Bad Chi Sao has ruined WC as a fighting art!

[hunschuld]

You have been doing some reading!

Vibrate and Roll are primarily for grappling. We see wing chun as stand up grappling not just striking.

So basics. 3 easy ways to defend throws and joint locks. I drop the hips. If my hips are lower than your hips you will have a hard time throwing me. of course you can sweep etc just staying with basics. next is break the grip. cant be thrown or locked if they cant grip you. Vibrate is the use of short power in a jut, fook, huen, gum, etc to break grip the moment you feel it. I think all wing chun trains or should train short power for striking. Same power different use. Roll. again primarily grappling use . throwing and locking usually depend on the target resisting or fighting the energy. Rolling is you go with the energy and roll it in the general direction it wants to go. The very first move of almost every version of wing chun I have seen after opening the stance is a rolling bong sau. Most mainland dummy forms I have seen have a rolling quan sau in them. It is just accepting and directing incoming force .

You can cycle mun and wu .

 

[Jens]

You have been doing some reading!

Lol Yeah I read a little regarding the 18 energies of Lo Kwai wing chun on wingchunpedia.com

Vibrate is the use of short power in a jut, fook, huen, gum, etc to break grip the moment you feel it. I think all wing chun trains or should train short power for striking. Same power different use. Roll. again primarily grappling use . throwing and locking usually depend on the target resisting or fighting the energy. Rolling is you go with the energy and roll it in the general direction it wants to go. The very first move of almost every version of wing chun I have seen after opening the stance is a rolling bong sau. Most mainland dummy forms I have seen have a rolling quan sau in them. It is just accepting and directing incoming force .

Is it also considered "Vibrate" and "Roll" when using using a quick short explosive jerky type of force as in when applying the push/pull concept? for example applying a quick forward press at the contact point, then taking advantage of the opponent's pushing reaction to pull him off balance? btw this Push/pull concept can also be used in a grappling situation as in judo by pushing in one direction to get the opponent to push back so that you can capitalize on his reaction by pulling him in the opposite direction.

You can cycle mun and wu .

When cycling mun and wu, how does the wu cover similarly to how the rear hand does in the biu jee form mun sau?


Does Lo Kwai Wing Chun have Chi Gerk (sticky legs)?

I imagine your hip usage is probably very similar to this guy's starting at 2:08 into this clip

 

[hunschuld]

Lol Yeah I read a little regarding the 18 energies of Lo Kwai wing chun on wingchunpedia.com



Is it also considered "Vibrate" and "Roll" when using using a quick short explosive jerky type of force as in when applying the push/pull concept? for example applying a quick forward press at the contact point, then taking advantage of the opponent's pushing reaction to pull him off balance? btw this Push/pull concept can also be used in a grappling situation as in judo by pushing in one direction to get the opponent to push back so that you can capitalize on his reaction by pulling him in the opposite direction.

( Yes, many variations but you get it)

When cycling mun and wu, how does the wu cover similarly to how the rear hand does in the biu jee form mun sau?

( In cycling one hand replace the other, like chain punch where one hand drops and comes back replaces )


Does Lo Kwai Wing Chun have Chi Gerk (sticky legs)?

( Yes and No. I have chi gerk in my kung fu because I learned yip man WC Chi Gerk was formalized by some of Yip's students or so the story goes. Lo Kwai has training more like Judo rendorii . We practice throws sweeps trips and how do defend and also practice kicking and defending kicks with the legs in several drills. So different format but accomplishing the same thing)

I imagine your hip usage is probably very similar to this guy's starting at 2:08 into this clip

( yeah I guess. Different things trained in different forms but basically there is a limit to ways you can use your hips and everyone can do the same things just depends on development)

 

[Jens]

Chao Kwai's granddaughter told me her grandfather would like to fix my wing chun. The way I was taught was things were added to my Yip Man wing chun. Chao Sifu was into efficiency so keeping my Yip Man base and adding to it was the fastest way to teach.

What were the major "game changer" aspects of wing chun which Chao sifu added to your yip man wing chun base?

What's your opinion of Alan Orr's "hip usage"? is it in line with yours?

( In cycling one hand replace the other, like chain punch where one hand drops and comes back replaces )

Do you mean the front mun sau hand drops and retracts under so that the rear wu sau hand can go forward to replace it becoming the new mun sau (same cycling as the chain punch)? or Do you mean the rear wu sau hand drops, under cycling forward to become the new mun sau, while the mun sau hand retracts backward to become the new mun sau (the reverse cycling of the chain punch action)?

 

[hunschuld]

NO!, The stance should be shoulder width not wider than the shoulders. Going wider like this lets you do certain things but starts to lock the hips and prevents other things. Everything that you can do with the wide stance you can do with the shoulder width stance however the reverse is not true.

Replacement hands both can be true . The hands are concepts not fixed position. You are always filling space in a circular fashion.

Game changer was the proper use of the lower body and that WC is an internal art not referring to chi or other such mystical stuff but internal meaning the art is based on the proper use of the skeleton. Also learning about misnamed and misunderstood hands. For example tan sau is not a flat hand thrusting out

 

[Jens]

NO!, The stance should be shoulder width not wider than the shoulders. Going wider like this lets you do certain things but starts to lock the hips and prevents other things. Everything that you can do with the wide stance you can do with the shoulder width stance however the reverse is not true.

I completely agree! It also affects the agility of your footwork!

Replacement hands both can be true . The hands are concepts not fixed position. You are always filling space in a circular fashion.

Which of your vulnerable space are you covering with the With the rear wu sau hand?

Also learning about misnamed and misunderstood hands. For example tan sau is not a flat hand thrusting out

Please explain which Wck hands are misnamed or misunderstood? And What’s the correct name and understanding?

Were there concepts and principles in Lo Kwai wck which you didn’t learn in yip man wck?

 

[hunschuld]

I don't want to get into the differences with Yip Man WC. YMWC is blah to great depending on the version. Look at basic stances and you can see the differences

Hand names. 1 example Tan sau. Its not a flat palm or the movement of thrusting out a palm up hand.That is actually a yang palm strike using the Yin Meridian to be technical. Tan Sau is the action of spreading or opening up the opponents center line. So spreading hand

 

[Jens]

Tan Sau is the action of spreading or opening up the opponents center line. So spreading hand

When you say spreading hand, is it spreading the opponent's hand directly to the side to open up his center line? or cutting back to spread thus opening up the opponent's center line (what some mainland wck linages refer to as Tun sau)?

It's funny. I think a long time ago,20 years or so, Steven Leung and I had a conversation about this. It has been said that less than 10 people really got the full WC system from YM Duncan being one.

There has been some controversy as to whether or not Duncan actually learnt directly from Yip Man.

 

[hunschuld]

It can be either. I am not so technical. for me there are always several ways to do something. I don't bother with separate names for the possibilities. I know many do.

I don't know much about Duncan. Was told he had been a private student of YM and the fact that Lo Man Kam's son trained with him leads me to believe its true.

 

[Jens]

Tan Sau is the action of spreading or opening up the opponents center line. So spreading hand

What's your definition or explanation of the Tan Sau Spreading action?

I don't know much about Duncan. Was told he had been a private student of YM and the fact that Lo Man Kam's son trained with him leads me to believe its true.

That's a very good point!

Of all the direct Yip Man students that you've seen, in your opinion who have the correct Hip usage?

 

[wckf92]

There has been some controversy as to whether or not Duncan actually learnt directly from Yip Man.

@Jens where did you find those screenshots about Duncan? I'd like to read more about it. Thanks.

 

[wckf92]

and the fact that Lo Man Kam's son trained with him leads me to believe its true.

Yup. Good point. Another point is that Yip Man told a young Allan Lee to go find Duncan in order to learn from him, etc.

 

[Jens]

@Jens where did you find those screenshots about Duncan? I'd like to read more about it. Thanks.

On Hang Lum Andrew Ma facebook page

Yup. Good point. Another point is that Yip Man told a young Allan Lee to go find Duncan in order to learn from him, etc.

But then again, there is also the story of when Duncan first arrived in NYC in the early 1970's claiming to be Yip Man's private student and Yip Man's disciple Moy Yat refuting those claims. As Moy Yat said he had never heard of Duncan and no-one in the Hong Kong wck community seemed to know whom Duncan was. All Yip Man's disciples were aware of whom Yip Man's private wealthy businessmen students were, since they often times would drive Yip Man around and Yip Man had never mentioned Duncan to any of them. For what it's worth I've been told that the choreography of both Duncan Leung's and Ho Kam Ming's knife sets are identical.

 

[wckf92]

On Hang Lum Andrew Ma facebook page



But then again, there is also the story of when Duncan first arrived in NYC in the early 1970's claiming to be Yip Man's private student and Yip Man's disciple Moy Yat refuting those claims. As Moy Yat said he had never heard of Duncan and no-one in the Hong Kong wck community seemed to know whom Duncan was. All Yip Man's disciples were aware of whom Yip Man's private wealthy businessmen students were, since they often times would drive Yip Man around and Yip Man had never mentioned Duncan to any of them. For what it's worth I've been told that the choreography of both Duncan Leung's and Ho Kam Ming's knife sets are identical.

Thanks for that link @Jens

Interesting point about the identical knife sets. Do you have a link to their two knife sets? I'd be curious to learn more about that.

 

[Jens]

Interesting point about the identical knife sets. Do you have a link to their two knife sets? I'd be curious to learn more about that.

I don't have a link to the Duncan Leung knife set, if you do please post so that we can make a comparison. here is the link to the Ho Kam Ming knife set

 

[hunschuld]

Could say a great deal.
Unfortunate that there still is a great deal of jealousy and conflict. It makes no difference to me who claims what in YMWC but I do question a few things.
The Moy Yat Duncan story had a bit more to it. My first teacher was one of Moy Yat first 7 disciples and was a student of Jiu Wan in HK.
Hawkins made a point in an interview he did with Kung Fu Magazine in the 80's that there were many private students that were unknown to Yips public class students and he believed some were very good. Just because someone was unknown does not mean he was not a direct student.
Duncan did not say his 7 hour a day training was with YM just that he trained that long.
YM made his money from private students and he got paid well. Ho Kam Ming paid a big fee for his WC . The name of the game was those that paid YM extra got more information. If you couldn't pay you did other things with or for him and you got rewarded with information. He usually took someone with him when he taught a private student who would do the hands on training.
Since Lo man Kam was Yip/s nephew or son depending on who you talk too and since he started training with YM in the early 50's (he was the person WSL fought first when he came to test YM) I doubt he would have his son learn from a fake. His WC is pretty good after all.

Knife form is a bit dead isn't it?

 

[wckf92]

I don't have a link to the Duncan Leung knife set, if you do please post so that we can make a comparison. here is the link to the Ho Kam Ming knife set

That's a really long knife form! I wonder if that one conforms to the "12 set" form?

 

[Jens]

@hunschuld is this guy's hip usage in line with the hip usage you learnt from Chao Kwai sifu?

 

[hunschuld]

Looks like Andreas's version of the form. He is using his hip's best use is in the beginning. He could be doing more and could keep a better position.

 

[hunschuld]

That's a really long knife form! I wonder if that one conforms to the "12 set" form?

If you count the section based on the stepping its 8 sections. Its different than the 12 sections but is a fine form. I like Yip Chings and WSL form better but all YM forms are different to some degree. Tradition is that there is only 1 knife man in a family and he gets the 12 sections. Yip Bo Ching was that man for YMWC