miyamoto mushashi: how to perceive intention of your opponent

[Brian R. VanCise]

You have got to be kidding me....this isn't going to end unless someone admits to being wrong?

There's some pathology going on round here.....

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It does seem that way TGace!




I have like five minutes before I have to go teach to respond.

Chris,

You and I are not going to agree.

I don't have time to read every post your write and break it down line for line.

I have said my piece and frankly I am happy with my position. I am sorry that you are not.

We are not going to agree let's put on our big boy pants and move on. Such is life!

I still wish you the best! No hard feelings on my part. We can agree to disagree and that is okay.

 

[Hyoho]

mushashi wrote in his classic "a book of five rings" that you must perceive the intention of your opponent and before he makes a move, you make a move.

he advised the following way to perceive intention of opponent:

1. becoming the opponent:

you should put yourself in opponents shoe and try to think from his point of view what he can do. if your opponent knows that you are a master of MA, he might think he may lose or he may be mentally weak.


2. arresting the shadow

you may use any advantageous rhythm to determine opponents motive and then you can find winning advantage.

3. mismatch the rhythm

you must take a rhythm that does not match that of your opponent. this is described in para like "mountain and sea change" or " knowing disintegration" etc.

from the fire scroll in the book of five rings by miyomoto mushashi

Before he makes a move, you make a move? Well its a little more subtle than that. Do the practice, read the book and will be revealed. The other two quotes have nothing to do with it and describe methods used in waza.

 

[Hyoho]

Legend really has little to do with it. There are some people reading here that are members of what is a Musashi's living tradition. One that is taught without adaptation.

The availability of water for washing in the Kumamoto mountains in the late 1600s has little to do with it either. Here today in the Philippine mountains in 2013 there are few that were able to take a shower either!
But living in the mountains away from civilization does give one a chance to reflect upon ones decisions in life. Still didn't take that shower but wow, now I have internet.

The Clearly book is not to bad. There is but one translation of Gorin no Sho in English that I have by a practitioner that is yet to be published.

One saying comes to mind. "The best waza were taught by those that were still alive to teach it".

 

[Chris Parker]

I have like five minutes before I have to go teach to respond.

Chris,

You and I are not going to agree.

I don't have time to read every post your write and break it down line for line.

I have said my piece and frankly I am happy with my position. I am sorry that you are not.

We are not going to agree let's put on our big boy pants and move on. Such is life!

I still wish you the best! No hard feelings on my part. We can agree to disagree and that is okay.

You don't have time to read, yet you're still responding?

Brian. Read what I've written. Your beliefs about my position are incorrect from the outset, and you have consistently misrepresented my position, and ignored my comments. If you can't be bothered to read what I've said, you can't argue against it, as you have no idea what you're arguing against.

If you answer, make sure you have time to read first.

 

[Tgace]

View attachment $dedication-wrong-leave-internet-demotivational-poster-1272856078.jpg

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I'm done here Chris. This is simply not worth my time.

 

[Sanke]

I'm done here Chris. This is simply not worth my time.

With all due respect Brian, I don't think you've given this thread any time at all. You've constantly disregarded Chris's points, even insisting on unrelated points (such as insisting on Chris believing all the legends, despite him clearly stating otherwise), and then not even addressing the issues raised by just saying you can 'agree to disagree'.
If you're going to have a discussion, at least address the points raised by others, rather than avoiding them.


For example, I'm still wondering about your logic behind Musashi not being 'saintly' when he is referred to as kensei. The uses of the term saint are completely unrelated, so how do you figure that Musashi would be considered un-saintly?


I think it's worth at least reading what's being said before deciding to walk away from a discussion.

 

[Tgace]

With all due respect Brian, I don't think you've given this thread any time at all. You've constantly disregarded Chris's points, even insisting on unrelated points (such as insisting on Chris believing all the legends, despite him clearly stating otherwise), and then not even addressing the issues raised by just saying you can 'agree to disagree'.
If you're going to have a discussion, at least address the points raised by others, rather than avoiding them.


For example, I'm still wondering about your logic behind Musashi not being 'saintly' when he is referred to as kensei. The uses of the term saint are completely unrelated, so how do you figure that Musashi would be considered un-saintly?


I think it's worth at least reading what's being said before deciding to walk away from a discussion.

Another ninja from down under beating the dead horse......

:deadhorse

Look. If I wanted to say I thought Musashi was taught by aliens from alpha centauri and wasn't going to read what you had to say...so what??

Some of ya'll are starting to look a bit mental in your drive to always be right.....and this is coming from ME.

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[Sanke]

Thing is, it's not really about being seen as right, it's more that everything that's been brought up has been ignored.
As far as Musashi not being all legend would have him be, yeah, he really wasn't.
It's statements that are blatantly incorrect that are the issue, such as him only being known for his swordsmanship, when he was far better known as an artist. That's not an opinion, that's just history.
And when it's put out there, it's been ignored or brushed off as a side note, when it's actually quite relevant to the discussion.

If you don't care to discuss anymore, that's fine, but as long as there are these glaring issues in what people are saying, someone's going to point them out.

 

[Tgace]

If you don't care to discuss anymore, that's fine, but as long as there are these glaring issues in what people are saying, someone's going to point them out.

What..they haven't been pointed out enough?? We all get it. You and Chris (obviously associated) disagree with Brian. Got it.

This incessant demand to "READ THE THREAD!" is more than "pointing out issues"....this is some bizzare last wordsmanship game combined with an "ADMIT YOU ARE WRONG!" demand.

Its weird ...even for the interwebs.

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[Tgace]

There's plenty in TBFR on strategy, martial philosophy and other "non sword" topics to learn from.

The "fire book" is probably the one that is mostly sword specific....

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I take this back. I was erroneous in my books....its actually the water book that has very sword specific passages that someone not practicing Musashi's art would probably misunderstand. Stuff like:

The Flowing Water Cut

The "Flowing Water Cut" is used when you are struggling blade to blade with the enemy. When he breaks and quickly withdraws trying to spring with his long sword, expand your body and spirit and cut him as slowly as possible with your long sword, following your body like stagnant water. You can cut with certainty if you learn this. You must discern the enemy's grade.

Pretty much all the rest of the book is as accessible to the "strategist" reader as Sun Tzu's work. Or the compilation of work ascribed to the name Sun Tzu....whatever.

http://www.cyberpathway.com/musashi/

The fire book contains passages such as:

Everything can collapse. Houses, bodies, and enemies collapse when their rhythm becomes deranged.

In large-scale strategy, when the enemy starts to collapse, you must pursue him without letting the chance go. If you fail to take advantage of your enemies' collapse, they may recover.

In single combat, the enemy sometimes loses timing and collapses. If you let this opportunity pass, he may recover and not be so negligent thereafter. Fixyour eye on the enemy's collapse, and chase him, attacking so that you do not let him recover. You must do this. The chasing attack is with a strong spirit. You must utterly cut the enemy down so that he does not recover his position. You must understand how to utterly cut down the enemy.

Ive read similar passages in The Art of War, Clausewitz, The USMC Maneuver Warfare Manual, etc. There's nothing style specific to that passage (and most others outside the water book) that someone knowledgeable in military science writing wouldn't understand full well.

The ground book passage regarding the analogy of the Carpenter to the Strategist is a primer on leadership and employment of personnel.

To imply that ONLY someone schooled in Musashi's sword art could possibly understand or appreciate the content if TBFR is either a lack of understanding what they are reading or arrogance on the part of someone practicing that art (only I have the understanding ********).

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[Sanke]

What..they haven't been pointed out enough?? We all get it. You and Chris (obviously associated) disagree with Brian. Got it.

This incessant demand to "READ THE THREAD!" is more than "pointing out issues"....this is some bizzare last wordsmanship game combined with an "ADMIT YOU ARE WRONG!" demand.

Its weird ...even for the interwebs.

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Yeah, they've been pointed out, and then ignored. And I wouldn't even call it a disagreement, I don't think Brain's actually addressed any of Chris's actual points or questions, just things he seems to be pulling out of nowhere. And yeah, Chris is my instructor and fellow student in other classes. I'd say it was pretty obvious, it is in my profile after all...

So yeah, it'd be good if Brain actually read the thread. Because if his replies are anything to go by, he really hasn't.

And please, for the interwebs, this is mild at best.

 

[Tgace]

Yeah, they've been pointed out, and then ignored. And I wouldn't even call it a disagreement, I don't think Brain's actually addressed any of Chris's actual points or questions, just things he seems to be pulling out of nowhere. And yeah, Chris is my instructor and fellow student in other classes. I'd say it was pretty obvious, it is in my profile after all...

So yeah, it'd be good if Brain actually read the thread. Because if his replies are anything to go by, he really hasn't.

And please, for the interwebs, this is mild at best.

I say again....

So ****ing what? Are you guys so special that you cant be ignored?

Who is Brian that his opinion is such a big offense? Who are Chris and you to demand anything? And why the incessant hijacking of the thread into a READ MY POSTS bitchfest?

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[Hyoho]

Lol well ones things for sure. I see few Musashi ideals in this thread.

 

[jks9199]

Wow...

Things seem to be getting a little hot around here. Maybe it's time to let things settle out a bit? If I it were practical, I'd send a round on the house...

 

[Tgace]

mushashi wrote in his classic "a book of five rings" that you must perceive the intention of your opponent and before he makes a move, you make a move.

he advised the following way to perceive intention of opponent:

1. becoming the opponent:

you should put yourself in opponents shoe and try to think from his point of view what he can do. if your opponent knows that you are a master of MA, he might think he may lose or he may be mentally weak.


2. arresting the shadow

you may use any advantageous rhythm to determine opponents motive and then you can find winning advantage.

3. mismatch the rhythm

you must take a rhythm that does not match that of your opponent. this is described in para like "mountain and sea change" or " knowing disintegration" etc.

from the fire scroll in the book of five rings by miyomoto mushashi

If you read most of the fire book...

http://www.cyberpathway.com/musashi/fire.htm

Is pretty obvious that much of Musashi's strategic thought was offensive in nature. He speaks often of "chasing the enemy around" and "forestalling by attacking". Even his mentions of "Treading down" the enemy and "soaking in" imply an offensive mindset.

("Soaking in" is a similar strategy to staying in infighting range against a power boxer. Or a military unit staying intermingled with an enemy to prevent their ability to maneuver or to bring area weapons to bear.)

His strategy is very heavy in imposing his will against an opponent vs "rope a dope"/wear him down defensive actions. Find the opportunity and attack!

This is not to imply that he recommend being the first to attack. He said:

This does not mean that you always attack first; but if the enemy attacks first you can lead him around. In strategy, you have effectively won when you forestall the enemy, so you must train well to attain this.

His mindset here is not "defensive" per se... even when receiving an attack his strategy is to lead the opponent to his defeat...not going "defensive".

Many sources state that Musashi was large, strong and aggressive in personality so I find it unsurprising that his philosophy would favor an offensive mindset.

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[Tames D]

Yeah, they've been pointed out, and then ignored. And I wouldn't even call it a disagreement, I don't think Brain's actually addressed any of Chris's actual points or questions, just things he seems to be pulling out of nowhere. And yeah, Chris is my instructor and fellow student in other classes. I'd say it was pretty obvious, it is in my profile after all...

So yeah, it'd be good if Brain actually read the thread. Because if his replies are anything to go by, he really hasn't.


And please, for the interwebs, this is mild at best.

I'm convinced that anything Brian "could of would of" said would still be wrong in yours and Chris's eyes. Everyone else is always wrong or mis-informed. It's getting old. Must be an Austrailian thing.

 

[Hyoho]

Musashi was around 188 cms. If anyone reads 'attack' into gorin no sho? You read it wrong. There is no attack in his waza. It's the epitome of defense using "sen". (That's not in the book). You practice, you read. You read, you practice. That is..... members of the ryu.

 

[Tgace]

Musashi was around 188 cms. If anyone reads 'attack' into gorin no sho? You read it wrong. There is no attack in his waza. It's the epitome of defense using "sen". (That's not in the book). You practice, you read. You read, you practice. That is..... members of the ryu.

I said aggressive and offensive...and stipulated that he did not mean to always attack. There is a difference.

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[Tgace]

Musashi was around 188 cms. If anyone reads 'attack' into gorin no sho? You read it wrong. There is no attack in his waza. It's the epitome of defense using "sen". (That's not in the book). You practice, you read. You read, you practice. That is..... members of the ryu.

Perhaps not the most proven source but it mirrors what I have read on better sourced works I cannot reference at the moment:

http://www.bookoffiverings.com/MiyamotoMusashi.htm

When Musashi was seven, his father, Munisai, either died or abandoned the child. As his mother had died, Ben No Suke, as Musashi was known during his childhood, was left in the care of an uncle on his mother's side, a priest. So we find Musashi an orphan during Hideyoshi's campaigns of unification, son of a samurai in a violent unhappy land. He was a boisterous youth, strong-willed and physically large for his age. Whether he was urged to pursue Kendo by his uncle, or whether his aggressive nature led him to it, we do not know, but it is recorded that he slew a man in single combat when he was just thirteen. The opponent was Arima Kigei, a samurai of the Shinto Ryu school of military arts, skilled with sword and spear. The boy threw the man to the ground, and beat him about the head with a stick when he tried to rise. Kihei died vomiting blood

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