"Marine Corps Martial Art"

[KenpoTex]

I read an article recently, I think in Black Belt Magazine, that mentioned the U.S.M.C. program. It didn't really go into what level an instructor has to be at but they did say that anyone who is an instructor is required to study a martial-arts system (of his/her choice) on their own time. I imagine that this is to make sure that the Marines' system continues to evolve rather than to stagnate over time...from what little I have read with regard to this program in general, it sounds like a pretty good idea to me.

 

[Nightingale]

Paul-

I'm sure my friend's experiences had something to do with his abilities as a martial artist, as all of our experiences come together to shape who we are. How much of an influence, I cannot say. What I can say is that regardless, he's a damn good martial artist.

As for the comment about the way a black belt is supposed to move, I've seen many black belts in many systems who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. This is NOT the way a black belt ought to move. I was stressing that my friend achieved the standard for his rank, rather than merely wearing the belt. I would not want to be on the receiving end of his martial arts ability. I've been involved in martial arts for over fifteen years. I've seen good martial artists and bad martial artists. He's one of the good ones. Ok?

 

[loki09789]

Paul-

I was stressing that my friend achieved the standard for his rank, rather than merely wearing the belt. I would not want to be on the receiving end of his martial arts ability. I've been involved in martial arts for over fifteen years. I've seen good martial artists and bad martial artists. He's one of the good ones. Ok?

Nightingale,

I wasn't questioning your judgement in anyway. You mentioned his movement was were it should be, and I was thinking about how, in the past, many hand to hand techical drills and instruction left military hand to hand looking clunky and robotic. From the sounds of it, your friend moved very smoothly and fluidly. That is probably a combination of fitness, will and technical training of some kind - as you alluded to. Parker Kenpo, a cousin to my Al Tracy Kenpo background, seems to emphasis SERIOUS mobility. So, your observation of his movement would be that he is the real deal. I saw an old episode of "I LOVE LUCY" where Ed Parker is teaching 'karate' to Lucy and even there, he looked powerful and fast. WOW!

The clunky old stuff of military hand to hand was sort of linked to the mention of the DEFENDO system that has come back in vogue was originally called DEFENDU and was a military eclectic based on 'kung fu' and that was why they tried naming it DEFENDU. If you have watched any original Star Trek episodes, the fighting was DEFENDU. It is really clunky and mechanical looking.

The modern version of DEFENDO incorporates more dynamic and fluid movmenet styles.

Paul M

 

[Black Bear]

I have a set of Defendo tapes. The guy has that funny waxed moustache right? He's from Vancouver, he calls his studio "Battleschool"?

 

[Disco]

If and When the Marines come ashore into the civilian world, they will be forced to massage (being diplomatic here), what they wish to teach if they exspect to keep the doors open. That's just the way society has evolved. :btg:

 

[Black Bear]

I don't think so. There are more and more people nowadays who want the real deal.

 

[theletch1]

http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0102/010402nj2.htm

I don't think so. There are more and more people nowadays who want the real deal.

Right on the money, there. If anything gets toned down it will probably be language used in the training session. I read a description of a training session somewhere (it was linked from this site I just can't find it) and if it is left as is in the civilian world it's gonna take someone of a different mindset than the "I just want to get in shape." "I just want to do something to meet people" crowd. The link at the top will take you to the description of the training.

 

[loki09789]

Black Bear,

Yeah, I think he was/is a RCMP Sgt Major. The stuff is good, hard and gritty training. I tend to cringe at the Muay Thai influence because too much of that type of movement in street fighting might cause some problems when the terrain will vary.... good stuff in general though. I don't know about the total idealogy/conceptuallity of the training in regards to use of force, awareness, tactics.....

but the fight training is pretty much the same as Krav Maga: Respond until the BG poses no more threat and then respond one more time and get out of there.

Paul M.

 

[loki09789]

The down side I see to a commercial USMCMP would be the 'wannabe' image of training at a place like this. Advertising/imaging would have to be very careful about promoting the 'espirit' of the USMC tradition over making students 'as good as' marines. Plus, for children, simple responsibility would require that a modified curriculum, so that the character training that some parents might be attracted to would be emphasised over the lethallity of the training.

Establishing good relationships with recruiting centers, schools, veteran's associations.... would be easier, I think, for this type of program. ESPECIALLY if the fitness/conditioning standards were still promoted as part of overall training of the students...


Paul M.

 

[arnisador]

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=945

 

[theletch1]

The down side I see to a commercial USMCMP would be the 'wannabe' image of training at a place like this. Advertising/imaging would have to be very careful about promoting the 'espirit' of the USMC tradition over making students 'as good as' marines. Plus, for children, simple responsibility would require that a modified curriculum, so that the character training that some parents might be attracted to would be emphasised over the lethallity of the training.

Establishing good relationships with recruiting centers, schools, veteran's associations.... would be easier, I think, for this type of program. ESPECIALLY if the fitness/conditioning standards were still promoted as part of overall training of the students...


Paul M.

The only way to be as good as a Marine is to take a 3 month vacation at one of the MCRDs ('course everyone knows P.I. is the only real one :uhyeah: ) but I see the point that you are making. As for the kids I'd have to agree that a toned down course would have to be worked out. The character training that is given in the Corps is wasn't something that most parents would want to put their kids through. Marine Corps character isn't so much molded as it is just sorta beaten into place. Now, if, simply by emulation or association your child becomes a better or stronger person then there's a bonus. I'd have to think that if this is to be kept at the level at which it is being taught now that there should be no childrens classes involved until the system "de-evolves" a little to suit a more civilian perspective.

 

[theletch1]

Sorry for the double posts but I just got off the phone with the local USMC recruiter. I asked him for info on the system as far as techniques, history, what the training entails. He is contacting a SSgt here in Va who is a 5th black in the system to get hold of me. I gave him the site address for MT so that he could pass the word to this Marine and give him the opportunity to fill us in from a first person persepective. The recruiter that I spoke to was very willing to at least try to set up a demonstration via his public affairs officer. Probably be monday before we get a response but it's a start.

 

[loki09789]

Outstanding! Direct sourcing can't be beat! If he joins in, it would be a chance to learn from first hand experience the differences/simiarities, as well as the possibility of market versions of the program. Thanks.

Until then,

This is the type of foundation that would make up the character aspects of the program, of course the spirit of this would be more the emphasis and not the "Marine"ness of it for obvious reasons.

"U.S. Marine Corps Core Values

U.S. Marine Corps' Core Values

Generation after generation of American men and women have given special meaning to the title United States Marine. These same men and women live by a set of enduring Core Values which forms the bedrock of their character. The Core Values give Marines strength and regulate their behavior; they bond the Marine Corps into a total force that can meet any challenge.

Honor

Honor guides Marines to exemplify the ultimate in ethical and moral behavior; to never lie cheat or steal; to abide by an uncompromising code of integrity; respect human dignity; and respect others. The quality of maturity, dedication, trust and dependability commit Marines to act responsibly; to be accountable for their actions; to fulfill their obligations; and to hold others accountable for their actions.

Courage

Courage is the mental, moral and physical strength ingrained in Marines. It carries them through the challenges of combat and helps them overcome fear. It is the inner strength that enables a Marine to do what is right; to adhere to a higher standard of personal conduct; and to make tough decisions under stress and pressure.

Commitment

Commitment is the spirit of determination and dedication found in Marines. It leads to the highest order of discipline for individuals and units. It is the ingredient that enables 24-hour a day dedication to Corps and country. It inspires the unrelenting determination to achieve a standard of excellence in every endeavor. "

Not that different from other warrior/martial traditional values, but because of the source (current military, living history...) people could be drawn to it because it is a value set by and for Americans.

Of course, there are those who see Eastern values/philosophies as superior and would go to an Eastern/Asian based training school because of that. It is a toss up.

PauL M
Paul M

 

[loki09789]

The only way to be as good as a Marine is to take a 3 month vacation at one of the MCRDs ('course everyone knows P.I. is the only real one :uhyeah: ) but I see the point that you are making.

But of course, MCRD SD Marines learn to surf , but they do have Mount MF from what I hear.

The character training that is given in the Corps is wasn't something that most parents would want to put their kids through. Marine Corps character isn't so much molded as it is just sorta beaten into place.

I was thinking more of the classes/lectures that we went through and of course the accountability/consequences would have to be MUCH more civilized, but the goal is different so that would be appropriate.

Now, if, simply by emulation or association your child becomes a better or stronger person then there's a bonus.

I was thinking along these lines as well for benefits.

I'd have to think that if this is to be kept at the level at which it is being taught now that there should be no childrens classes involved until the system "de-evolves" a little to suit a more civilian perspective.

That would make it hard to market but give it a real 'hard' rep in RB training markets

Paul M

 

[Disco]

There is another aspect that evolves from the MC Ranking. Once somebody leaves/discharged, they are stuck at the ranking they have gotten thru the program, unless they affiliate with a new Martial Arts organization. We have a new addition to our training group, who just recently was discharged. He has the BB rank (1st Dan) from the USMC. Unless you stay in, you can't go up in rank in that system. According to his information, but that makes sense though. With this understanding, we may not see any USMC dojo's popping up.

 

[arnisador]

Someone will find a way. Look for US MCDojo's in the future.

 

[tkdguy1982]

Here is my ?, is their style watered down, etc.... my guess since its marines I would think they would train a whole lot harder.... anybody else have ideas on this? Is it different as in their training is better than the training taught in the states?

 

[moving target]

The article TheLetch1 linked implied it was simplifie3d as far as number of techniques from its "traditional" root arts. It has to be quick to learn. But I don't know if that quality alone could be considered "watering it down" it seems there must be material not covered by any of the traditional arts referenced in it's creation (like bayonet use). I haven’t seen it and don't know anyone familiar with it but it maybe better to look at is as a new MA rather than a simple adaptation of other arts. But that's just speculation.

 

[tkdguy1982]

But, it would seem to me that if the marine corps is teaching it, say a modern situation, marine corps MA vs. traditional, do you think traditional wouldn't have a chance? I think it would really depend on how hard that certain individual trains.

 

[Tgace]

IMHO there are pros and cons to the "combatives" movement and "traditional MA"....

combatives
PRO: Quicker to learn, self defense focus, more "martial" in the tradition of the old "warrior training hall" model
CON: I would think that its tougher to keep students in these types of arts for the "long haul". Once you learn the "combatives" program, how much further do you go? Traditional arts have the "artistic" and "spiritual development" aspects which allow for lifetime study. I dont know if the "military model" school provides the same thing.

Traditional
PRO: See above. Can provide benefits beyond fighting skills (discipline, personal development, etc.).
CON: Many are a "snapshot" of ancient warfare that, while effective in their times, seem out of touch with modern developments. Much like a civil war reinactor demonstrates skills that were effective in the 1800's (and may have "modern" application to some extent), but not today.

Where will the USMC program fall when adapted to civilian use? I dont know.