Minor venting session

[Andy Moynihan]

Not sure if this is the right forum, feel free to move it if not. This is not an area I frequent for obvious reasons, so any error was mine.

Here's the thing.

I don't know how to proceed with this without making it seem like I'm somehow anti-religion, which I'm not ,necessarily( I have no problem with the concept of a higher power or an order in the universe, but I'm fed the **** up with organized religions based upon my experiences of what their misuse does to people).


So there's this coworker of mine who, randomly, all of a sudden appears to have drunk the Kool Aid, and over the last few weeks has become very irritatingly self righteous, like everyone does who has so imbibed.

This person, who I've worked with for almost a year and a half now, all of a sudden asks me or others if we "go to church" and if not, asks either why, or makes some statement that how do we know ( insert snippet of random unrelated conversation bit seized upon to make whatever point) is true, insisting that we shouldn't complain about ( insert thing complained about here however trivial or irrelevant) because it's all god's plan and it's all so much easier when you put your life in his hands and all of this.

I have tried very hard, over these few weeks to diplomatically get the message across that I do not discuss religion, period, full stop, end of story, and that I do not appreciate being preached to. When asked, "Not religious, Andy?" I answered that my beliefs were personal. I also brought it up in conversation with others that I was fed the **** up with organized religion--in those words. There could be no mistaking how I felt. It didn't matter.

It was quiet for awhile after that and I thought I'd gotten my point across. Apparently not.

This afternoon at break, all of a sudden she's starting up about this audio book she's listening to, and I'm bracing myself for what I suspect is coming.

Apparently my instincts were correct as it's an audiobook about Creationists and Evolutionists arguing and how it's really awesome and like that.

I don't get angry( well I do, but I don't throw a tantrum), I don't yell, but nonetheless my patience is at its end for this sort of thing. I'm not into hurting folks' feelings as a rule but it's time to shut this down.

She begins into this thing about how "The ones from Creation, who think Evolution is wrong...." and I give her, deadpan, "They're BOTH a pack of ****in' idiots".

( Not necessarily true, and not strictly what I believe--I have met people of strong Christian faith who were perfectly sound, adjusted members of society, and being of a natural mentality better suited to logic and science than superstition and faith, it is more easy for me to accept the theory of evolution than that of creation, but I am sold on neither as being absolute truth. I'm not one of those who likes the taste of Kool Aid. But the point is that more diplomatic attempts to resolve this have failed, as they so often do with those who have so imbibed, and if I am to have any end to this I must strike the heart).

It appears to have worked. She halts in midsentence, begins another, makes the motions of "never mind" and I finish with "This is the wrong subject to talk about with me, I'm sorry". and on her way out the break room she says what I think was "I guess it is", and leaves.

I guess I'm just mad at this cultish atmosphere that some, not all, types of religion engender that not only poison people's minds like this but make it so you can't even politely tell them to cut the **** because noncommittal answers or evasions concerning your beliefs seems to function as a clarion call that now they have to "save" you, whatever the hell that means.

I think it is sad, because this person is not a bad person, and was someone I liked before she started talking crazy and I hate to see her going down a path that has damaged some of my friends so badly that one , even years later STILL needs medication for psych problems directly related to religion-based mental abuse from his family.

Pisses me off.

Thanks for listening.

 

[Thesemindz]

You know man, if the first time she'd come to you and said, "do you know god?" You'd said,

SHUT UP *****! I HATE YOU AND YOUR GOD! DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE!!!

I'd probably have said you went a little far in your objection. But it sounds like here, you tried diplomacy, you tried directness, you even tried curtness. It was only after all that failed that you had to get confrontational.

Some people can't take a hint. Sometimes the only way to get someone to listen is to get louder than they are. It's unfortunate, and not how I prefer to converse, but sometimes it is what it is.

Too bad she can't respect your position. Too bad you may have lost a friendly coworker over it. I can understand her passion when learning about a new idea. It's too bad she can't understand your disinterest.


-Rob

 

[Andy Moynihan]

You know man, if the first time she'd come to you and said, "do you know god?" You'd said,

SHUT UP *****! I HATE YOU AND YOUR GOD! DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE!!!

I'd probably have said you went a little far in your objection. But it sounds like here, you tried diplomacy, you tried directness, you even tried curtness. It was only after all that failed that you had to get confrontational.

Some people can't take a hint. Sometimes the only way to get someone to listen is to get louder than they are. It's unfortunate, and not how I prefer to converse, but sometimes it is what it is.

Too bad she can't respect your position. Too bad you may have lost a friendly coworker over it. I can understand her passion when learning about a new idea. It's too bad she can't understand your disinterest.


-Rob

The hell of it is--I know what it is to believe in something strongly enough that it hurts when people don't. When I chose which side of the 2nd Amendment issue I would be on, and later did become a firearms instructor, i KNEW--going in, from the outset--that no matter how right I thought I was, or knew I was, or whatever---that there WOULD be those to whom none of my facts would matter, that there would be some who would not hear me no matter what. I accepted that.

Granted, it's not the same comparison as my position can be backed up with more hard evidence than many religious beliefs, and I have no lofty goals of saving peoples' souls, I'll be content with helping them save their lives--but the point is I'm not a stranger to feeling persecuted and that makes this whole mess just that much messier.

 

[Steve]

I know you didn't really ask for help or opinions and are just venting... but I'm a dude and it's our job to try and fix things. The following is based upon my own experience with labor relations and my own opinions. I don't know your company's LR policy or anything like that, so take this for what it is (and isn't).

If this is happening at work, you likely have recourse. Typically, religious actions like prayer and general conversation is fine as long as it isn't offending anyone. The point that it does, the person should stop and if they don't stop, they can be made to stop.

So, if you've been polite but clear with her, if she doesn't stop, I'd level with her. Just tell her that you are beginning to feel harrassed because of your own religious beliefs (that's a powerful word) and that if she continues you'll bring it up with your supervisor. While that might not help you two get along, if you're this frustrated friendship might not be an issue.

At that point, your supervisor should squelch it, making it a performance issue if she continues. If that doesn't work (either your supervisor sucks or whatever) you might have grounds for more formal action.

Ultimately, these things are best kept informal and dealt with at the lowest possible level. I would recommend involving your supervisor only if necessary, as this can quickly snowball into a bunch of stuff that is tedious and ugly.

Good luck.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I just let it go these days. I'm too old to fight it. The glazed-eye, slack-jawed crowd are not capable of 'getting it' anyway.

The Jesus Smack-Down. Like taxes, it isn't going away anytime soon.

I'm a professing Christian. I leave it at that. Don't preach at me, I won't preach at you, amen and so mote it be.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Just tell her that you are beginning to feel harrassed because of your own religious beliefs (that's a powerful word) and that if she continues you'll bring it up with your supervisor.

Years ago, when I was still a Wiccan, I worked in law enforcement. I started getting religious stickers put on my car in the parking lot at night. It was a secure underground lot, you had to have a police ID to get in. I ignored them. Then I started getting them stuffed in my mailbox cubby at work. I let my coworkers know it wasn't funny and I didn't appreciate it. They told me to forget it, it was just a joke - and it continued. I finally complained to the Chief. He told me he wasn't sure that being Wiccan was legal.

That was clearly as far as it was going to go unless I wanted to file suit. I didn't, so I quit complaining. They never stopped trying to 'convert' me back to Christianity. I guess they'd be thrilled to know I finally came back on my own.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I just let it go these days. I'm too old to fight it. The glazed-eye, slack-jawed crowd are not capable of 'getting it' anyway.

The Jesus Smack-Down. Like taxes, it isn't going away anytime soon.

I'm a professing Christian. I leave it at that. Don't preach at me, I won't preach at you, amen and so mote it be.

You know I even tried humor-- " I don't bring my lunch to your church and eat it, don't preach on my lunch break".

 

[Sukerkin]

Andy and I walk matched paths on this issue.

I was brought up so strictly 'religious' that my 'rebellion' was equally stong, such that, if I'm honest with myself, if the mythical invisble sky-god himself came calling, I'd take him to task for the murder,torture and misery that belief in him has caused.

People can take whatever poppicock they desire to their hearts as long as it harms noone else and they don't pester me with it.

What happens when you don't stamp on this kind of extremism has been made evident throughout history and is currently being manipulated again for political ends with the present globally reverberating troubles in the heart of Islam (mind you, it makes a change for it not to be Christians causing a ruckus).

 

[Steve]

Years ago, when I was still a Wiccan, I worked in law enforcement. I started getting religious stickers put on my car in the parking lot at night. It was a secure underground lot, you had to have a police ID to get in. I ignored them. Then I started getting them stuffed in my mailbox cubby at work. I let my coworkers know it wasn't funny and I didn't appreciate it. They told me to forget it, it was just a joke - and it continued. I finally complained to the Chief. He told me he wasn't sure that being Wiccan was legal.

That was clearly as far as it was going to go unless I wanted to file suit. I didn't, so I quit complaining. They never stopped trying to 'convert' me back to Christianity. I guess they'd be thrilled to know I finally came back on my own.

And that's the crux of it. While you would have been well within your rights to file a grievance (depending upon your contract), that's opening a big can of worms. You have to decide whether that's a road you want to travel. Your supervisor sucked, though. Any leader/manager worth his salt would've put that crap to bed fast.

 

[Tez3]

The problem with putting this type of person down is that they then regard you as a G-d sent challenge and get on at you even more! We had such a person visited on us for a little while, always a mistake when there's squaddies around. It was a woman too, I was on access control duty with a male soldier at the time when she came up to us ( there was a big peace demo so we were out in force...) she went on and on about Jseus loving us, forgiveness, all the usual things. The soldier didn't say a word until she stopped then he looked at her totally straight faced, not a smile and said I suppose a blowjobs out of the question then love? I cracked up, couldn't help it, she looked so offended as she stomped off.

 

[Nolerama]

You know I even tried humor-- " I don't bring my lunch to your church and eat it, don't preach on my lunch break".

HA! I'm going to use that one.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I know you didn't really ask for help or opinions and are just venting... but I'm a dude and it's our job to try and fix things. The following is based upon my own experience with labor relations and my own opinions. I don't know your company's LR policy or anything like that, so take this for what it is (and isn't).

If this is happening at work, you likely have recourse. Typically, religious actions like prayer and general conversation is fine as long as it isn't offending anyone. The point that it does, the person should stop and if they don't stop, they can be made to stop.

So, if you've been polite but clear with her, if she doesn't stop, I'd level with her. Just tell her that you are beginning to feel harrassed because of your own religious beliefs (that's a powerful word) and that if she continues you'll bring it up with your supervisor. While that might not help you two get along, if you're this frustrated friendship might not be an issue.

At that point, your supervisor should squelch it, making it a performance issue if she continues. If that doesn't work (either your supervisor sucks or whatever) you might have grounds for more formal action.

Ultimately, these things are best kept informal and dealt with at the lowest possible level. I would recommend involving your supervisor only if necessary, as this can quickly snowball into a bunch of stuff that is tedious and ugly.

Good luck.

I do not think it will get that far. I am not the only one who's had enough.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

The problem with putting this type of person down is that they then regard you as a G-d sent challenge and get on at you even more! We had such a person visited on us for a little while, always a mistake when there's squaddies around. It was a woman too, I was on access control duty with a male soldier at the time when she came up to us ( there was a big peace demo so we were out in force...) she went on and on about Jseus loving us, forgiveness, all the usual things. The soldier didn't say a word until she stopped then he looked at her totally straight faced, not a smile and said I suppose a blowjobs out of the question then love? I cracked up, couldn't help it, she looked so offended as she stomped off.

I so needed that laugh right now *HUG*

I won't use that in this specific situation being work related and all, but there will be others...oh yes....there will be others....

 

[Rich Parsons]

Not sure if this is the right forum, feel free to move it if not. This is not an area I frequent for obvious reasons, so any error was mine.

Here's the thing.

I don't know how to proceed with this without making it seem like I'm somehow anti-religion, which I'm not ,necessarily( I have no problem with the concept of a higher power or an order in the universe, but I'm fed the **** up with organized religions based upon my experiences of what their misuse does to people).


So there's this coworker of mine who, randomly, all of a sudden appears to have drunk the Kool Aid, and over the last few weeks has become very irritatingly self righteous, like everyone does who has so imbibed.

This person, who I've worked with for almost a year and a half now, all of a sudden asks me or others if we "go to church" and if not, asks either why, or makes some statement that how do we know ( insert snippet of random unrelated conversation bit seized upon to make whatever point) is true, insisting that we shouldn't complain about ( insert thing complained about here however trivial or irrelevant) because it's all god's plan and it's all so much easier when you put your life in his hands and all of this.

I have tried very hard, over these few weeks to diplomatically get the message across that I do not discuss religion, period, full stop, end of story, and that I do not appreciate being preached to. When asked, "Not religious, Andy?" I answered that my beliefs were personal. I also brought it up in conversation with others that I was fed the **** up with organized religion--in those words. There could be no mistaking how I felt. It didn't matter.

It was quiet for awhile after that and I thought I'd gotten my point across. Apparently not.

This afternoon at break, all of a sudden she's starting up about this audio book she's listening to, and I'm bracing myself for what I suspect is coming.

Apparently my instincts were correct as it's an audiobook about Creationists and Evolutionists arguing and how it's really awesome and like that.

I don't get angry( well I do, but I don't throw a tantrum), I don't yell, but nonetheless my patience is at its end for this sort of thing. I'm not into hurting folks' feelings as a rule but it's time to shut this down.

She begins into this thing about how "The ones from Creation, who think Evolution is wrong...." and I give her, deadpan, "They're BOTH a pack of ****in' idiots".

( Not necessarily true, and not strictly what I believe--I have met people of strong Christian faith who were perfectly sound, adjusted members of society, and being of a natural mentality better suited to logic and science than superstition and faith, it is more easy for me to accept the theory of evolution than that of creation, but I am sold on neither as being absolute truth. I'm not one of those who likes the taste of Kool Aid. But the point is that more diplomatic attempts to resolve this have failed, as they so often do with those who have so imbibed, and if I am to have any end to this I must strike the heart).

It appears to have worked. She halts in midsentence, begins another, makes the motions of "never mind" and I finish with "This is the wrong subject to talk about with me, I'm sorry". and on her way out the break room she says what I think was "I guess it is", and leaves.

I guess I'm just mad at this cultish atmosphere that some, not all, types of religion engender that not only poison people's minds like this but make it so you can't even politely tell them to cut the **** because noncommittal answers or evasions concerning your beliefs seems to function as a clarion call that now they have to "save" you, whatever the hell that means.

I think it is sad, because this person is not a bad person, and was someone I liked before she started talking crazy and I hate to see her going down a path that has damaged some of my friends so badly that one , even years later STILL needs medication for psych problems directly related to religion-based mental abuse from his family.

Pisses me off.

Thanks for listening.

I ask these types if they would like to meet and talk this over a glass of wine or beer with an ex-girlfriend who is a Minister and Naval Chaplain. I also ask if I could bring in some other friends who are religious and have lots of points of their own they would like to make. Usually I get the dumb look of "You have friends" No actually it is "You have friends who are religious a that are members of the clergy". I then explain that I would like to invite a Protestant and a Catholic and a Muslim and a person of the Jewish heritage and faith. I know them all and I can sit down with them and discuss philosophy and or religion with no problems. As they all respect others and their individual belief system even if their system is no belief or other. This usually confuses them and the think I am crazy to be able to do this.

If this does not work, I then ask them a simple "Yes No" question. And it must be answered Yes or No. No qualifications. "Do you believe?" I have found that those with an open mind or enough intelligence see the question and answer either Yes or No. For those that cannot understand the reason for the question and insist upon educating me and qualifying their answer, I just interrupt them and ask the question over and over. The longest anyone ever held out without either getting it or leaving and never discussing religion with me again was an hour. The "witness" ran out the door when my college roommates came home. As I would not let him finish a sentence until he answered just yes or no.

 

[Sukerkin]

That's a hard 'Occams' Razor' to apply, Rich. I admire you for its purity.

I don't wish to unbalance the thread, so this can be ignored if necessary ... but I think it's an interesting question to ask.

How would you (or anyone else for that matter) deal with someone like me?

I do not believe that there is a God and reject a good deal of what organised religions do because it promulgates what I would consider to be 'Evil'.

However, I have no proof, other than the expanse and complexity of the Universe, that I am right with regard to the non-existence of God and would be quite willing to admit to my mistake if God was ever to show up (just before he smote me unto ruin if you concur with most religious texts).

So I both do not believe but am also open to be proved 'wrong' (altho' even then I would contest that no God has any more right to direct my steps, without my requesting it, than my father does) i.e. my answer to the direct question of "Do you believe" is simultaneously 'yes' and 'no'.

 

[Tez3]

That's a hard 'Occams' Razor' to apply, Rich. I admire you for its purity.

I don't wish to unbalance the thread, so this can be ignored if necessary ... but I think it's an interesting question to ask.

How would you (or anyone else for that matter) deal with someone like me?

I do not believe that there is a God and reject a good deal of what organised religions do because it promulgates what I would consider to be 'Evil'.

However, I have no proof, other than the expanse and complexity of the Universe, that I am right with regard to the non-existence of God and would be quite willing to admit to my mistake if God was ever to show up (just before he smote me unto ruin if you concur with most religious texts).

So I both do not believe but am also open to be proved 'wrong' (altho' even then I would contest that no God has any more right to direct my steps, without my requesting it, than my father does) i.e. my answer to the direct question of "Do you believe" is simultaneously 'yes' and 'no'.

I'll quote as always from a Rabbi, this one is Rabbi Moshe Leib.

"There is no quality and there is no power of man that was created to no purpose. And even base and corrupt qualities can be uplifted to serve G-d. When, for example, haughty self assurance is uplifted it changes into a high assurance in the ways of G-d. But to what end can denial of G-d have been created? this too can be uplifted though deeds of charity. For if someone comes to you and asks your help, you shall not turn him off with pious words, saying 'Have faith and take your troubles to G-d' . You shall act as if there were no G-d, as if there were only one person in all the world who could help this man -only yourself'

Your beliefs or non beliefs are yours and none of our business but you are a fellow man to whom respect and help if needed, is to be given, freely and willingly with no strings attached.

 

[Andrew Green]

I was brought up so strictly 'religious' that my 'rebellion' was equally stong, such that, if I'm honest with myself, if the mythical invisble sky-god himself came calling, I'd take him to task for the murder,torture and misery that belief in him has caused.

forget the stuff caused by belief in him, if the God of the bible exists, I want answers for the massive crimes committed by him personally. Multiple genocides, killing of children, plagues, floods, demanding sacrifice, etc.

The God of the bible was one nasty dude.

 

[thardey]

To the OP:
Often with these types of fanatics, I start talking with them, and turn the conversation to the homeless people I know -- the ones who say they prefer the lifestyle to a regular housing situation, who smell of alchohol and smoke, and I casually mention that God is more real to them than to most people who spend their lives in church.

Invariably, these people are threatened by that sort of talk, and assume they qualify as the "church" people I'm talking about. They ususally leave me alone after that.

As for Sukerkin's and Andrew's points -- sure, God may be unfair and unjust -- but that does't mean he/she/it doesn't exist. And I believe there's plenty of examples from the saints (particularly of the old testament) who felt the same way at times, and openly said it to God, and recorded it for later. Read most of the Psalms -- they start as complaints about what God is doing wrong (and most of those from David "A man after God's own heart"). Same with Job, who was described as "being righteous" while moaning about how unjust and unfair God is. Ditto for Elijah, and several other prophets.

This idea that you have to unquestionably follow God without complaint, painting a fake smile on your face, and pretending to be perfect, while having complete trust in anything handed down from "on high" was perpetuated by those who would serve the Kool-aid, to keep you from questioning your spiritual leaders. Unquestioning people are easier to lead. But that idea is nowhere in the Bible -- in fact, open challenges are encouraged, as long as they are done with respect.

Even Jacob was renamed "Israel" which can mean "fights with God" after an all-night wresting mach with an angel (God incarnate?). And God was pleased with that!

 

[Aikicomp]

To the OP, I would tell her I do not discuss religion and if she brings it up to you again just ignore her. Try to understand that just by "being" Christians no matter what variety (Catholic or Protestant) we are all called by Christ to be witnesses to our Faith. Some people are more enthusiastic than others, especially one's newly introduced into the Faith.

Being Catholic myself I do not force my Faith on anyone if it comes up in discussion (It has in several occasions because of teaching Ju-Jitsu) I try to explain to the best of my ability why I believe what I believe (As taught by the Magisterium and the Catechism) and try to dispell the ignorance and misunderstanding about Catholicism and Christianity in general. I will not argue or fight with them, I will just present it the best way I can with love and understanding. If they attack me or get argumenative I thank them for their time and input and end it. Jesus never beat anyone over the head (OK, except for that time in the Temple. LOL) or tried to ram it down people's throats. He just spoke the truth, if people listened they listened if not...not.

Michael

 

[Tez3]

forget the stuff caused by belief in him, if the God of the bible exists, I want answers for the massive crimes committed by him personally. Multiple genocides, killing of children, plagues, floods, demanding sacrifice, etc.

The God of the bible was one nasty dude.

Thing was though, the god of the Bible was the god of the Israelites nobody elses, he wasn't forced on anyone until the Christians came along! No other religion, not even Islam, has demanded that people convert to what they believe. No other religion has sent out so many missionaries, ruined entire cultures, massacred so many people as Christianity. The Crusades still reverbarate in the Middle East and has repercussions even now. Islam has never forgotten them and we reap what was sown then,now.

I don't know how religion comes up in a martial arts class tbh, in all the years I've been practising it never has.