Minimum age for BB?

[Dirty Dog]

Starting to get a little heated in here... think it might be good to dial it back a little?

Zenjael, your statement that 4th Dan is awarded for "philosophical understanding" is just plain wrong, at least for the majority of arts. I will go so far as to say that I do not know of a single art in which this is true. Can you please enlighten us as to what art or arts award a 4th Dan for philosophical understanding?

Likewise, your reference to a child with "perfect technique" also begs for arguement. I have never seen anybody reach perfection. Not even once. And I've never seen a 5 year old who could come close. Nor can a 9 year old.

 

[Zenjael]

Zenjael, your statement that 4th Dan is awarded for "philosophical understanding" is just plain wrong, at least for the majority of arts. I will go so far as to say that I do not know of a single art in which this is true. Can you please enlighten us as to what art or arts award a 4th Dan for philosophical understanding?

I have seen 4th dan's given for perfection of technique, and meeting a set requirement of kata and the like throughout all martial arts. However, when studying Chung Do Kwan under Master Khan, I found that only up to 3rd dan were belts awarded for technical level of the material. However, to receive a 3rd dan you were expected to essentially execute perfect techniques, everytime. As I recall, that was the standard there, and it was met. This was the school mind you who trained Jason Geiger. 4th dan was awarded for ability to translate one's own understanding to another.

Not even once. And I've never seen a 5 year old who could come close. Nor can a 9 year old.

If imperfection were defined by the impossible, than I would argue that naturally one would never come across it. However, if defined by the practical and possible, one does get to witness it on rare occasion, and it is beautiful.

Negative... a black belt is designed to notate a visual representation of a pre-set level of skill achieved. This skill is not solely based on physical performance, but mental & emotional as well.

While there will always be differences in opinion, understand that what a black belt 'is', is many things, and sometimes the definition of one conflicts with the other. This does not denote disagreement, or refutation of the other's system. Some systems have no belts, at all, and degree of skill is awarded based upon ability, rather than any formalized ranking. Those are the teachers I've come to find myself seeking, today.

And your years of experience in kenjutsu is how many?? Along with everything else you've covered in your brief time sharing air??...A five year old?? Seriously?? You're questioning an adult (Manny) about his understanding of "the meaning of a black belt'?? Seriously?? Junior... my original black belt was already fading & shredding before you were born. You have a ton of nerve to question a senior (in life as well as verifiable MA training) if he understands something.

I have humbly admitted before that my 20 years are nothing compared to others. However, the most skillful practitioner I have ever met, with the deepest insight to the art, had only been practicing for 6 years, and his level of mastery was beyond that of most people I've met and witnessed. if you doubt his validity, he instructed the tai chi organization at NVCC, and is the only person I've met I think with proficient mastery respectively to bagua, xing yi and taijiquan that he could perform 3 sisters form.

Age becomes irrelevant in terms of mastery. If you care to disagree that there is an intrinsic right associated with experience, than that is your fair due, and you can always act upon that at your own school. But understand our differing of opinion does not make either of us incorrect, or each other's methodology uncouth.

I will concede a child who is a master would be a rare sight, but then again, that was also my point. Look past the superficial of age, and that of ability. I have not practiced kenjutsu long enough to make any great claim, merely that I can recognize good technique when performed, and that in my years of many different schools and teachers, who a good teacher is and who isn't. Among the best teachers I had when first learning kendo, before kenjutsu, was a 9 year old girl.

I am sorry if my stance has irked you, but I do not think I am incorrect. You attacked my age and experience, not my argument. I do not need to find you a child with preternatural skill and advanced insight, to you it would not be enough how much more than you they knew.

I mean really, ask yourself, if you were the most experienced martial artist on earth, given fortunately early training, and allowed to have a life of longetivity, who would you choose to learn from?

You never stop, and though I know assuming makes an **** out of oneself and the other, it seems to me that your answer would be no one.

I don't long for others to bow to me, merely to improve what I know. Hence why I am here.

But if we do not differ in opinion, there would be no beauty in the variety of different arts. Our disagreement is what allows understanding, not just for us, but others to grow. I don't want to think anyone deserving, would ever be withheld their just respect, because they were deemed 'too young' when the very thing stopping them is arbitrary, and subjective to each of us. I don't think that objective enough to be a legitimate reason to uphold ranking from anyone, which is all ranking conveys; due respect.

 

[Victor Smith]

In Isshinryu a black belt was defined by the instructor. Associations might have various standards, but they are not universal. I have never seen philosophical standards for a black belt in 38 years.

 

[Zenjael]

In Isshinryu a black belt was defined by the instructor. Associations might have various standards, but they are not universal. I have never seen philosophical standards for a black belt in 38 years.

It is up to the person who has founded, and is teaching the school. Some have found that to work for them. However, other schools very clearly follow philosophy in harmony with their techniques.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

In my school, the minimum age to grade for Black Belt is 16 because there are certain requirements to meet that challenge. More importantly proper attitude is required to be a black belt, and most likely individuals under 16 don't have that mentality. My school don't even allow Jr. Black Belts whatsoever.

 

[Ray B]

Many interesting view points...

A Black Belt is nothing more that a symbol representing
a relationship between a teacher and their student. If you
disagree with the criteria, then too bad. You are free to find
a school that appeals to your "Martial Ethics".

There is no right or wrong.
It all starts with and ends with the perception you have in your head.

My people train with me because they like my karate and believe in my ability
to teach it. They also agree with my critieria on obtaining a Jr. BB or Sr. BB (min. age 16).
If not, they can go to the school down the street.

Organizations follow a founder whose criteria was just as arbitrary.

 

[scottie]

I think a black belt is someone who can demonstrate and explain fundamental techniques proficently, able to use those fundamentals for self defense if need be, and
be of a mature character to represent the philosophy of the school. A child rarely can do all of this. At least in the teenage years can a person start to combine
this and know how to display each in its appropiate setting.

Thinking of a child obtaining a black belt means that he can show others below his rank how and why this technique works maybe not as well as upper levels but at least so a lower rank can understand the purpose of said technique.

A child may be able to use the techniques in a self defense setting but may lack enough worldly experience to be able to successfully know when and how to use it.
A child may be able to recite creeds or understand what self defense means but can not go deeper into concepts on how or why said founder thought this concept
is more ideal then others. I guess a child can not think logically, critically, or analytically.

I know many Adult "Black Belts" who can't don't and are not willing to do most of the above.

 

[scottie]

I think it has all been perverted in the US based on Greed, Friendships, and selfishness. I Just received my 2nd Dan in Isshinryu. My 1st Dan was "Earned" July 27 2006 with me only knowing 4 of the 8 empty hand Isshinryu Kata Because I won the largest tournament In Isshinryu Karate. On his behalf I do hold a 5th Dan in another art. I Changed instructors not long after that and 5.5 years, 4 empty hand, and 2 Weapon katas and 2 weapon Kumites later I can honestly say I feel that I earned my rank and feel proud of it. There is people being awarded a Dan Rank a year in that Dojo based on what they do not how they preform or the knowledge of the art. The Instructor Is not a low dan at all. as a matter of fact he is as high as it gets.
I think at the end of the day for me, I have my Requirements for Sho Dan as well as Sho Dan Ho that will be met, but the simple fact is that if the candidate does not realize that black or Jr. black is nothing more that a certificate to begin learning and not a certificate of completion they will stay my brown belt for ever. It doesn't if they are 12 or 112. with that said I will not promote to black until 16 or 17 in most cases. Just making a point.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

If a kid under 16 receives his or her black belt in a short period of their training, then they are not learning the entire curriculum. How can they learn how to defend themselves by a bully or a kidnapper? They only have the knowledge of winning trophies in every tournament they go to, but lacking education in History and practical self-defense. What most instructors care about is the money instead of teaching their students properly. That's just my little humble opinion.

 

[karatekid13]

At my school, there is really no way anyone under 11 could get a black belt. Even then, we don't have anyone under 13 or 14 with a first Dan belt. The BB test is very hard, and most 8-9 year olds don't even stick with it past around blue belt. The Sensei invites you to test for the advanced ranks, and he will not even invite someone who behaves immaturely. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

 

[Ray B]

I have a 14 yr old that I've been working with for several years.
A few months ago I had him lined-up behind a 4 yr old during a mixed class.
We were doing mae geri and in the corner of my eye I saw the 4 yr old fly across the floor.
Turned out, the older boy kicked the younger in the head. This kid usually has good
control of his body. After all was made good between the two, it occured to me
that the older boy had gone through a growth spurt. He was stronger and bigger
than he knew. This is MY main reason I have two ranking systems.

A Senior BB in my house means you have complete control of your body.

 

[kailat]

I recently taken over a Karate school from a friend of mine who had to give it up & I took on. I also took on his students that remained. He has a brown belt just so happens he is 14yrs old, and has been a brown belt for about 2 yrs now.

Age to reach Shodan in my opinion is 17yrs 6mo of age bottom line. I have a student who is 14 that tested for Brown Belt 2 yrs ago BEFORE I took this dojo over. I am running into a delima because he could test within this year w/ the rest of the brown belts. The projected test date is sometime in November.

I am not sure how I am going to do this. I dont want to lose him as a student due to not testing him. However, since he was a brown belt before I took over this school I may have to go against my own demands and offer a Jr. Blackbelt type rank. (Im still trying to figure out how to do this.)

I do not agree w/ the use of jr. blackbelt rank either. But for this one particular student I may not have a choice. Morally I dont think an actual SHODAN rank should be awarded before 17.5 yrs old.

But if i break this rule w/ 1 person, would it be fair to make others wait?

 

[Paloma]

I believe it's 16 in Matsumura Seito. I had 1st Dan at 13 from a Shuri-Ryu school, and when I started at the last dojo (Matsumura Seito), after some extensive testing and checking of leadership skills, they allowed me to keep my rank.
I believe that there should be exceptions to the rule (my bias might be showing), however, I do think that 15/16 is a good rule of thumb. 18 seems extreme for me, only because I know of many students who started training at 5 or 6 years old, and became very proficient and also had the maturity required, yet they've been held back solely because of an age requirement.
I would base it almost entirely on an individual basis. If your 14 year old knows his/her history, kata, has "perfect" technique, can teach//lead class, is self-disciplined and responsible, and your 25 year old shows less improvement in those areas, I'd let the 14 year old test long before the 25 year old.

 

[miguksaram]

A black belt, is not driving a car. Though both require technical skills, a car is designed for a human adult, whereas martial arts seems to be designed for the body as early as possible.

Actually not true. The legal age of driving is 16 (at least in Illinois) I wouldn't say that is an adult. A car is designed, for the most part, for average height people to reach the pedal. It doesn't care the age.

"stamina, power, speed and tech but all these is enough to award them a black belt??? I don't think so." I agree, insight of the art is. And that is possible regardless of age. I've seen a 9 year with a kenjutsu strike I can honestly say is perfect, and that is insight into a very difficult art of considerable depth.

Every school awards a black belt based on their own criteria. While some may award it based solely on being able to perform the required techniques, others may require more indepth knowledge of the art itself. I know of 2nd and 3rd dans who do not have a clue about the history of their art, but they are fine technicians and can execute anything out of their curriculum from their school with great precision. I know some who are the exact opposite. Your example of a 9 year old who executes a perfect kendo strike does not demonstrate insight into the art of kendo. It demonstrates that he can repeat a move quite well. This has also been demonstrated by a monkey but we do not say the monkey has insight into the art.

The fact that you correlate age with insight into a philosophical art makes me wonder if you understand the meaning of your black belt.

The meaning of one's belt will vary from person to person. As such you really have no right to question someone else on their understanding of their own black belt. You are not him, so do you do not know what he went through to earn it so how can you question him on its meaning to him?

You see, it is just belt, and the respect you attribute to it should be less to the cloth, and the depth of ability in the art.

Perhaps to you it is just a belt. Your perception of your own rank is not the same as everyone else.

Perhaps then you will see why your quoted statement is ironic- if a 5 year has perfect technique, they technically warrant a 3rd dan. 4th dan is awarded for philosophical understanding of the martial art, for it is only in understanding whereby one can teach, and create in the art, which is the ultimate goal of allllll the training before it.

Again, this is your own interpretation based on your own experience in your small world of martial arts. Some arts do no require deep understanding. They just require technical know how. Some arts require you to know the history all they way back to the founders. Some arts require you to know the symbolic motions of what you do in order to move on.

A black belt is akin to enlightenment to me, though a small stage. An awakening, not the fulfillment. Enlightenment can come to anyone, at any time, for any reason.

Enlightenment does not happen to a seven year old nor a nine year old simply because they created the perfect technique. Enlightenment is developed through years of life experience.

 

[FabianosKarate]

Our style (our school I should say) has no minimum age set for Jr. Black Belt, but it is commonly known it is around 10-12 years old. As far as Adult Black, 16 years old is the minimum age. Adult forms also differ from Kids forms, so once a student does turn 16, they must learn several additional forms and wazas.

Our minimum student age is 6 years old as well.