Mechanics and combat applications of Poon Sao

[wckf92]

Laosao, our Texas Wing Tsun beach retreat is next month, you're more than welcome to come bro. We can train and exchange ideas and have a good time. I'll show you my way, you can show me yours, and we can both learn something. It's a win-win.

More of these should be organized and conducted...maybe Galveston for middle of the country / south; perhaps somewhere on the eastern seaboard...and maybe mid-Cali? That would be cool.

 

[KPM]

Punch, Bong, Taan, Fook, yielding and redirecting energy, striking while controlling, Simultanious attack & defense, all applicable in a fight.

But that's not necessarily Poon Sau, and your premise was that Poon Sau was useful in a fight.

 

[KPM]

I asked: But who strikes like that???

You replied:
Strikes like what? Cutting angles on a punch from the outside? You should be able to punch anywhere from anywhere...

At the 50 second mark you said that if an opponent was doing a swinging double punch from an outside angle then you would counter with a Tan and a Pak .....and that this is how you would end up in a Poon Sau structure/position and start applying things to the fight from there. That seemed to be how you were justifying saying Poon Sau could be used in a fight. Maybe I misunderstood your intent? But who is going to strike like that? Even Wing Chun guys don't commonly strike like that. You certainly won't encounter anything like that from the average guy on the street or even the typical guy from Karate/Kickboxing/Etc sparring.

 

[Martial D]

Punch, Bong, Taan, Fook, yielding and redirecting energy, striking while controlling, Simultanious attack & defense, all applicable in a fight.

In theory I suppose. It just doesn't work the same when your partner is actually trying to hit you.

Don't get me wrong, I do think chi sau training has benifits, but it doesn't (at least in my experience) translate directly into 'fighting'. Remaining rigid and upright with your head on center, in the pocket, leaves you addressing each incoming strike with your hands..which is fine if you are Spiderman I guess.

 

[Punchy]

More of these should be organized and conducted...maybe Galveston for middle of the country / south; perhaps somewhere on the eastern seaboard...and maybe mid-Cali? That would be cool.

I like it. I nominate you to be in charge of getting these organized.

 

[drop bear]

In theory I suppose. It just doesn't work the same when your partner is actually trying to hit you.

Don't get me wrong, I do think chi sau training has benifits, but it doesn't (at least in my experience) translate directly into 'fighting'. Remaining rigid and upright with your head on center, in the pocket, leaves you addressing each incoming strike with your hands..which is fine if you are Spiderman I guess.

There are small segments of fighting where you can use the concepts. For me with grappling with the hand fight to try and take good clinches. Wrestling with punches where I will try to shut down free striking hands by constantly reaching and smothering the arm and where taller fighters reach their hand out john Jones style.

I get smoked by better boxers and wrestlers though. So thinking it is some sort of get out of jail free card is incorrect.

 

[Martial D]

There are small segments of fighting where you can use the concepts. For me with grappling with the hand fight to try and take good clinches. Wrestling with punches where I will try to shut down free striking hands by constantly reaching and smothering the arm and where taller fighters reach their hand out john Jones style.

I get smoked by better boxers and wrestlers though. So thinking it is some sort of get out of jail free card is incorrect.

For me it comes into play mostly while jitzing.

 

[geezer]

I asked: But who strikes like that???

^^^^ If all the stars aligned perfectly, I might! I mean that angled double punch combo is the last part of our "five thunder punches" sequence in Biu Tze, and does come up in our chi-sau practice sometimes.

More to the point is what Bino said about the energy of a "cutting punch". Yeah just a single punch, but this is about training energy. I didn't get Bino saying that you would literally do poon sau when fighting, I thought he meant, that this training was useful for fighting. That's a very different statement!

On the other hand, I disagree that the rolling "steering-wheel" movement is useless. It may not apply to fisticuffs, but it's definitely the best way to deal with the frequent road-rage shootings we have out here. You know, evasive driving!

 

[Bino TWT]

More of these should be organized and conducted...maybe Galveston for middle of the country / south; perhaps somewhere on the eastern seaboard...and maybe mid-Cali? That would be cool.

It is in Galveston.

I asked: But who strikes like that???

You replied:
Strikes like what? Cutting angles on a punch from the outside? You should be able to punch anywhere from anywhere...

At the 50 second mark you said that if an opponent was doing a swinging double punch from an outside angle then you would counter with a Tan and a Pak .....and that this is how you would end up in a Poon Sau structure/position and start applying things to the fight from there. That seemed to be how you were justifying saying Poon Sau could be used in a fight. Maybe I misunderstood your intent? But who is going to strike like that? Even Wing Chun guys don't commonly strike like that. You certainly won't encounter anything like that from the average guy on the street or even the typical guy from Karate/Kickboxing/Etc sparring.

Ideology and theory behind Poon Sao. As opposed to the steering wheel roll....

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's not just a roll...

In training, do you allow your opponent to grab on your wrist? How will you deal with that situation?

 

[wckf92]

In training, do you allow your opponent to grab on your wrist? How will you deal with that situation?

WC has a saying..."when hands are tied up, use your legs" .... so I would do the lift kick to the groin

 

[Bino TWT]

In training, do you allow your opponent to grab on your wrist? How will you deal with that situation?

There are many many techniques to escape single and double wrist locks/grabs. (And elbow, shoulder, and head locks as well) If this is a serious question, I'd be more than happy to make a video explaining some of them. 3 of the most used are from SNT and are in the very first student grade of our curriculum. The 5th student grade is anti-grappling, takedown defense, ground defense, and clinchwork. I'm not sure how rusty Geezer is on the sections, but our Section 2 of the Chum Kiu Chi Sao sections is pretty much all Chin-Na locks and escapes, manipulating joints with the energy of your attacker, and how to free yourself should you get jammed up. Chi Sao sections 1 & 5 deal specifically with the type of hold in this picture. Also, Wckf92 is spot on with that answer as well.

 

[Bino TWT]

I wish my post of actual Chi Sao got as much engagement as this one did lol. Great conversation though guys, nice to see activity in this section of the forum.

 

[geezer]

There are many many techniques to escape single and double wrist locks/grabs. ...I'm not sure how rusty Geezer is on the sections, but our Section 2 of the Chum Kiu Chi Sao sections is pretty much all Chin-Na locks and escapes...

I'm not so rusty that I'd worry too much about this scenario. As you point out, there are a lot of ways to deal with this! And beyond that, if somebody grabs your wrists, WT taught us that they are equally disadvantaged, since when someone grabs your wrist, their hand is just as bound-up as yours! Since we train chi-sau we should, in fact, have an advantage. IMO it's in situations like this that drills like chi-sau and pummeling really pay off.

 

[Bino TWT]

I'm not so rusty that I'd worry too much about this scenario. As you point out, there are a lot of ways to deal with this! And beyond that, if somebody grabs your wrists, WT taught us that they are equally disadvantaged, since when someone grabs your wrist, their hand is just as bound-up as yours! Since we train chi-sau we should, in fact, have an advantage. IMO it's in situations like this that drills like chi-sau and pummeling really pay off.

lol I didn't mean rusty in skill, I meant rusty on the sequence of the sections lol. Don't want you to think I'm calling you a geezer or anything.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are many many techniques to escape single and double wrist locks/grabs.

It's better to prevent a problem from happening than to allow it happens and then try to fix it afterward.

Your opponent grabs on your wrist.

- You think about "escape".
- He thinks about "guide your arm away from his attacking path".

You are already 1 step behind.

IMO, the best way is not to let your opponent to have any chance to grab on your wrist. I see no reason the "grip fight" training should be separate from your "sticky hand" training.

 

[Bino TWT]

It's also better to have a contingency plan. No one enters a fight intending to get hit, although rarely does one not eat a punch. Having the mindset that "I'm not going to let him hit/grab/kick me/take me down" is already setting yourself up for failure, because you aren't prepared (mentally, at least, and possibly training-wise as well) for the inevitable.

"escapes" fall under the principle of simultaneous attack and defense, this actually puts the attacker one step behind me. That's kinda the way things work in this system. When someone grabs me, I am in the advantageous position.

In Chi Sao (or a fight, for that matter), there is always the opportunity to attempt a grab or lock.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"escapes" fall under the principle of simultaneous attack and defense, this actually puts the attacker one step behind me.

Sometime a wrist grab doesn't last very long. You may not even have time to escape it, your opponent already releases that grip.

My concern is When A grabs on B's wrist, B doesn't know why A does that. But A knows exactly why he does that. That's why A has advantage over B. A has a plan. But B just responds to A's plan.

Here is an example.

 

[lansao]

Sometime a wrist grab doesn't last very long. You may not even have time to escape it, your opponent already releases that grip.

My concern is When A grabs on B's wrist, B doesn't know why A does that. But A knows exactly why he does that. That's why A has advantage over B. A has a plan. But B just responds to A's plan.

Here is an example.

Grabbing your opponents wrist offers you no advantage. It’s a bad idea in the first place. You’re limiting your options.

Someone grabs your wrist(s), you have as many options as they have. For every counter a counter.

Obviously you don’t want to let that opponent get to your wrists in the first place but there is a non-zero probability it will happen in the midst of struggle.

 

[lansao]

Sometime a wrist grab doesn't last very long. You may not even have time to escape it, your opponent already releases that grip.

My concern is When A grabs on B's wrist, B doesn't know why A does that. But A knows exactly why he does that. That's why A has advantage over B. A has a plan. But B just responds to A's plan.

Here is an example.

Footwork would have helped the dude on the right avoid that bro hug.