional", then yeah, it's really not suited for modern violence. But if you're looking at the principles, tactics, strategies, then they are far more suited to the street than to a competitive arena.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I havent looked up the videos, so this is based on kframes and chris parkers statements...but if its the case where the techniques are viable and the context i not, wouldn't it be relatively simple to train someone and help them adapt their techniques to the octagan in the three months before a match? Or was your comment referring to if they entered the octagan with no prior warning/adaption training?

 

[Chris Parker]

No. Again, the techniques aren't the point. To do what you're suggesting is to remove what makes it the art it is, and turn it into something else, which defeats the idea of using that art in that arena.

 

[Drasken]

People get too hung up on techniques and tend to forget the philosophy and approach the style was developed under. Technically speaking, I'm sure ninjutsu or Aikido or really ANY style could be trained and adapted for the ring. But doing so takes much more away from a style than just modifying techniques.
MMA was developed for a specific purpose. It fills this niche very effectively and should be respected for what it is. Other styles do the same. Now training a style in a way that it can be effective in modern times is very useful in my opinion, but you also have to keep in mind the philosophy and traditional approach the art has in various situations. It's a delicate balance.

That being said, if I stepped into the octagon with an MMA fighter, I'd probably do alright with my Krav Maga training. But if I tried a point sarring tournament such as the ones from TKD or various forms of Karate, well I would not make it past the first round most likely. It has less to do with the effectiveness of the style and more with the niche it is meant to fill.

It's like I said in a debate the other night with some friends of mine. Effectiveness doesn't mean universal usefulness. A shark is one of the most efficient killing machines on the planet. Take it out of the water and it is still dangerous. Any experienced deep sea fisherman can tell you that. But it isn't even half as effective as it would be in its own element.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I dont think that I stated correctly what I was asking. It was not if Bujinkan could be used in an MMA setting. It was if a person with a Bujinkan background, could use those techniques to learn MMA as an art well enough to successfully use it in the ring. I wasn't implying Bujinkan would excel in that sporting area, but that a Bujinkan practitioner could, in those three months, could become proficient enough in MMA to do well in it.

 

[Chris Parker]

No, they'd be better off training MMA. A large amount of the repertoire found in the ninjutsu schools is unfeasible in a competitive setting, for a range of reasons, not least of all is the different time-line applied.

 

[frank raud]

I dont think that I stated correctly what I was asking. It was not if Bujinkan could be used in an MMA setting. It was if a person with a Bujinkan background, could use those techniques to learn MMA as an art well enough to successfully use it in the ring. I wasn't implying Bujinkan would excel in that sporting area, but that a Bujinkan practitioner could, in those three months, could become proficient enough in MMA to do well in it.

The UFC has been around for 20 years, there is no art that will provide you with enough solid basics in MMA that 3 months training will make you proficient. Brock Lesnar was a division 1 wrestler prior to his pro wrestling career, and a beast of a man, who took a year to train in preparation for his first MMA fight, which he promptly lost. When he won, it was usually by overpowering his opponents, most of whom he out weighed by 40-50 pounds of muscle. The days of "6 months of sprawl training" are long gone.

 

[martial sparrer]

I realized that the reason why there are only a couple kicks that are used constantly is because if you miss, have bad technique, you end up giving your back to be taken down.....for the life of me I couldn't understand why fighters in ufc don't do side kicks....but your body is at the side and you are probably leaning away with bad balance, or someone can catch your foot etc. most fighters tend to use front kicks, roundhouse to leg, or high round to head so that they are still facing their opponent. gsp doesn't even do anymore spin back kicks

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The UFC has been around for 20 years, there is no art that will provide you with enough solid basics in MMA that 3 months training will make you proficient. Brock Lesnar was a division 1 wrestler prior to his pro wrestling career, and a beast of a man, who took a year to train in preparation for his first MMA fight, which he promptly lost. When he won, it was usually by overpowering his opponents, most of whom he out weighed by 40-50 pounds of muscle. The days of "6 months of sprawl training" are long gone.

Sorry for not replying...i had, but I guess i forget to click post reply...
With my question, it was under the idea that the art bujinkan, according tot he earlier post, teaches all the same techniques as MMA, just with different contextual uses.Wrestling, nor any other art that I know of, does that, which makes me wonder if that statement about bujinkan is true, since if it was it wouldn't make sense (to me) that no one had ever gone from bujinkan to MMA, or learned bujinkan when cross training for MMA (which was the direction i was planning on going with my original question)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Sorry for not replying...i had, but I guess i forget to click post reply...
With my question, it was under the idea that the art bujinkan, according tot he earlier post, teaches all the same techniques as MMA, just with different contextual uses.Wrestling, nor any other art that I know of, does that, which makes me wonder if that statement about bujinkan is true, since if it was it wouldn't make sense (to me) that no one had ever gone from bujinkan to MMA, or learned bujinkan when cross training for MMA (which was the direction i was planning on going with my original question)

I would say that statement is not true. The techniques I learned in the Bujinkan are very different from the techniques I've learned in MMA.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Due to this quote, it sounded like MMA and Bujinkan were a lot more similar then I had recently known, which is what had confused me...

Chris parker, I don't want to quoute your entire post, so please forgive me. You mentioned that a Bujinkan Budo Tai Jitsu pratictioner would be in trouble in the Octagon. May I ask Why? I have been watching some videos of BBT and it seams like a solid martial art, with strikes, and throws and joint locks and chokes. I was impressed with a number of things I saw in the videos, breakfalling techniques, and weapon techniques looked good to me. Such as the various knife defenses. Taking the weapons out of the question, what aspects of the striking and grappling of the martial art leave something to be desired in the octagon? I know that mma gyms focus a lot on conditioning,( my mma gym's have helped me lose a lot of weight) could conditioning be what your referring to?[/QUOTEYour other quote was what I had assumed, which would explain why people dont ever cross train in Bujinkan.

 

[Chris Parker]

I realized that the reason why there are only a couple kicks that are used constantly is because if you miss, have bad technique, you end up giving your back to be taken down.....for the life of me I couldn't understand why fighters in ufc don't do side kicks....but your body is at the side and you are probably leaning away with bad balance, or someone can catch your foot etc. most fighters tend to use front kicks, roundhouse to leg, or high round to head so that they are still facing their opponent. gsp doesn't even do anymore spin back kicks

Uh... no.

Sorry for not replying...i had, but I guess i forget to click post reply...
With my question, it was under the idea that the art bujinkan, according tot he earlier post, teaches all the same techniques as MMA, just with different contextual uses.Wrestling, nor any other art that I know of, does that, which makes me wonder if that statement about bujinkan is true, since if it was it wouldn't make sense (to me) that no one had ever gone from bujinkan to MMA, or learned bujinkan when cross training for MMA (which was the direction i was planning on going with my original question)

No, as Tony said, they are quite different... in most areas. The basic groupings are similar, and the point I was making earlier was that it wasn't that the throws (for instance) wouldn't physically "work", it was that they weren't designed (in the way they are set up, executed, performed, and so on) to be employed in an MMA context.

I would say that statement is not true. The techniques I learned in the Bujinkan are very different from the techniques I've learned in MMA.

Yep!

Due to this quote, it sounded like MMA and Bujinkan were a lot more similar then I had recently known, which is what had confused me...

Chris parker, I don't want to quoute your entire post, so please forgive me. You mentioned that a Bujinkan Budo Tai Jitsu pratictioner would be in trouble in the Octagon. May I ask Why? I have been watching some videos of BBT and it seams like a solid martial art, with strikes, and throws and joint locks and chokes. I was impressed with a number of things I saw in the videos, breakfalling techniques, and weapon techniques looked good to me. Such as the various knife defenses. Taking the weapons out of the question, what aspects of the striking and grappling of the martial art leave something to be desired in the octagon? I know that mma gyms focus a lot on conditioning,( my mma gym's have helped me lose a lot of weight) could conditioning be what your referring to?

Your other quote was what I had assumed, which would explain why people dont ever cross train in Bujinkan.

Now, here's where it gets a little messier... I know of a number of people "cross-training" in the Bujinkan (as a primary or secondary art), while training in Judo, or BJJ, or FMA, or Kendo, or Iaido, or many other things. I also know of a couple of Bujinkan people who have entered MMA-style competitions as well... but, to be frank, very little "Bujinkan" comes out in the ring. For very good reason.

 

[SandaBoxing]

Ninja focus on breaking your spirit rather than the body...if you break one the other follows...I would be very excited to see an experienced Ninjutsu practioner get in a MMA ring. Remember MMA is a sport...Ninpo Taijutsu is for life or death situations

Keep on living the dream....Most Ninjas were farmers and crap, who had no chance 1 on 1 vs. the well trained and battle hardened Samurais. So the Ninjas mostly resorted to backstabbing (literally), sniping with arrows and poisoning food and water to kill their enemies. They were cowards pretty much.

 

[Chris Parker]

Keep on living the dream....Most Ninjas were farmers and crap, who had no chance 1 on 1 vs. the well trained and battle hardened Samurais. So the Ninjas mostly resorted to backstabbing (literally), sniping with arrows and poisoning food and water to kill their enemies. They were cowards pretty much.

Hmm.

First off, welcome to the forum.

Secondly, you're replying to a post from over a year ago, which has been thoroughly and completely countered by the membership here (including myself), from a poster who hasn't been here in nearly as long.

Thirdly, you're completely wrong in your own post, on all counts. Ninja were not farmers, anymore than samurai were farmers (some were, particularly the more rural ones, but that's unnecessarily complicating things&#8230, they were, more commonly than anything, samurai. Ninjutsu was simply the skills of information gathering and espionage, including scouting, spying, recon, spreading mis-information, and so on. They were not, let's be clear, "assassins" in any way, shape, or form. There is no account of any "ninja assassination" in any historical records of Japan, but there are plenty of cases of samurai engaging in such actions. As an example, here is part of a recent Facebook post I put on my schools page:

What is Ninjutsu?

For many, their impression of what Ninjutsu is comes primarily from entertainment media… movies, television, and (these days), the internet, including such memes as the one shown here. But, of course, these aren't quite the same as the reality.

Ninjutsu can have two different definitions, depending on if you're looking at historical uses of the term, or modern. Historically, the term doesn't even refer to combative martial arts… it's a skill set centred around information gathering and espionage. It was simply another skill set in the arsenal of the various armies, just as it is today. Over time, certain areas of Japan became quite synonymous with these skills… to the point that warriors from those areas (Iga and Koga/Kohka) came to be referred to specifically as "ninja" (although, at the time, they were simply called "Iga no Bushi/Koga no Bushi"… meaning "warriors from Iga/Koga").

Today, the term refers more to the combative martial arts associated with those warriors from Iga and Koga… although the only ones believed to have survived are a small number from the Iga region. All modern Ninjutsu organisations that claim to teach authentic Ninjutsu are actually most often teaching those martial systems from these areas of Japan. And, being more traditional Japanese arts, they don't look much like what's seen in the movies.

And, finally, that video? Yeah… the kid in it doesn't have anything to do with ninjutsu, ninja, or anything of the kind. In fact, I have no idea where they got the idea that he was… unless he suggested it himself… all it was was rather low-level MMA from him, and he was (rightly) outclassed by someone better. Doesn't mean anything about ninjutsu, though.

 

[SandaBoxing]

Hmm.

Thirdly, you're completely wrong in your own post, on all counts. Ninja were not farmers, anymore than samurai were farmers (some were, particularly the more rural ones, but that's unnecessarily complicating things…), they were, more commonly than anything, samurai. Ninjutsu was simply the skills of information gathering and espionage, including scouting, spying, recon, spreading mis-information, and so on. They were not, let's be clear, "assassins" in any way, shape, or form. There is no account of any "ninja assassination" in any historical records of Japan, but there are plenty of cases of samurai engaging in such actions. As an example, here is part of a recent Facebook post I put on my schools page:

Thanks for the info. I shouldn't have made such statements about Ninjas as I'm no expert nor really have that much interest in finding out. While I did enjoy what you posted about them and will accept it as more informed than my unresearched version.

And, finally, that video? Yeah… the kid in it doesn't have anything to do with ninjutsu, ninja, or anything of the kind. In fact, I have no idea where they got the idea that he was… unless he suggested it himself… all it was was rather low-level MMA from him, and he was (rightly) outclassed by someone better. Doesn't mean anything about ninjutsu, though.

Yea, that was more of a fun video that I posted because there really aren't enough Ninja vs. MMA videos to prove anything (I think there's 2). In general, fighting is fighting and MMA is going to beat most TMA's because we train and do, knock people out as part of our training and this isn't even stepping into the cage to fight yet. In MMA, you can't help but get better at fighting than those who don't fight nor spar hard. Based on what you wrote about Ninjitsu, it's seems to be just another variation of Japanese Jujutsu and maybe some Karate; with authentic Ninjitsu being more about espionage, so watered down or non-authentic Ninjitsu may even be better for fighting than the real thing. I was training with a Traditional Japanese Jujutsu group that partnered with a Ninjitsu one, and they train a lot of what we trained in Jujutsu.

 

[drop bear]

Hmm.

First off, welcome to the forum.

Secondly, you're replying to a post from over a year ago, which has been thoroughly and completely countered by the membership here (including myself), from a poster who hasn't been here in nearly as long.

Thirdly, you're completely wrong in your own post, on all counts. Ninja were not farmers, anymore than samurai were farmers (some were, particularly the more rural ones, but that's unnecessarily complicating things&#8230, they were, more commonly than anything, samurai. Ninjutsu was simply the skills of information gathering and espionage, including scouting, spying, recon, spreading mis-information, and so on. They were not, let's be clear, "assassins" in any way, shape, or form. There is no account of any "ninja assassination" in any historical records of Japan, but there are plenty of cases of samurai engaging in such actions. As an example, here is part of a recent Facebook post I put on my schools page:



And, finally, that video? Yeah… the kid in it doesn't have anything to do with ninjutsu, ninja, or anything of the kind. In fact, I have no idea where they got the idea that he was… unless he suggested it himself… all it was was rather low-level MMA from him, and he was (rightly) outclassed by someone better. Doesn't mean anything about ninjutsu, though.

What does ninjitsu sparring look like by the way?

 

[Chris Parker]

Thanks for the info. I shouldn't have made such statements about Ninjas as I'm no expert nor really have that much interest in finding out. While I did enjoy what you posted about them and will accept it as more informed than my unresearched version.

Okay.

Yea, that was more of a fun video that I posted because there really aren't enough Ninja vs. MMA videos to prove anything (I think there's 2).

Scott Morris and Steve Jennum are probably the two best known MMA competitors with a "ninjutsu" background… the other clips I've seen (including the one you posted) are kids who don't have any connection to ninjutsu at all, outside of some deluded fantasy.

Okay, the next part is going to be broken up a bit… hopefully the context of your comments will stay intact.

In general, fighting is fighting

Actually, no, it's not. It's highly context-dependant. The forms of fighting encountered and needed by a sports competitor are fairly different to the requirements of a self-defence practitioner, which is different again to a military form of fighting, different again to what's encountered and needed by LEO's and security personnel, which is very different to that encountered in various historical systems… even in modern societies, differences in cultures give you wild differences in what constitutes "fighting".

and MMA is going to beat most TMA's because we train and do, knock people out as part of our training

I do hope you're not trying to imply some form of superiority there… or that such things are unique to MMA training…

and this isn't even stepping into the cage to fight yet.

Well, I've knocked people out, both in class and outside of it, and all that without sparring at all… hmm…

Of course, it has to be said that if your'e knocking each other out before getting into a cage, then there's some issues to be looked at in your training approach…

In MMA, you can't help but get better at fighting than those who don't fight nor spar hard.

Actually, no. The thing with sparring is that it is designed to allow you to come up with your own approach, meaning that it is highly personalised in terms of it's ability to engender fighting skills. If you're naturally talented, then it helps greatly, if you're not so naturally skilled, it can be a much harder road than others.

But again, are you really saying that MMA is the only approach that covers such things? Hmm…

Based on what you wrote about Ninjitsu, it's seems to be just another variation of Japanese Jujutsu

Hmm… no. Oh, and for the record, it's "ninjutsu", not "ninjitsu". What is currently taught within Ninjutsu schools (the Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan etc), when it comes to the combative skills, is taken largely from Jujutsu systems (although the actual terminology varies… the standard common term is "Taijutsu", or "body skills"), yeah… but that's a bit different.

and maybe some Karate;

Nope.

with authentic Ninjitsu being more about espionage,

Historic ninjutsu, authentic is another kettle of fish…

so watered down or non-authentic Ninjitsu may even be better for fighting than the real thing.

When dealing with historical martial systems, that's really besides the point.

I was training with a Traditional Japanese Jujutsu group that partnered with a Ninjitsu one, and they train a lot of what we trained in Jujutsu.

Physically, yeah. Of course, each system has it's own idiosyncrasies…

 

[Chris Parker]

What does ninjitsu sparring look like by the way?

We don't spar… at least, not in the sense that you're familiar with. It's counter-productive, to be frank.

 

[drop bear]

We don't spar… at least, not in the sense that you're familiar with. It's counter-productive, to be frank.

How do you know that guy was not a ninja. Maybe that is what they look like when they spar.

What do you look like when you fight then?