Military Martial Art. Really a Martial Art?

[Littledragon]

Re: Military Martial Art. Really a Martial Art?

I agree with all the ones who are saying that martial art consists of physical force and all that kind of stuff...

But..


In order to have Yin and Yang you need both Yin and Yang

In order to have Martial Art you need both Martial and Art

In my opinion I think Military Martial Arts is missing the ART aspect and focusing mainly on the MARTIAL aspect.

Like I said in order to have a whole you need two of the halfes.

Tarek

I really don't think our military cares if you consider it the training our soldiers are recieving as martial arts whole or half. The main objective is to train our men and women well enough in the art of hand to hand combat so they can come back home and live long lives with they're families.
While We sit in our nice safe dojangs and learn how to break pine and clay our men and women have to be prepared to snap bone and sometimes even snap to the point of death. there are not to many civilians out here that would be able to go that far.
When I was training in the military my instructors taught a varitity of arts so we could be well rounded and be able to adapt. we learned TKD Judo Grappling and Akido. I have been out for 15 yrs now so it may be different I dont know.

Take it for what it's worth, not trying to start any trouble.

Kik

I completly agree with what you said so from what you have said I come to believe that you are right they don't care if they have the art aspect.
The main objective is to train our men and women well enough in the art of hand to hand combat so they can come back home and live long lives with they're families.
So from that being said it cant be classified as Martial ART but more of Martial Combat so I don't agree with the military calling it Martial Art.

:asian:

 

[Tgace]

At what point did the Samurai skills in sword, spear, bow, h2h etc. flip from combat to art? Any skill can be elevated to art, its all in the amount of time, effort and specialization you want to put into it. A soldier who is an "artist" in h2h but cant shoot, navigate or "hump" a ruck isnt a good soldier. A Cop who is an "artist" with his handgun but cant follow-up on an investigation, or control a suspect isnt much of a cop. Each of those skills are improtant, but what is the overall goal?

 

[Littledragon]

At what point did the Samurai skills in sword, spear, bow, h2h etc. flip from combat to art? Any skill can be elevated to art, its all in the amount of time, effort and specialization you want to put into it. A soldier who is an "artist" in h2h but cant shoot, navigate or "hump" a ruck isnt a good soldier. A Cop who is an "artist" with his handgun but cant follow-up on an investigation, or control a suspect isnt much of a cop. Each of those skills are improtant, but what is the overall goal?

All I am saying is Martial Arts consist of two things, combat and philosophy/spirituality and every martial artist knows that.

:asian:

 

[loki09789]

I completly agree with what you said so from what you have said I come to believe that you are right they don't care if they have the art aspect.
The main objective is to train our men and women well enough in the art of hand to hand combat so they can come back home and live long lives with they're families.
So from that being said it cant be classified as Martial ART but more of Martial Combat so I don't agree with the military calling it Martial Art.

:asian:

I think the thing to remember is that the point being made was that soldiers/servicemen and women don't care if you think what they do is an art, not whether they consider it an art......

 

[Littledragon]

I think the thing to remember is that the point being made was that soldiers/servicemen and women don't care if you think what they do is an art, not whether they consider it an art......

I know I understand that, but the thing I am just trying to get at is the NAME in general can it be called Martial Art if the ART aspect is not present?

 

[Tgace]

All I am saying is Martial Arts consist of two things, combat and philosophy/spirituality and every martial artist knows that.

:asian:

Ive been in my share of dojos, where there was no mention of philosophy/spirituality, and Ive seen my share of instructors who werent qualified to "preach" on those subjects either way. But I do understand your point of view.

 

[Littledragon]

Ive been in my share of dojos, where there was no mention of philosophy/spirituality, and Ive seen my share of instructors who werent qualified to "preach" on those subjects either way. But I do understand your point of view.

Ok cool, as long as my point of view was getting across.

 

[Tgace]

Each branch of the service has their "values and ethics" statements. They are as close to a "martial philosophy" as you can get when compared to MA.

 

[Littledragon]

Each branch of the service has their "values and ethics" statements. They are as close to a "martial philosophy" as you can get when compared to MA.

Yes know I understand where you are coming from but sadly I don't think you will find alot of military units thinking the same way, I bet they are thinking more of how to kill this person with no mercy instead.

 

[loki09789]

Yes know I understand where you are coming from but sadly I don't think you will find alot of military units thinking the same way, I bet they are thinking more of how to kill this person with no mercy instead.

Well, when Tgace and I were in Bosnia, I think the main professional priority, from conversations while we were there between us, was being the most fluid, effective and proficient MP so that we could accomplsih the mission, not necessarily kill without mercy. Dude where do you think troops come from? These are citizens like you. High school kids and a little older. No one takes their head off and plugs in a terminator brain.

We always trained to maximize the number of troops we kept alive and to use force within a responsible force continuum....sounds like values and morals/artistic mastery of your tool application to me. Some embraced that idea more than others, but in Dojos you get the same dynamics.

Personally, I found myself focusing more on food,work-outs, movies..... but that was all we had to do...

My point is that the demonstrative expression of 'artistic skill' is going to be different for each application. In civilian/commercial martial arts that expression is going to be in the grace, fluidity, power, bearing.... of the artist. A similar 'expression' is going to how often/well the school wins tournaments and other competitions.

In application/military/tactical/combatives arts that demonstrative expression of 'artistic mastery' is going to be the efficiency, speed, fluidity and bearing with which the individual/unit commander employs his technical and tactical skills to accomplish the mission.

Given the number of peacekeeping mission/low intensity conflict/humanitarian efforts deployments of US forces, focusing on 'killing without mercy' as a primary goal would really be counter productive.

 

[SMP]

Great point loki - It is my belief the military initially teaches basic fighting techniques that teach you to be more confident while some one kicks your backside. Yes this is true for the marines as well. That said many bases have very talented instructors teaching day in and day out. As for a us military martial art why not.

 

[Ippon Ken]

Each branch of the service has their "values and ethics" statements. They are as close to a "martial philosophy" as you can get when compared to MA.

Yeah, it's called the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice), and it is all encompassing. Although the USAF may call nonjudicial punishment an Article 15 and the USN has diffrent designation for it, the laws of the military are the same for all services across the board.

The USMC MA that is an amalgam of Okinawan karate, Thai Boxing and wrestling is a legitimate system, with belt rankings form white to black. It affords a lifer, or 20 year commitment type, the chance to make it up to black belt. Unlike the Rangers (Army) BJJ/TKD program, it is based on real world efficacy and can be learned by any Marine, not just the SpecOps variety.

For those idiots who claim that karate is useless obviously have never trained in or seen real karate. The core USMC system is almost all Okinawan karate, with some Thai and Western wrestling tactics and techs thrown in. The USMC will not waste valuable money and time on training the sportive arts to its troops. Plus, the Marines are a much tougher lot than the Army on the whole, and definitely elite compared to the average to below average specimen seen in the Army.

 

[Kevin Walker]

Yeah, it's called the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice), and it is all encompassing. Although the USAF may call nonjudicial punishment an Article 15 and the USN has diffrent designation for it, the laws of the military are the same for all services across the board.

The USMC MA that is an amalgam of Okinawan karate, Thai Boxing and wrestling is a legitimate system, with belt rankings form white to black. It affords a lifer, or 20 year commitment type, the chance to make it up to black belt. Unlike the Rangers (Army) BJJ/TKD program, it is based on real world efficacy and can be learned by any Marine, not just the SpecOps variety.

For those idiots who claim that karate is useless obviously have never trained in or seen real karate. The core USMC system is almost all Okinawan karate, with some Thai and Western wrestling tactics and techs thrown in. The USMC will not waste valuable money and time on training the sportive arts to its troops. Plus, the Marines are a much tougher lot than the Army on the whole, and definitely elite compared to the average to below average specimen seen in the Army.

FYI: The USN calls an Article 15 a 'Captain's Mast'.