Is Birth/Genetics Random? What do you think?

[Makalakumu]

I dunno what it says about that, but what does it say about my alcoholic father who left his children hungry and penniless for weeks at a time? Are you saying because he was born that way, he couldn't be held responsible?

It means that he didn't mean to hurt you. It means that some things are beyond the human ability to control right now. It means that you have to just accept that and move on. Maybe even find it in your heart to love what you have.

I grew up with a self medicating mentally ill father. My grandfather taught me things that he did in order to survive the Depression because I was the oldest.

Ultimately, it means we cannot totally hate them and must learn to seek a little forgiveness.

We're humans, after all, the brightest and best that could be randomly come up with.

How do you know? In our little corner of this universe it seems like an incredible conceit to assume that WE are the brightest and best.

Please allow me to put it into perspective...

Pale Blue Dot.

 

[Ray]

It means that he didn't mean to hurt you.

It means that some things are beyond the human ability to control right now. It means that you have to just accept that and move on. Maybe even find it in your heart to love what you have.

You don't know what he meant and what he didn't. But my real point is highlighted by your suggestions to me to get over it, we do have some control over our actions and our lives. And we have some responsibility for what we do.

Ultimately, it means we cannot totally hate them and must learn to seek a little forgiveness.

I agree, in fact your statement closely echos my beliefs.

How do you know? In our little corner of this universe it seems like an incredible conceit to assume that WE are the brightest and best.

There may be life elsewhere. Religiously I believe that there is; scientifically I believe that it most probable but unproven.

As to whether there is "Life that is brighter and better than us" Religiously I believe that there is; scientifically, it may be possible.

 

[Empty Hands]

Are you saying because he was born that way, he couldn't be held responsible?

By an eternity of punishment with extreme agony? Literally an infinity of pain? No. Not and call it justice anyways.

You may also be interested to know that alcoholism does have a definite genetic component.

 

[Ray]

By an eternity of punishment with extreme agony? Literally an infinity of pain? No. Not and call it justice anyways.

The average adult human is capable of making choices and being responsible for them. I never suggested an eternal punishment with extreme agony...where did you get the idea to put it in a post referencing what I said when I said nothing, nor implied, of the sort? And what does eternal punishment have to do with Birth/Genetics and the randomness?

You may also be interested to know that alcoholism does have a definite genetic component.

I already know that it might. I don't find it too interesting.

 

[Empty Hands]

I never suggested an eternal punishment with extreme agony...where did you get the idea to put it in a post referencing what I said when I said nothing, nor implied, of the sort?

My post that you quoted and responded to was about how notions of divine justice can be reconciled with notions of predestination or predisposition. If instead you wanted to talk about general "responsibility" or how human institutions should deal with these concepts, then you should have made that clear. As it was, I could only assume you were addressing the portion of my post that you quoted.

And what does eternal punishment have to do with Birth/Genetics and the randomness?

Most theories of divine justice, in which eternal punishment features heavily, posit that humans have free will and thus responsibility for their actions. If we have no control over our actions, how could we be held accountable for them by a divine being? Indeed, a divine being that created us without free will (It's his fault!). That is why, for instance, Christian fundamentalists insist that being gay is a choice. If being gay is inborn, then their entire concept of divine justice is flawed by its own tenets.

I already know that it might. I don't find it too interesting.

Yeah, I figured.

 

[Makalakumu]

You don't know what he meant and what he didn't.

Please forgive me for being too presumptive, Ray. I had a good day with my Dad yesterday and I think I was responding more to myself then anyone else.

 

[Ray]

My post that you quoted and responded to was about how notions of divine justice can be reconciled with notions of predestination or predisposition. If instead you wanted to talk about general "responsibility" or how human institutions should deal with these concepts, then you should have made that clear. As it was, I could only assume you were addressing the portion of my post that you quoted.

Hence my question: "Are you saying because he was born that way, he couldn't be held responsible?" which you may not have noticed...it might have been a request for a clarification of what you meant.

Most theories of divine justice, in which eternal punishment features heavily, posit that humans have free will and thus responsibility for their actions. If we have no control over our actions, how could we be held accountable for them by a divine being? Indeed, a divine being that created us without free will (It's his fault!). That is why, for instance, Christian fundamentalists insist that being gay is a choice. If being gay is inborn, then their entire concept of divine justice is flawed by its own tenets.

Perhaps "most theories of divine justice" are as you say. I think there was a thread on "free will" already. I believe normal adults are responsible for a large majority of their actions. Your concept of "most theories of divine justice" doesn't really fit into my "theory of divine justice."

Yeah, I figured.

And that means, what? That because I have little interest in the genetic predispostion that may or may not exist in certain people you should be sarcastic?

 

[Ray]

Please forgive me for being too presumptive, Ray. I had a good day with my Dad yesterday and I think I was responding more to myself then anyone else.

Thank you for sharing that with me. I'm happy when people have good days with their parents.

You don't need to be forgiven by me, you didn't offend me. I understand you were debating and I was too. My father passed away last week and I got over his problems a long time ago...I hope to get over my own problems some day.

 

[Empty Hands]

Hence my question: "Are you saying because he was born that way, he couldn't be held responsible?" which you may not have noticed...it might have been a request for a clarification of what you meant.

No, I noticed. I fit it into my ongoing discussion of divine justice. I don't think God(s) could inflict their notions of punishment on your father and call it justice, but that doesn't mean that human society should not punish such people. However, punishment and responsibility should be leavened with understanding that we don't really have full and unfettered control over all we do. The psychotically insane would be a good if extreme example - such people are not sent to jail for crimes they commit, but to treatment at a hospital

Your concept of "most theories of divine justice" doesn't really fit into my "theory of divine justice."

Well then, what is your theory of divine justice? Does it involve infinite punishment for finite transgressions as the Christian tradition would have it?

And that means, what? That because I have little interest in the genetic predispostion that may or may not exist in certain people you should be sarcastic?

No, I wasn't being sarcastic. It was pretty clear to me from your initial response that you are carrying around a lot of pain from the actions of your father, and thus wouldn't be much interested in anything that would have the appearance of exculpation for your father's actions.

 

[Ray]

Well then, what is your theory of divine justice? Does it involve infinite punishment for finite transgressions as the Christian tradition would have it?

Which "Christian Tradition" are you referring to specifically.

What is infinite punishment? Infinite length of time, infinite pain? I'm not sure what infinity is. However I know this much: If I draw a geometric ray (or am lucky enough to come across one in actual experience) at the end which has the "starting" point is finite; if I travel to the other end of the ray it is infinitely far from the "starting point." Had I not known better, I might have thought that the entire ray was infinite.

Why ask what my "theory" of divine justice is? I believe in the "law of justice" and the "law of mercy." I believe that we will be judged according to the light and knowledge we have received.

No, I wasn't being sarcastic. It was pretty clear to me from your initial response that you are carrying around a lot of pain from the actions of your father, and thus wouldn't be much interested in anything that would have the appearance of exculpation for your father's actions.

You are very mistaken; I carry no pain from my fathers action.

If you hold fast to your beliefs that we have no free will then there is nothing that can be considered exculpatory since their is no guilt and there is no fault.

If I hold fast to my belief that God said "I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men" then there is no need for exculpation because I must forgive.

I only bring up my father's malady and the effects it may have had on me, my three siblings and my mother to see if you had a reasonably logical response. But I didn't see that; I see an attempt at long-distance amateur pschchoanalysis ("It was pretty clear to me from your initial response that you are carrying around a lot of pain from the actions of your father..." I was expecting your continuation to be "let's explore that a bit more..." or "can you tell me how you felt then...")

Kind of like your "fitting" the words of others to fit your own world-view.

 

[Empty Hands]

Which "Christian Tradition" are you referring to specifically.

The evangelical/fundamentalist tradition for one - from "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" until today. There are traditions such as U/U which do not hold with the existence of hell, but they are in the minority, at least in America.
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=359

What is infinite punishment? Infinite length of time, infinite pain?

The infinity that most Christians seem to be referring to is infinite time, not infinite pain. However, even finite pain for an infinite period would be pretty much indistinguishable from infinite pain.

I'm not sure what infinity is.

It has a well-established mathematical definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity#Mathematical_infinity

However I know this much: If I draw a geometric ray (or am lucky enough to come across one in actual experience) at the end which has the "starting" point is finite; if I travel to the other end of the ray it is infinitely far from the "starting point." Had I not known better, I might have thought that the entire ray was infinite.

I am not sure what this means or has to do with our conversation, but the entire ray would be infinite.

Why ask what my "theory" of divine justice is?

Because you said the theories I was talking about were not your theory.

I believe in the "law of justice" and the "law of mercy." I believe that we will be judged according to the light and knowledge we have received.

I am not sure what this means. Does your concept of judgment extend to hell or infinite punishment? Even if not, as shown by the poll above, 70% of Americans do believe in this type of judgment. Thus, my comments about "most theories of divine justice" is an accurate one by the numbers.

You are very mistaken; I carry no pain from my fathers action.

I am glad to hear it. I am however now at a loss about why you would quiz me on the responsibility your father has for his actions when I was discussing the concept of God judging sinners with an infinite punishment considering the inborn tendencies science tells us we have. As I said before, if you wanted to discuss something else like what human societies should do with your father, you should have said so.

If you hold fast to your beliefs that we have no free will then there is nothing that can be considered exculpatory since their is no guilt and there is no fault.

I wouldn't say we had no free will. I would say however that we have a lot less control over our actions and destinies than most people are comfortable believing.

For that matter, if you do hold with free will, how do you reconcile an omniscient God who knows the future with the existence of free will? Both cannot be true.

I only bring up my father's malady and the effects it may have had on me, my three siblings and my mother to see if you had a reasonably logical response. But I didn't see that; I see an attempt at long-distance amateur pschchoanalysis ("It was pretty clear to me from your initial response that you are carrying around a lot of pain from the actions of your father..." I was expecting your continuation to be "let's explore that a bit more..." or "can you tell me how you felt then...")

A logical response to what? I was discussing divine punishment - those were the very words you quoted when you made your comments about your father. How else am I supposed to interpret your comments? My response was perfectly logical, and did not involve
"shoehorning" your comments into my beliefs. The amateur psychoanalysis came later - for which I apologize.

If I say "The death penalty is a bad idea." and you say "Well, what about my brother who killed 36 people?" shouldn't I assume your comments are actually about the death penalty and not something else?

Kind of like your "fitting" the words of others to fit your own world-view.

This is absolute nonsense, as I have explained above. This sort of response, an inability to appreciate what I am saying, is what led me to believe that your experiences with your father had colored your response to me.

 

[Ray]

The infinity that most Christians seem to be referring to is infinite time, not infinite pain. However, even finite pain for an infinite period would be pretty much indistinguishable from infinite pain.

I think that's probably a fair conclusion.

It has a well-established mathematical definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity#Mathematical_infinity

I am not sure what this means or has to do with our conversation, but the entire ray would be infinite.

It was only to make you think about infinity. Surely if you stood at the point where the ray began, wouldn't you conclude that it was not infinite. I'm really trying to understand what you mean by infinite punishment, not what wikipedia editors or most Christians mean.

I am not sure what this means. Does your concept of judgment extend to hell or infinite punishment? Even if not, as shown by the poll above, 70% of Americans do believe in this type of judgment. Thus, my comments about "most theories of divine justice" is an accurate one by the numbers.

Really, I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "infinite punishment." I looked at the link to the poll and I don't see anything about "infinite punishment."

What is "Justice?" Is it "the maintenance and administration of merited rewards and punishments" as one on-line dictionary says? If so then how does someone who absolutely cannot control themselves merit either a punishment or a reward for an action? And if someone absolutely cannot control themselves, why would you think that "divine" justice would merit a reward or a punishment?

What is "Mercy?" Is it "compassion or forebearance shown esp to an offender"?

My belief that a person will be judged according to the light and knowledge received means, for example, that an 6-year-old who steals would necessarily be held to the same standard as a 30-year-old who steals.

I am glad to hear it. I am however now at a loss about why you would quiz me on the responsibility your father has for his actions when I was discussing the concept of God judging sinners with an infinite punishment considering the inborn tendencies science tells us we have. As I said before, if you wanted to discuss something else like what human societies should do with your father, you should have said so.

Again, it was to make you think but I failed..

To me, your comment sounded like people who have a genetic pre-dispostion {to deviate from the norm} should not be held accountable for their actions. Of course, not everyone is "legally" responsible for their actions, but if they deviate far enough from the norm then they are still segregated from the rest society.

For that matter, if you do hold with free will, how do you reconcile an omniscient God who knows the future with the existence of free will? Both cannot be true.

On what grounds? Are you saying that the ability to predict something with 100% accuracy negates free will?

If you have children you will find times when you absolutely know what will result from a course of action they are planning to take. You will counsel them against the action, but you will let them make their choice anyway (age appropriate of course) and they may learn and grow.

A logical response to what? I was discussing divine punishment - those were the very words you quoted when you made your comments about your father. How else am I supposed to interpret your comments? My response was perfectly logical, and did not involve
"shoehorning" your comments into my beliefs. The amateur psychoanalysis came later - for which I apologize.

If you believe that God should not hold my father responsible for the actions he took as an alcoholic because my father had a genetic pre-dispostion to become an alcoholic, then should I or society also not hold him responsible?

If I say "The death penalty is a bad idea." and you say "Well, what about my brother who killed 36 people?" shouldn't I assume your comments are actually about the death penalty and not something else?

You're right there. I didn't explicitly refer to divine justice, I was really interested in your ideas about responsibility and accountability (whether God or Man should hold us accountable or responsible).

 

[Empty Hands]

Surely if you stood at the point where the ray began, wouldn't you conclude that it was not infinite.

Assuming you had the ability to see to the end of the ray (i.e. it didn't end just over your horizon) you would conclude it was infinite if it never stopped. In a similar manner, one could conclude that the universe is/will be infinite in size or duration even though the universe had a discrete beginning in both time and space.

I'm really trying to understand what you mean by infinite punishment, not what wikipedia editors or most Christians mean.

Punishment without end. As usually considered, burning in hell for the rest of eternity. This is the concept I was commenting on in regards to our inborn tendencies. Understand, I don't believe in this concept myself, I was commenting on how unjust it would be for God to inflict a neverending punishment on someone for a crime that could not possibly match that magnitude of punishment.

What is "Justice?" Is it "the maintenance and administration of merited rewards and punishments" as one on-line dictionary says? If so then how does someone who absolutely cannot control themselves merit either a punishment or a reward for an action? And if someone absolutely cannot control themselves, why would you think that "divine" justice would merit a reward or a punishment?

That concept of justice sounds good as a starting point. However, the entire thrust of my argument from the post you quoted is exactly in line with your questions - behavior not in control of the individual does not merit divine punishment, especially neverending (infinite) punishment. Actually, even if we were in full control of our actions, I don't think you could perform an act terrible enough to merit neverending punishment.

To me, your comment sounded like people who have a genetic pre-dispostion {to deviate from the norm} should not be held accountable for their actions.

Not by God, no. Not with his promised punishment of hellfire for eternity anyways. However, that is entirely separate from the question of human responsibility and human actions (which is why I didn't mention it in my original post).

In human society, as a matter of principle, it is irrelevant if we have free will or not. Holding people responsible for their actions is the only way to hold society together. Even sociopaths are deterred if they think they will be caught. As for the insane, we do not punish them per se, we confine them for our safety and theirs until they are deemed no longer a danger. All of this is easily defensible and completely separate from the notions of divine justice I was discussing.

On what grounds? Are you saying that the ability to predict something with 100% accuracy negates free will?

Absolutely. If there is only one potential pathway that the universe can follow, which God set in motion when the universe was created (which has scriptural support), then you have no free will. You have no choice if no other choice is possible.

As for myself, I don't think the universe runs this way. We definitely have inborn tendencies and the rules of cause-and-effect are always in effect, at least at the macro level. However, science has shown us that the Universe has a great deal of true randomness going on beneath the surface, especially at the quantum level. Call what I think for now a middle ground between free will and predestination.

If you have children you will find times when you absolutely know what will result from a course of action they are planning to take. You will counsel them against the action, but you will let them make their choice anyway (age appropriate of course) and they may learn and grow.

Yeah, but you don't know like God is supposed to know. Your children might surprise you.

If you believe that God should not hold my father responsible for the actions he took as an alcoholic because my father had a genetic pre-dispostion to become an alcoholic, then should I or society also not hold him responsible?

Not at all, they are completely separate questions. For us humans, it seems to work best if we hold people responsible for what they do, except for obvious cases like insanity. Maybe at the bottom of things us "normals" have no more choice than the "insane", but if so we can't tell.

 

[Ray]

Assuming you had the ability to see to the end of the ray (i.e. it didn't end just over your horizon) you would conclude it was infinite if it never stopped. In a similar manner, one could conclude that the universe is/will be infinite in size or duration even though the universe had a discrete beginning in both time and space.

That's a pretty good answer. You are standing with the end of a rope in your hand...it proceeds through a hole in the wall, a hole which is just large enough for the rope to go through with no light showing around the rope...is it infinite in length? I assume there is no rope that is infinite in length based on experience...and based on experience I conclude that if I have an end in my hand, then it cannot possible be infinite (or without end).

You and I do not have the ability to see infinitely far to see the infinite distant end of a ray. So if you have the starting point of the ray in your hand...

We've talked the two ends of the ray to death (the starting point and the infinitely distant point) so lets talk about our experience in the middle of the ray...we look to the left, we look to the right and the ray continues in both directions with out end. In other words without beginning and without end.

Punishment without end. As usually considered, burning in hell for the rest of eternity. This is the concept I was commenting on in regards to our inborn tendencies. Understand, I don't believe in this concept myself, I was commenting on how unjust it would be for God to inflict a neverending punishment on someone for a crime that could not possibly match that magnitude of punishment.

I do not believe in a punishment without end...I do believe that missing out on a good thing that I otherwise might have had to be a real bummer; and if I miss out forever, then it'll be an endless regret.

That concept of justice sounds good as a starting point. However, the entire thrust of my argument from the post you quoted is exactly in line with your questions - behavior not in control of the individual does not merit divine punishment, especially neverending (infinite) punishment.

I agree with you. You are advancing the thought that divine justice is endless punishment for people's actions even if they are not in control of themselves.

I believe that a just God mightl punish us for those things that we do that are wrong, that we know are wrong, that we can actually understand are wrong and choose to do anyway. I believe that my life is a learning experience, learning slowly how to become more in control of myself and my actions - though probably never perfectly acheiving it. There are some people who are assuredly not accountable for their actions and I believe that a just God will judge accordingly.

Actually, even if we were in full control of our actions, I don't think you could perform an act terrible enough to merit neverending punishment.

From what I could see in a few web searchs, my bible dictionary and topical guide, it looks like the idea of hell being without end is not completely agreed upon.

In human society, as a matter of principle, it is irrelevant if we have free will or not. Holding people responsible for their actions is the only way to hold society together. Even sociopaths are deterred if they think they will be caught. As for the insane, we do not punish them per se, we confine them for our safety and theirs until they are deemed no longer a danger.

You've completely swung me around to be in agreement with you on this.

All of this is easily defensible and completely separate from the notions of divine justice I was discussing.

Now I understand where you're coming from. You believe God's punishment is endless and painful. I believe that not each person deserves the same "out come"--pick two people maybe Hitler and someone not so bad--if we were the judge (and we're not) then maybe they wouldn't get the same "punishment." I believe the possible outcomes are as varied as the brightness of the varied stars in the sky...and I believe that's God's plan (as well as a really bright, shiney place; bright in comparison as sun to the stars); and maybe a place as bright as the moon. I believe that utter darkness is reserved for the devil and his angels.

Absolutely. If there is only one potential pathway that the universe can follow, which God set in motion when the universe was created (which has scriptural support), then you have no free will. You have no choice if no other choice is possible.

That opens a big discussion. Suffice it to say that I believe that I have free choice to a point, certainly as I make decisions the "possibility branches" diminish (for example, I'm 50 and not a MD, it's pretty certain that I will not start medical school, finish medical school, complete a residency, etc to become a Doc).

As for myself, I don't think the universe runs this way. We definitely have inborn tendencies and the rules of cause-and-effect are always in effect, at least at the macro level. However, science has shown us that the Universe has a great deal of true randomness going on beneath the surface, especially at the quantum level. Call what I think for now a middle ground between free will and predestination.

You're right for sure that there is a lot of randomness going on in the universe. I don't operate on the quantum level.

I don't have the option of controlling that rude driver who runs a stop sign so fast that I can't prevent a collision. And I can't control whether I will live or die in the collision. But there are plenty of things that I can control, like how I respond, like if I get angry when someone says or does something to me, like if I'm able to forgive and forget (I wasn't always).

Yeah, but you don't know like God is supposed to know. Your children might surprise you.

You don't know how much I wish it were true.

Not at all, they are completely separate questions. For us humans, it seems to work best if we hold people responsible for what they do, except for obvious cases like insanity. Maybe at the bottom of things us "normals" have no more choice than the "insane", but if so we can't tell.

See, we're pretty much in agreement, except you believe that God's punishment is endless and painful (but I don't think you don't believe in God?) and I don't believe that God's justice is necessisarly punishment, nor endless (but I believe in God). And I believe that God is merciful, forgiving the broken hearted sinner.

 

[Empty Hands]

You are correct that for us humans, we have no ability to perceive whether a stretch of time or distance is infinite. As for God's punishment, I only go with the notion of infinite punishment because that is what a great many believers believe, which I think is strongly challenged by what science tells us about ourselves and the universe. Granted, not all believers (like yourself) believe in this concept, but I'm not talking about them.

You are also correct in that I don't believe in God or his punishments myself. I was only commenting on how many believer's notions of divine punishment would be unjust given what science tells us about ourselves.

If there is a God and punishment, I hope you are right and not them!

Thanks for the discussion!