Time to get to BB

[Daniel Sullivan]

because unless they are Bruce Friggin Lee, it takes that long to get that good.

And he probably took that long to get good too. Supposedly, he learned tai chi from his father and he started training in Wing Chun at the age of thirteen. I think he left Hong Kong for the states when he was around eighteen. Assuming that he trained with Yip Man from 13-18, that plus training from dad was well over six years. He also spent a lot of time in fistfights as a youngster, so essentially, you have a young man who had spent most of his youth fighting in some form or another. It is less likely that he was such a prodigy than it is that he simply had a lot of time fighting. By the time anyone in the west knew who he was, he had probably at least six years worth of formal training and possibly a decade of getting into fist fights.

In other words, Bruce Lee is not an example of a phenomenal guy after a year or two of training.

wait, thats only half true.

it takes that long to ge that good AND to learn to teach it.

if i never worried about someone learning to TEACH?

prob 3 years

Just to clarify, essentially, you are saying that three years to BB as acceptable if based entirely on personal performance? If that is what you are saying, I agree; three years is plenty.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

On the other hand, trappings aside, if you compare the basic techniques of both students after one year, I suspect that the student in the four year to BB school will look better but have fewer techniques while the same student in the one year to BB school will have learned more techniques but will not be as solid with them.

Here's an important distinction to me, at least. What happens in either scenario if the student quits after a year of studies? At my school, he'd be like a 7th gup. At the other school, he's a first dan. This leads to serious perception problems about traditional martial arts and their practical usage, because I don't believe either student will be combat effective at this stage, regardless of their syllabus, shortened or not. But perhaps this is another discussion for another thread.

 

[Miles]

because unless they are Bruce Friggin Lee, it takes that long to get that good.

wait, thats only half true.

it takes that long to ge that good AND to learn to teach it.

if i never worried about someone learning to TEACH?

prob 3 years

Do you require your 1st degree black belts to teach?

 

[sfs982000]

Did you know that you can take two identical eggs from the same chicken and one will take longer to cook than the other? Putting a minimum time is good, but should we ignore/hold back those who excell?

Doesn't matter to me about classes (laughable) or years. When the student is ready they are ready. Plain and simple.
Ata is one of the reasons tkd has such a bad rep in my area. I have had a few exp with bb from ata, none good.

I would have to disagree with you to an extent, I don't think that having a minimum amount of time at a particular grade before being considered for promotion is a bad thing, but I agree that if a person is picking up the material quicker than others or has previous experience I personally don't have any problem with that person being promoted ahead of everyone else. Promotions in my school are contingent on the chief instructor approving you for testing. I've seen him not recommend individuals for testing just as I've seen individuals not get promoted at testings. Not to start another ATA bashing thread, I'm well aware of the reputation that the ATA has, but fortunately I have not had that experience at my school.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Here's an important distinction to me, at least. What happens in either scenario if the student quits after a year of studies? At my school, he'd be like a 7th gup. At the other school, he's a first dan. This leads to serious perception problems about traditional martial arts and their practical usage, because I don't believe either student will be combat effective at this stage, regardless of their syllabus, shortened or not. But perhaps this is another discussion for another thread.

I would consider that a different topic, as you are getting into public (often erroneous)perceptions of what it means to have a black belt versus what it means to be a first dan.

Regarding combat effective, I'd say that the one year seventh geub would probably be able to take care of himself if he had to, primarilly because of a one year focus on a much smaller technique set. Taegeuk iljang, yijang, and samjang are fairly basic, with knife hand strikes being introduced in samjang. Otherwise, you are talking about a year of forms that involve front kicks, low, middle, and high blocks, and straight punches, along with all of the associated kicking and punching drills, one steps, and any sparring.

The one year BB may also be able to handle himself okay, though I give the nod to the one year chilgeub due to greater time spent on each technique.

Either way, both should be able to handle themselves okay after a year of training and neither would be exactly stellar.

My personal feeling is that if you cannot handle yourself to some degree after a year of training then either you aren't showing up for class, aren't taking the class seriously, or need to find another instructor.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

So what I am gathering is that many of you feel that the times that you set are measuring points of when they are good enough. So what is your definition of good? Is good meaning the student can successfully defend themselves in situations? Is good meaning they can execute their patterns cleanly? Is good being able to hold their own in sparring against similar rank or up to 1-2 ranks higher?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So what I am gathering is that many of you feel that the times that you set are measuring points of when they are good enough. So what is your definition of good? Is good meaning the student can successfully defend themselves in situations? Is good meaning they can execute their patterns cleanly? Is good being able to hold their own in sparring against similar rank or up to 1-2 ranks higher?

Not sure if you are directing this to Twin Fist or me, but I'll answer if it is the latter.

Good would mean able to do the techniques correctly and free of any serious bad habits. For basic techniques, such as reverse punches, front kicks, side kicks, roundhouse kicks, and axe kicks, that should be dealt with between tenth and seventh geub (prior to green belt).

Handle themselves okay means not freezing up if he or she needs to defend themselves and being able to exeute the techniques that they have learned in a practical real life situation. Handle themselves okay means just that. Not that they'll win every fight they ever get into, but that they can practically use the tools that they have learned up to the point that they are in training. That should happen by green belt, which usually takes eight months to a year to get.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

Not sure if you are directing this to Twin Fist or me, but I'll answer if it is the latter.

Good would mean able to do the techniques correctly and free of any serious bad habits. For basic techniques, such as reverse punches, front kicks, side kicks, roundhouse kicks, and axe kicks, that should be dealt with between tenth and seventh geub (prior to green belt).

Handle themselves okay means not freezing up if he or she needs to defend themselves and being able to exeute the techniques that they have learned in a practical real life situation. Handle themselves okay means just that. Not that they'll win every fight they ever get into, but that they can practically use the tools that they have learned up to the point that they are in training. That should happen by green belt, which usually takes eight months to a year to get.

Daniel

The question was for anyone to answer and not directed to anyone specifically.
What happens after 7th Guep?

 

[Archtkd]

I doubt your experience is universal. I've related my own experience with Korean colleagues from my professional life before. They've attained BB as children and they did not take their accomplishment seriously.

There is nothing magical about being Korean or Japanese or Okinawan or Chinese or American for that matter. You reap what you sow. The more meaningful time you put into an activity, the better you'll be, and that's true whether we are talking about martial arts or scholastic endeavors.

I have the same feeling. These mass BB tests in Korea show what the quality of some people getting BBs in that country -- just like here -- can be pretty mediocre.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_OE3i1a_D0&feature=related

 

[puunui]

if i never worried about someone learning to TEACH? prob 3 years

Ok, so the standard in Korea is one year, and the consensus is that it is acceptable to lengthen the time to 3 years, or even longer. How about for the higher dan levels? Is it also acceptable to triple the time requirements for those ranks as well? For the instructors that add extra requirements beyond the Kukkiwon minimum, do you think it is acceptable if your instructor did the same thing to you, triple the time requirements and add a whole bunch of other hoops to jump through before you were deemed ready to receive your next promotion? How does that work?

 

[puunui]

Certainly the less material you have to cover, the shorter the amount of time to transmit and learn it. I suspect I have rather more material I expect my students to learn compared to the minimum KKW requirements.

But you have also stated in the past that you have only one dan rank, 1st Dan. So I can understand why your 1st Dan curriculum would have more material.

 

[Twin Fist]

Just to clarify, essentially, you are saying that three years to BB as acceptable if based entirely on personal performance? If that is what you are saying, I agree; three years is plenty.

Daniel

yes, if i am not training them to be a TEACHER as well as a performer, then 3 years is enough.

 

[Twin Fist]

Do you require your 1st degree black belts to teach?

no i dont, i require my sceonds to teach.

you have no interest in teaching? you will never get past 1st dan with me

 

[dancingalone]

For the instructors that add extra requirements beyond the Kukkiwon minimum, do you think it is acceptable if your instructor did the same thing to you, triple the time requirements and add a whole bunch of other hoops to jump through before you were deemed ready to receive your next promotion? How does that work?

I'm not sure there is a market for a 1 year, limited curriculum BB here in the US, KKW-certified or not. I don't see the issue of adding material and thus increasing the length of study time as a problem given the general expectation that a BB WILL take 3-5 years, even when compared across different martial arts.

It's my belief that anyone offering a 1 year BB in my area will be at an competitive disadvantage over time as the word gets out about the limited curriculum offered by them. I don't think American studio owners necessarily are only after money by making the rank more difficult to achieve. I think they believe they are genuinely doing the student a service by making the curriculum more comprehensive and that would be my position too in their shoes.

 

[Twin Fist]

Ok, so the standard in Korea is one year

hell, send some of those 1 yr bb's texas.....

 

[dancingalone]

But you have also stated in the past that you have only one dan rank, 1st Dan. So I can understand why your 1st Dan curriculum would have more material.

That's a valid point. Yet, I can also compare to aikido and Goju-ryu karate, two other martial arts I have dan ranking in. The syllabi for both has substantially more content than just learning Tae Geuk Il-Jang to Pal-jang and some sparring.

I believe it would be wise for TKD martial artists in general to also have a similar level of content for their chodan requirements, lest they rightfully be criticized for having 'easier' standards.

(I should also add that in my TKD school that while there is only one black belt rank, there is certainly more knowledge to be learned after gaining BB. Only there are no more formal belt sheets with an outline of requirements past BB.)

 

[Thesemindz]

Just as a point of interest I teach at an American Kenpo school. We have ten ranks to Black and it takes around four years, or about 600 hours of training in the school to get that rank. Along the way they have three comprehensive tests where they are required to demonstrate proficiency with all previous material in order to progress to the next class. The students are also required to keep their notebooks current for each test with concepts, training methods, and patterns, and they will each complete a 20 page thesis on any martial arts related topic before their black belt test. We have around 170 techniques, 25 sets, and 10 forms. The students test every four months, then every six months, then after a year, and they learn basics, ground fighting, sparring, street self defense, clubs, knives, and staff.

It took me a lot longer to get my black belt, 8 years. I was not a very good student in the beginning and I missed a lot of class. Some people really excel and go a little faster, but not much faster than 3 and a half years. The general timeline is about four. Assuming no delays or missed tests or extended leaves of absence. And it's assumed that the students are practicing on their own outside the school. You really couldn't pass tests at that rate without doing your homework. I'd say at least 2 hours a week for beginners, 4 for intermediate, and 8 or more for advanced.

Even then, a four year black belt is barely more than a rank beginner. He is formidable. He is a badass. But he's just a badass normal. He doesn't need his hand held anymore. Now that he's finally learned how, he can start learning karate. Black belt is an important rank, it gets you in the door, but it should never be the end of the journey.


-Rob

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The question was for anyone to answer and not directed to anyone specifically.
What happens after 7th Guep?

Students learn Taegeuk iljang at ninth geub, yijang at eighth, and samjang at seventh. Tenth through seventh geub are all about the raw basics; those things that pretty much everything else will build upon.

Nothing magical about seventh geub; only that by the time you test for green belt in most US schools, you've got eight months to a year in, which should be enough time to get a firm enough grip on the basics that the student can handle themselves okay and can move onto more advanced techniques.

As for what specifically happens after chiljang, the student learns Taegeuk sajang for starters.

Taegeuk sajang introduces techniques that go beyond just front kicks, basic blocks, and reverse punches and numerous changes in stance, whereas iljang through samjang are done mostly in a walking stance.

If you look at the first three Taegeuk pumse, they are composed primarilly of basic techniques, with only samjang having any stances other than front and walking (the back stance) or any strikes other than straight punches and front kicks (the knife hand). Other than minor variations, the first three Taegeuk pumse keep you going over essentially the same skill set.

Going from tenth geub to first dan in one year means that you are sixth geub and onto sajang after about four months. Four months of basics and Iljang - Samjang is probably enough to get the students doing the basic techniques 'correctly' assuming a fairly robust training schedule (3-4 classes a week plus regular practice outside of class). I would not expect such a student to be particularly combat worthy, though I feel that they possibly could be.

In a US school, you are spending two to three times training in those same basics, so after eight months to a year, yes, I expect the student to be able to handle themselves with what they have learned.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ok, so the standard in Korea is one year, and the consensus is that it is acceptable to lengthen the time to 3 years, or even longer. How about for the higher dan levels? Is it also acceptable to triple the time requirements for those ranks as well?

If there is triple the amount of meanngful material, I would say that it is acceptable, but I would not advocate doing so.

For the instructors that add extra requirements beyond the Kukkiwon minimum, do you think it is acceptable if your instructor did the same thing to you, triple the time requirements and add a whole bunch of other hoops to jump through before you were deemed ready to receive your next promotion? How does that work?

As long as they are adding meaningful training and not simply adding a whole bunch of hoops to jump through.

For example, a TKD school who's owner is also an advanced hapkidoist decides to work in his full HKD hoshinsul and bo staff curriculum (meaning actually learning the weapon, not just a few forms) as a requirement for first dan students in addition to learning Koryo. In that scenario, two years to second dan instead of one would be perfectly acceptable in my opinion.

So far as I know, the Kukkiwon allows schools the flexibility to do such things, so it would not to my knowledge be breaking any major Kukkiwon policies.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

I believe it would be wise for TKD martial artists in general to also have a similar level of content for their chodan requirements, lest they rightfully be criticized for having 'easier' standards.

Why is that important, how other martial arts practitioners judge Taekwondo?