Speed...Good or Bad?

[kaizasosei]

physical speed is only half of the 'speed' you need in the martial arts. as pointed out by mentioning rythem. it is actually, slowness or extreme controll that is the key to true 'speed'.

remember, that in the bujinkan 5th dan test, the attack is avoided from the rear at critical distance. this test is symbolic of the ability to feel danger and avoid it before or at the very exact moment the power is released and the attack begins its course. if one has experience to a certain level or believes in this phenomenon to a certain degree, it is clear that this sort of instantaneous even transcending time itslef, type of phenomena are more than just physical speed. (btw,also a big motion-avoiding a sword attack quickly-like breaking a board, it's not likely to happen slowly without extreme luck or mastery)
((shouldnt happen slowly for too long because it's a dangerous thing to be going for people with live blades..))

in an offensive sense, the speed is in all of perception to instantly analyze a situation and know where the many weaknesses of the enemy/ counterpart are and to manipulate them..not only in martial arts, in all of human communication, there is an element of interaction or communion where people observe,cross and follow one another. look down on or cower down to with questionable intention or meet on even and respectful way. where the mind goes so does the body.

j

 

[Deaf Smith]

We discussed this a bit before.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62695

Deaf

 

[naneek]

speed is nothing without timing

 

[TheOriginalName]

Recently i was introduced to a new way of practising kata - the super slow kata.

Perviously i've always done kata at something like 50% of the intended speed but this is doing it at 10% speed.

When doing it this slow no poor technique gets hidden away and your knowledge of the kata gets tested. I've actually found it harder to do that kata at thsi speed than to do it at "snap" speed.
Speed often allows those small imperfections to become hidden.

So in my humble opinion - we need to develop speed but we also need to develop technique. It is only when we have mastered technique that we can introduce speed into the equation......

I hope this makes a degree of sense.......

 

[Sukerkin]

I forget where I heard it first (possibly my Lau Gar instructor but I feel it to be even earlier than that) but the truism that applies in general to some of the above comments is "First comes 'Right', then comes 'Fast'".

 

[still learning]

Hello, Here we go with speeding? .....the right and wrong of it?

When one can think faster? ...one can prevent danger quicker!

When one moves faster? ....one can avoid quicker!

When one can strike faster? ....one can avoid missing!

When one can escape faster? ....one will live a day longer!

Going 80 miles hour in a 25 speed zone is asking for trouble....One must learn about speeding and timing!

They say the more relax you are? ....the faster you move? tenseing slows you down....

Like going to the toilet...more relax...faster. Tensing? ..creates harder movements...

Everyone knows proper speed in important at the right times.....NO one speed is answer to all situtions.....(excetions of super sonic-mega-millions miles per hour-time travel?) ...than you can go back and change to a proper speed each time....

Aloha....speed reading is good....making love...speed is NOT good...

PS: Everyone wants to find a quicker way....SPEED ...seek the right amount!

 

[bowser666]

Speed may or may not be important depending on the technique. Speed is often confused with technique by the beginner. Technique is what matters, not speed or power, because all are different.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Love the book of five rings! Being a sword art practitioner, I can relate to it very much.

Speed, most of the time results in sloppy technique. In order to do something faster, you lose some of the movement. Guys who are 'super fast' often aren't. It is the immediacy that comes from experience and mastery. This is not speed, though such a practitioner is not generally slow.

Pure, physical speed is a function of age and fitness. If your entire approach is designed around youth and speed, then when your youth is gone, what do you have?

There is a myriad of reasons why older athletes are done by their mid thirties. Lack of speed isn't usually it unless thats all that the athlete had to begin with. It is usually the accumulation of sports injuries coupled with less rapid healing that makes maintaining a competition schedule an impossiblility. Any sort of joint replacement is usually the death knell for a competative athlete. Superstar athletes who become 'uncompetative' are often still much better than the average player of any sport; they just aren't what they were and aren't as 'super' as the newest superstar that was drafted. Nobody would consider them uncompetative if they weren't compared to what they had been say four years previously.

But aging athletes who's bodies haven't fallen prey to permanent injury and can still take the rigors of competition can remain vital long after their competative prime. Such individuals often know the sport so well and can read the field to such a degree that they can continue to lead their team or perform in the ring. Generally, these are the guys and gals who transition gracefully from competator to either comentator, coach, or well remembered and still respected player, such as Larry Byrd, Arnold Palmer, or Cal Ripken Jr.

Daniel

 

[MJS]

Speed may or may not be important depending on the technique. Speed is often confused with technique by the beginner. Technique is what matters, not speed or power, because all are different.

Great point! The technique as you say really is the more important aspect here. If someone has poor footwork, then its really not going to matter how fast or hard they can hit, because if they're not setting themselves up right, they probably won't be able to generate any real power. Kinda like building the walls and roof, but no foundation.

 

[kaizasosei]

there is an element of speed that is overcommited and even hysterical.
at the level of human communication, speed can if it is physicaly projected startle people. one reason for this may be because there are many fears that it may be easy to frighten with sudden movements or suspicious movements(direction naturally also playing a crucial role).

at the right time, speed may be essential for power and effect. but if unleashed prematurely, the energy may be uncalled for, destructive or simply not 'fair' at some level.
slow movements are also sometime thought of to be graceful possibly also because of such reasons.

if one practices at ones fastest and hardest, the body is sure to get stronger...but it is hard to controll in what way it goes and if it is healthy or not in the long run. of course, technically with the right chikung excercises...
i find, slow practice is much better for visualization and refining of technique. sometimes, you also start out slow but it gets faster without having to go all out. -what exactly makes it speed anyways.- i guess, i am thinking that there is a considerable release of energy with a quick acceleration, but speed could also be gradual or concentrated



j

 

[Josh Oakley]

I do a drill with students on sparring nights where they can block as fast as they want and move as fast as they want, but they have to strike "tai chi slow". I always get a student or two that says there's no way to get a hit in that way!" then they work the drill and are amazed at the holes in both their partners and their own defense. It's my students' favorite drill now.


And yes, I DID steal it from Dune. I never said I was original.

 

[still learning]

Hello, JOSH OAKLEY.....great way to train....thanks for sharing this...!

Training in different speeds in an excellent IDEA!

Speak slow....move faster...avoiding is better than blocking...speeding in this area is good. Learn speeding!

A skill fighter may look faster....it just his adaptions to be in the right place and right time....the "flow"....of movements

In surfing...some areas have faster waves,others a little slower..yet a skill surfer...can rip any wave...and make themselves look good!

..with aging...and slower movements...still learning to look good? ....Aloha

 

[bowser666]

I do a drill with students on sparring nights where they can block as fast as they want and move as fast as they want, but they have to strike "tai chi slow". I always get a student or two that says there's no way to get a hit in that way!" then they work the drill and are amazed at the holes in both their partners and their own defense. It's my students' favorite drill now.


And yes, I DID steal it from Dune. I never said I was original.

There is nothing wrong with that. HAHA Dune rules

 

[Brother John]

I've had this discussion with many Kenpo folks, due to the fact that we often see some Kenpo guys blaze thru a technique. IMHO, I think that there needs to be a balance of both. Don't go so fast that the strikes don't have any power, but don't go so slow that you're moving like a snail.

I disagree.
Tremendous speeeeed doesn't deplete the power of a technique, velocity can make a 'so so' technique much more powerful.
BUT: Speed at the expense of form & alignment......YES, it saps the power from techniques BADLY.
there's a big difference.

Too many Kenpoists sacrifice form/alignment and precision for speed, and they end up losing any positive effect!!
I think in THIS we are in agreement.

Speed is only ONE ingredient in a much bigger whole, if you take it out of context....it's a detriment, not a bonus. BUT if you have those other factors IN PLACE and aren't skimping on them, then loads of speed is nothing but GOOD.

Your Brother
John

Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

There is nothing wrong with that. HAHA Dune rules

BEST series of books I've EVER read! (((and I read a LOT)))


Your Brother (with "Blue within Blue" eyes)
John




The Spice must FLOW.......

 

[MJS]

I disagree.
Tremendous speeeeed doesn't deplete the power of a technique, velocity can make a 'so so' technique much more powerful.
BUT: Speed at the expense of form & alignment......YES, it saps the power from techniques BADLY.
there's a big difference.

Too many Kenpoists sacrifice form/alignment and precision for speed, and they end up losing any positive effect!!
I think in THIS we are in agreement.

Speed is only ONE ingredient in a much bigger whole, if you take it out of context....it's a detriment, not a bonus. BUT if you have those other factors IN PLACE and aren't skimping on them, then loads of speed is nothing but GOOD.

Your Brother
John

Your Brother
John

Yes, we are agreeing more than it may seem on the surface. Also see this post that I made in this thread.

Mike

 

[shihansmurf]

In the Army we say "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast".

I think that to focus on speed to the exclusivity of developing your other attributes is short sighted and more than a bit counter-productive. Having good technique than you can execute well is superior to and ultimately leads having fast technique.

Slow down, you'll get faster

Mark

 

[Hawke]

I heard another saying...

go slow to be fast. Let the muscles learn the movement until it becomes instinctive (muscle memory).

Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny mentioned how he shadow boxed with Muhammad Ali in the mid 80s. Ali slowly shuffled around, but when he was in the zone he became lightning quick.

I heard from others about different speeds. Mental Speed, let your mind figure things out. Physical Speed, the body's ability to move. Speed of the senses (sight, auditory, kinesthetic) to trigger a response.

Force = Mass x Acceleration. Speed has power behind it, assuming it lands with accuracy.

 

[Shicomm]

Even if the world is breaking a speedrecord every day you can move calm

I guess i would be nice to be skilled to do certain things at high speed but i've seen what slowing down and taking the time to 'get' things can do.
Overall i would go for the "nice and easy" lane instead of the "low flying zone"

 

[Flying Crane]

Force = Mass x Acceleration. Speed has power behind it, assuming it lands with accuracy.

You are correct, with the caveat that straight physics does not translate perfectly when put into the context of performance of the human body. It is tempting to simplify it into a physics equation and call it "perfect", but it isn't. There are too many other factors that affect how the body performs, and you cannot make such a straight forward application of physics in this way. I believe it is a misapplication of the science.