Meditation

[Oily Dragon]

Some more stuff to read about the horrible health effects of sitting too long (more than 30m). The current science basically equates long term sitting to smoking cigarettes. Increased heart issue, blood sugar, diabetes, visceral fat gain, cholesterol, and more.

The worst part? Sitting too long can actually negate the effects of exercise before and after. Work out for an hour, then sit on your butt for an hour, your metabolism shuts down, so does the fat burning process. As bad as drinking and smoking after a workout.

Patterns of Sedentary Behavior and Mortality in U.S. Middle-Aged and Older Adults: A National Cohort Study: Annals of Internal Medicine: Vol 167, No 7

Background: Excessive sedentary time is ubiquitous in Western societies. Previous studies have relied on self-reporting to evaluate the total volume of sedentary time as a prognostic risk factor for mortality and have not examined whether the manner in which sedentary time is accrued (in short...

www.acpjournals.org

It is NOT okay to sit for more than these many hours a day

Talk about any culture and offering the guest a seat is the most basic part of its mannerism. We all do serious bizz only when we are sitting, right? If someone at work is not found at his desk often, he is labelled as a shirker. So, experts believe that we all need to start with reshaping the...

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

"WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU SIT FOR OVER 30 MINUTES? “Metabolism slows down 90 percent after 30 minutes of sitting. The enzymes that move the bad fat from your arteries to your muscles, where it can get burned off, slow down. The muscles in your lower body are turned off. And after two hours, good cholesterol drops 20 percent. Just getting up for five minutes is going to get things going again."

 

[Martlet]

Some more stuff to read about the horrible health effects of sitting too long (more than 30m). The current science basically equates long term sitting to smoking cigarettes. Increased heart issue, blood sugar, diabetes, visceral fat gain, cholesterol, and more.

The worst part? Sitting too long can actually negate the effects of exercise before and after. Work out for an hour, then sit on your butt for an hour, your metabolism shuts down, so does the fat burning process. As bad as drinking and smoking after a workout.

Patterns of Sedentary Behavior and Mortality in U.S. Middle-Aged and Older Adults: A National Cohort Study: Annals of Internal Medicine: Vol 167, No 7

Background: Excessive sedentary time is ubiquitous in Western societies. Previous studies have relied on self-reporting to evaluate the total volume of sedentary time as a prognostic risk factor for mortality and have not examined whether the manner in which sedentary time is accrued (in short...

www.acpjournals.org

It is NOT okay to sit for more than these many hours a day

Talk about any culture and offering the guest a seat is the most basic part of its mannerism. We all do serious bizz only when we are sitting, right? If someone at work is not found at his desk often, he is labelled as a shirker. So, experts believe that we all need to start with reshaping the...

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

"WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU SIT FOR OVER 30 MINUTES? “Metabolism slows down 90 percent after 30 minutes of sitting. The enzymes that move the bad fat from your arteries to your muscles, where it can get burned off, slow down. The muscles in your lower body are turned off. And after two hours, good cholesterol drops 20 percent. Just getting up for five minutes is going to get things going again."

Hopefully this thread doesn’t get sidetracked by a few individuals who don’t want people to meditate sitting.

My request pertains to sitting while meditating.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I just started my Kenpo journey and have considered adding meditation to my tool belt. For those that meditate, what method works best?

Are there any books, videos, or apps that help you? I have an app that has a meditation section (Peloton) but haven't really used it.

When do you meditate? I was thinking about doing it in the morning after I exercise and practice, but would it be best in the evening before bed?

How long do you typically meditate for?

Thanks!

Finding the Still Point (Book and CD): A Beginner's Guide to Zen Meditation by Jon Daido Loori​

 

[Oily Dragon]

Hopefully this thread doesn’t get sidetracked by a few individuals who don’t want people to meditate sitting.

My request pertains to sitting while meditating.

I meditate sitting all the time, but there are risks people should know about.

Don't sit (meditating, working, etc) for more than 30m, is just necessary for maintaining your overall health.

Like I said, Shaolin seated meditation (da jaw) is actually part of a larger set of routines, including Qigong, mostly because monks sitting around all day get fat and unhealthy. It's a move it or lose it philosophy.

Sitting in zazen too long is bad for you, basically, according to modern medicine. That doesn't mean never do it, but it needs to be done in moderation, like most things. You asked "how long", so my line is just "no more than 30m", especially if you work out too. Wasted gains suck.

 

[mograph]

I meditate sitting all the time, but there are risks people should know about.

Don't sit (meditating, working, etc) for more than 30m, is just necessary for maintaining your overall health.

This does need to be said, as many of us have allowed ourselves to believe the "more is better" mentality, as opposed to the "don't maximize or minimize, but instead optimize" mentality.

 

[Gyakuto]

I have meditated every morning for an hour or so, for a long time using Zen susokukan (breath counting) and then ‘letting thoughts drift away’ methods as well as koan practise mainly and started in the Soto tradition before switching to Rinzai. I’ve been on retreats, received instruction and guidance from Roshi and read many books on the subject. I can sincerely say, meditation has had absolutely no effects on me at all! Nothing. When I’ve have had periods of not meditating, I feel no worse or better than when I do. I’ve been told to ‘keep going’ but the practise—>reward—>further practise loop is very hard to sustain when there’s no ‘reward’. I sometimes joke that meditation has no effect on me because I am already enlightened…the fact I’m levitating as I write this, supports that view

Why do I keep going? Because faith in the method is one of the precepts of Zen Buddhism (I hate the word ‘faith’ as it means belief in the absence of evidence ) ‘They’ must know something I don’t! Plus there’s nothing on telly at that time of the morning!

 

[Gyakuto]

What is "moving meditation" and why is it superior? Are the same benefits achieved?

Rinzai Zen Buddhists consider working/moving meditation as ‘better‘ than seated meditation. One could be sweeping a pathway, chopping logs or practising ones sword cutting and one becomes completely immersed in that activity (samadhi or meditative absorption) and as thoughts enter the mind, one doesn’t engage with them or go down the rabbit hole of a narrative (just like in seated mediation) but let’s them drift away.

Why is it thought to be superior? Well, it’s definitely harder and requires more ‘resolve’ than seated meditation but also, in a monastic setting, chopping wood and sweeping and cleaning might be more beneficial to the upkeep of the facilities

 

[Gyakuto]

I meditate sitting all the time, but there are risks people should know about.

Don't sit (meditating, working, etc) for more than 30m, is just necessary for maintaining your overall health.

Like I said, Shaolin seated meditation (da jaw) is actually part of a larger set of routines, including Qigong, mostly because monks sitting around all day get fat and unhealthy. It's a move it or lose it philosophy.

Sitting in zazen too long is bad for you, basically, according to modern medicine. That doesn't mean never do it, but it needs to be done in moderation, like most things. You asked "how long", so my line is just "no more than 30m", especially if you work out too. Wasted gains suck.

For persons with diagnosed psychiatric conditions, meditation should be entered into under ‘professional‘, monitored supervision. Meditation involves a degree of introspection or rather produces the ‘space‘ for introspection and where a psychiatric condition is characterised by say, paranoia, intrusive thoughts or hallucinations etc, meditation might cause deleterious issues.

In certain Zen retreats such as Rohatsu, we meditate for 12- 24 hours a day for a week! It’s very difficult, an extreme practise but not harmful for anyone with ‘normal’ mental and physical health. 30 minutes daily is better than nothing, but is barely enough time to get into the swing of things! A target of 40+ mins a day, punctuated with 5 minutes of kinhin (walking meditation) or maybe some ‘ah-um’ breathing (my preferred practise at the start and halfway through my sessions) is often suggested to serious Zen meditators!

 

[Oily Dragon]

You're the doctor right?

You should pick up this book from MIT if you haven't already. It's a little high brow compared to a lot of other texts on the subject (and many Chan/Zen/Seong masters would probably scoff at anyone needing such a book), but probably one of the best books out there on the subject, written by a neurologist and practitioner. Right up your alley, maybe.

Zen and the Brain: Toward an Understanding of Meditation and Consciousness: 9780262511094: Medicine & Health Science Books @ Amazon.com

Zen and the Brain: Toward an Understanding of Meditation and Consciousness: 9780262511094: Medicine & Health Science Books @ Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

 

[Oily Dragon]

I can sincerely say, meditation has had absolutely no effects on me at all! Nothing. When I’ve have had periods of not meditating, I feel no worse or better than when I do. I’ve been told to ‘keep going’ but the practise—>reward—>further practise loop is very hard to sustain when there’s no ‘reward’. I sometimes joke that meditation has no effect on me because I am already enlightened…the fact I’m levitating as I write this, supports that view

Planned meditation is really just practice. It's just training, like when I run on the treadmill for an hour each day, just so I can easily run anytime, anywhere for any length of time.

It's when you're stuck in traffic far from home, and you start to feel overwhelmed but get that sense of relief overcome that through breath control and mental fluidity, that meditation practice becomes application. And chances are you might not even realize it, if you've been doing it long enough. It's as natural as breathing. But I often get those moments especially when driving, I can say Chan practice has greatly helped my control behind the wheel.

Yeah, I think floating is a good metaphor. En-lighten-ment of the mental load, basically. It makes so many other things easier, even possible.

 

[Gyakuto]

You're the doctor right?

You should pick up this book from MIT if you haven't already. It's a little high brow compared to a lot of other texts on the subject, but probably one of the best books out there on the subject, written by a neurologist and practitioner.

Zen and the Brain: Toward an Understanding of Meditation and Consciousness: 9780262511094: Medicine & Health Science Books @ Amazon.com

Zen and the Brain: Toward an Understanding of Meditation and Consciousness: 9780262511094: Medicine & Health Science Books @ Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

I was a medical doctor but then a neuroscientist for most of my career before giving it all up to watch daytime TV…in my underpants!

That book is great but from about 2010, I think…so it’s out of date. I wish he’d up date it as we have much better neuroscience investigative tools now. But that’d be a lot of work now!

I used to supervise ‘library projects‘ on mediation with some of my undergrad students so they were accessing the most up- to-date science on the subject (they did the leg work for me). There were a couple of interesting points that repeatedly turned up in their work: 1) No particular type of meditation was better than another for ‘brain health’ (a lot of the work is performed on TM and very little on Zen for some reason). Even Abrahamic prayer produced similar effects to seated meditation. 2) Meditation slowed, and a couple of papers suggested reversed, the cortical thinning associated with ageing-related cognitive decline and dementia! But it had to be engaged in for a couple of decades at least for these effects to manifest.…no point in starting when you’re becoming forgetful! Where was I….I’ve forgotten…anyway….

 

[Gyakuto]

I gave this lecture about breathing and other aspects of Budo/Zen to a recent Zenways gathering here in the U.K. Some of it might be interesting to those on this thread.

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1imLlqnO2xuGz4vHqPJd9gqZkrOWa2yw3/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=115361567646908428770&rtpof=true&sd=true

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I was a medical doctor but then a neuroscientist for most of my career before giving it all up to watch daytime TV…in my underpants!

That book is great but from about 2010, I think…so it’s out of date. I wish he’d up date it as we have much better neuroscience investigative tools now. But that’d be a lot of work now!

I used to supervise ‘library projects‘ on mediation with some of my undergrad students so they were accessing the most up- to-date science on the subject (they did the leg work for me). There were a couple of interesting points that repeatedly turned up in their work: 1) No particular type of meditation was better than another for ‘brain health’ (a lot of the work is performed on TM and very little on Zen for some reason). Even Abrahamic prayer produced similar effects to seated meditation. 2) Meditation slowed, and a couple of papers suggested reversed, the cortical thinning associated with ageing-related cognitive decline and dementia! But it had to be engaged in for a couple of decades at least for these effects to manifest.…no point in starting when you’re becoming forgetful! Where was I….I’ve forgotten…anyway….

 

[Oily Dragon]

I was a medical doctor but then a neuroscientist for most of my career before giving it all up to watch daytime TV…in my underpants!

That book is great but from about 2010, I think…so it’s out of date. I wish he’d up date it as we have much better neuroscience investigative tools now. But that’d be a lot of work now!

I used to supervise ‘library projects‘ on mediation with some of my undergrad students so they were accessing the most up- to-date science on the subject (they did the leg work for me). There were a couple of interesting points that repeatedly turned up in their work: 1) No particular type of meditation was better than another for ‘brain health’ (a lot of the work is performed on TM and very little on Zen for some reason). Even Abrahamic prayer produced similar effects to seated meditation. 2) Meditation slowed, and a couple of papers suggested reversed, the cortical thinning associated with ageing-related cognitive decline and dementia! But it had to be engaged in for a couple of decades at least for these effects to manifest.…no point in starting when you’re becoming forgetful! Where was I….I’ve forgotten…anyway….

It's a huge book, like 3 inches thick. TMI.

I read the first few hundred pages, got bored. I learned Kung Fu right after that. Way more practical way to learn about zen when you think about it. Probably why you find it all over.

Watching the new Matrix movie right now, coincidentally. I love this stuff.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When you move aroud, your mind and body can be unified as one unit. Your blood circulate will be good.

Sitting meditation is bad for blood circulation.

I do enough sitting meditation for 8 hours a day on the job. I don't want anymore of that. That's how I got into this high blood pressure mess in the first place. I've converted part of my lunch break into martial arts training.

 

[Damien]

I gave this lecture about breathing and other aspects of Budo/Zen to a recent Zenways gathering here in the U.K. Some of it might be interesting to those on this thread.

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1imLlqnO2xuGz4vHqPJd9gqZkrOWa2yw3/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=115361567646908428770&rtpof=true&sd=true

Sounds interesting, unfortunately it doesn't load for me. Might be because I'm on my mobile

 

[Damien]

I get some seated meditation in a couple of times a week teaching a morning wellness class. We usually end with a short bit of meditation, the only problem is I need to keep an eye on the time, so I rarely get into it!

Sitting down too much is certainly not good for your health, but how many of us will happily sit and watch a film or an hour long TV show? Or regularly drive an hour or more to work?

I think worrying about more than half an hour sitting down is excessive. Just don't spend all day sat down and try to get up at least once an hour to move around. All of those studies are short term responses, people will actually deliberately induce this kind of thing with blood flow restriction training for increased muscle building. As with everything serious health issues can make something unsafe, for most of us, it's fine. The real danger is cumulative sitting e.g. 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for 20 years.

Go meditate for an hour if you want, just go for a walk too, and get a standing desk.

On moving meditation, forms are indeed a great method. Focusing on your movement to get them right at first means a less busy and flitting mind. Once you know it inside and out the brain can switch off and the body does what it needs to. I have found this most noticeable in competition; multiple times I have started a form and the next thing I know I'm finishing it, and I have no idea if I've done it all or done it correctly! I am assured by my friends and the medals that I have!

Deliberate walking can also be a good method of moving meditation, paying close attention to your steps, the shift of balance etc. Anything which focuses your mind and stops it from drifting around as it usually would.

On the flip side, sometimes it is good to be quiet and let your mind wander. At these times you can come up with bright new ideas, solve problems you've been working on, and generally be more productive and inspired than you might otherwise be. Modern life is too full of distraction and both quiet thinking and quiet not thinking have their place.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Maybe we can think of meditation as having short term and long-term benefits. In the short term, it can temporarily clear your mind of outside distractions and relax you in preparation for a specific activity, like an MA class, or maybe before performing brain surgery. It works for me. (In MA practice, not brain surgery.)

A long-term goal may be constantly being in a meditative state, making a personality change in your natural mind set. Maybe this works for monks that have meditated for many hours for many years, but I think this theoretical goal is beyond most of us.

We can exert self-control, not sweat the small stuff, live and let live, and keep a positive attitude with a sense of humor. I think these things will bring most all the long-term benefits of meditation to us in our everyday lives.

 

[Gyakuto]

It's a huge book, like 3 inches thick. TMI.

I read the first few hundred pages, got bored. I learned Kung Fu right after that. Way more practical way to learn about zen when you think about it. Probably why you find it all over.

Watching the new Matrix movie right now, coincidentally. I love this stuff.

It’s great for overhead presses…with Annie’s ‘Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding’ in the other hand!

 

[Gyakuto]

I do enough sitting meditation for 8 hours a day on the job. I don't want anymore of that. That's how I got into this high blood pressure mess in the first place. I've converted part of my lunch break into martial arts training.

Inspiratory muscle training reduces blood pressure and sympathetic activity in hypertensive patients: a randomized controlled trial - PubMed

IMT demonstrates beneficial effects on systolic and diastolic blood pressure as well as autonomic cardiovascular control in hypertensive patients.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Get yourself one of these https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B007CI0ZBC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

…set it up to about 70% restriction (a bit of trial and error) and inhale through it 30 times, 6 days a week!