Bad Chi Sao has ruined WC as a fighting art!

[Jens]

For example if you are a back leg weight person much of the close range footwork won't work or be usable.

I agree 100%! From my personal experience it's because a back leg weight person is not able to effectively transfer his body mass to generate the necessary forward drive needed to effectively destroy the opponent's root to control his center of gravity.

They reason I asked whether you personally used the type of front step directly down the center that Lo Kam Man did in the clip after the triangle step is because personally I find it's very susceptible to a double or single leg takedown from that angle, so wanted to get your take based on your experience.

The goal of wing chun is to drive in and get close to your opponent. I like the phrase get under their shirt.

Does this also apply to when using Mun Sau? for example, do you generally step forward into the opponent when throwing out a mun sau to engage him?

In a previous post you had said:

Mun sao is an attack asking the other person to intercept your hand. If there is no intercept then your mun strikes them. You only extend because you have something in mind. You are attacking. It doesn't matter if your opponent commits first. They either give you their hand via a block or intercept or they don't and you hit them.

What happens if the opponent does not give you their hand via a block or intercept, but instead remains elusive at close range by their changing footwork angles with “bobing, weaving and slipping to altogether avoid your man sau attempt with simultaneous counter strikes as in how Mike Tyson does it, do you still just hit them by turning your mun sau into strike? or does your mun sau morph into a cover while you simultaneously strike them with your other hand?

 

[wckf92]

do you still just hit them by turning your mun sau into strike?

Mun sau is a strike...or at least that is how I was taught.

 

[Jens]

Mun sau is a strike...or at least that is how I was taught.

I was taught Mun Sau is an un-committed strike

 

[hunschuld]

I agree 100%! From my personal experience it's because a back leg weight person is not able to effectively transfer his body mass to generate the necessary forward drive needed to effectively destroy the opponent's root to control his center of gravity.

They reason I asked whether you personally used the type of front step directly down the center that Lo Kam Man did in the clip after the triangle step is because personally I find it's very susceptible to a double or single leg takedown from that angle, so wanted to get your take based on your experience.

( I agree with you. I look at that stepping as a chasing step to close when the other person is moving away. I think you always have to be cognizant of the threat of the take down in today's world. Part of the WC problem is that most of the old teachers never really fought so have little real world experience and even those that did I doubt ever had to think about a double leg.



Does this also apply to when using Mun Sau? for example, do you generally step forward into the opponent when throwing out a mun sau to engage him?

In a previous post you had said:

What happens if the opponent does not give you their hand via a block or intercept, but instead remains elusive at close range by their changing footwork angles with “bobing, weaving and slipping to altogether avoid your man sau attempt with simultaneous counter strikes as in how Mike Tyson does it, do you still just hit them by turning your mun sau into strike? or does your mun sau morph into a cover while you simultaneously strike them with your other hand?

Mun sao is always a strike. Once my range is reached I attack. I don't care what my opponent is doing. If I move my hands towards you my intention is to strike. In a perfect world if you don't stop my hand it hits you. However I don't always use a Mun sau or an asking hand of any type. I always think of cover and close so your Mun changes to a cover if the person evades instead of giving you a hand. To me all hands morph into one hand. So in pieces Mun , bend at elbow now bong can now change to Kup or lan elbow drops into fook or lap then to palm strike then bui the Mun again while your right is doing that every position change your left adopts the appropriate hand be it to support ,cover an area or attack and attacks are also covers since they will intercept anything incoming through the same area. Also with bob and weave you must get close to gain control of their center of gravity. The goal is not to avoid getting hit, you can't do that. If you fight you will get hit. the goal is to avoid getting hit with the opponents full power. So getting control of their hips you get control of their cog and you have the advantage

 

[Jens]

attacks are also covers since they will intercept anything incoming through the same area.

Do you mean attacks which takes a diagonal line/path to the opponent's centerline, for example from your shoulder to his center-line as in the case with "Mun Sau" to intersect his straight line attack (the Phillip Bayer WSLVT people refer to this as "X-ing" the centerline), rather than directly along the center-line as in a chain punch?

What are some good examples of attacks that are also covers?

Also with bob and weave you must get close to gain control of their center of gravity. The goal is not to avoid getting hit, you can't do that. If you fight you will get hit. the goal is to avoid getting hit with the opponents full power. So getting control of their hips you get control of their cog and you have the advantage

Do you mean driving in with your stance to get your hips underneath the opponent's hips similar to how a how Greco Roman wrestler does to control his opponent's hips and COG prior to setting up a takedown? please explain?

At close range once the "gap" has been closed, do you personally find much use for "arrow stepping", or do you rely more on other types of steps such as shifting steps, circle steps, and triangle steps?

 

[wckf92]

as "X-ing" the centerline), rather than directly along the center-line as in a chain punch?

IME, WC is a cross-the-CL system at its heart. That is how I was taught from day 1. I know that is probably heresy in some WC schools/lineages, but in order to provide the proper covering hands (that are also attacking hands and vice versa), it is important that they continuously cycle and recycle automatically...aka "flowing".
For example: the fist would start slightly off center and then as it moves along its punching trajectory it "intercepts" and "cuts" the CL on its way to the target.

Anyway, kind of difficult to type in words so I'm not sure any of that makes sense...hahaha.

 

[hunschuld]

Do you mean driving in with your stance to get your hips underneath the opponent's hips similar to how a how Greco Roman wrestler does to control his opponent's hips and COG prior to setting up a takedown? please explain?

Very much the same. Receive what comes = Greco bring your body to their body If you go back to the videos I started this thread with you will see they all make the same mistakes that leads to poor fighting ability standing to straight and not using and dropping the hips.. Look at Mike Tyson doing the bob and weave he is down in his hips and when he attacks the power is transferred via his hips.In most wing chun you see locked hips . In Lo Kwai WC we try to never lock the hips. You sink down into your hips when making contact. When looking to answer your question I found Greco body drills and hip usage drills that are very similar to our drills.

At close range once the "gap" has been closed, do you personally find much use for "arrow stepping", or do you rely more on other types of steps such as shifting steps, circle steps, and triangle steps?

When In range I may arrow step it all depends. My goal is to drive through my opponent so I may arrow step between his legs and then ,sweep ,hook, stomp or kick . It all depends on the position we are in. I am not really conscience of what footwork I am using at this point and I have not even done Chi Sao in at least 5 years l let alone sparring so I don't really think and practice. I just do some shadowboxing etc to keep myself in some sort of shape and to not totally forget everything I have learned.

 

[Jens]

Mun sao is always a strike. Once my range is reached I attack. I don't care what my opponent is doing. If I move my hands towards you my intention is to strike. In a perfect world if you don't stop my hand it hits you. However I don't always use a Mun sau or an asking hand of any type. I always think of cover and close so your Mun changes to a cover if the person evades instead of giving you a hand. To me all hands morph into one hand. So in pieces Mun , bend at elbow now bong can now change to Kup or lan elbow drops into fook or lap then to palm strike then bui the Mun again while your right is doing that every position change your left adopts the appropriate hand be it to support ,cover an area or attack and attacks are also covers since they will intercept anything incoming through the same area.

In regards to Mun Sau attacks which are also covers, Do you mean attacks which takes a diagonal line/path to the opponent's centerline, for example from your shoulder to his center-line as in the case with "Mun Sau" to intersect his straight line attack ("X-ing" the centerline), rather than a straight line path directly along the center-line as in a chain punch?

What are some good examples of Mun sau attacks that are also covers?

If you go back to the videos I started this thread with you will see they all make the same mistakes that leads to poor fighting ability standing to straight and not using and dropping the hips.. Look at Mike Tyson doing the bob and weave he is down in his hips and when he attacks the power is transferred via his hips. In most wing chun you see locked hips . In Lo Kwai WC we try to never lock the hips. You sink down into your hips when making contact.

By "not using and dropping the hips", are you referring to bending at your knees to lower your hips, and straightening at the knees to rise the hips?

 

[Jens]

In Lo Kwai WC we try to never lock the hips. You sink down into your hips when making contact.

Does WSL demonstrate a good example of what you meant by "You sink down into your hips" in this clip?

 

[hunschuld]

In regards to Mun Sau attacks which are also covers, Do you mean attacks which takes a diagonal line/path to the opponent's centerline, for example from your shoulder to his center-line as in the case with "Mun Sau" to intersect his straight line attack ("X-ing" the centerline), rather than a straight line path directly along the center-line as in a chain punch?

What are some good examples of Mun sau attacks that are also covers?



By "not using and dropping the hips", are you referring to bending at your knees to lower your hips, and straightening at the knees to rise the hips?

 

[hunschuld]

The idea of cutting across the center line is to intersect with attacks coming at you from as many angles as possible. Sometimes you are looking for an automatic response like a Mun going at the opponents eyes this almost always picks up an auto response as the basic subconscious response is to protect our eyes. . Covering is not so much drawing a response as filling an area of space where you are most vulnerable or recognizing where an attack is most likely to come from based on your movement. Covering can also be used to intercept and smother. In any event your goal is to achieve 2 things at the same time attack and disrupt the opponents COG

Hip usage is different than knee usage although both are usually used together. In the video WSL is dropping lower as he attacks.he bends his knees and thrusts with the hips. There is a reason WSL was considered one of the better fighters and you can see it in very basic chi sau. Knees should always be bent. never ever straight. Hips can be used independent of the knees. Hips open and close and the hip girdle can swing,sink,thrust. Knees are springs and act like shock absorbers but have a very limited range of safe movement so its your hips and not the knees that transfer power

 

[wckf92]

Covering is not so much drawing a response as filling an area of space where you are most vulnerable or recognizing where an attack is most likely to come from based on your movement. Covering can also be used to intercept and smother.

It's strange...because the only lineage that says stuff like this is the Duncan Leung folks... It's nice to see that topic was passed on / exists in Lo Kwai as well.

 

[Jens]

The idea of cutting across the center line is to intersect with attacks coming at you from as many angles as possible. Sometimes you are looking for an automatic response like a Mun going at the opponents eyes this almost always picks up an auto response as the basic subconscious response is to protect our eyes. . Covering is not so much drawing a response as filling an area of space where you are most vulnerable or recognizing where an attack is most likely to come from based on your movement. Covering can also be used to intercept and smother. In any event your goal is to achieve 2 things at the same time attack and disrupt the opponents COG

Are there Mun Sau attacks which also simultaneously fill an area of space where you are most vulnerable or recognizing where an attack is most likely to come from based on your movement?

If so what are some good examples of mun sau attacks which also simultaneously covers your most vulnerable space?

or is Mun sau always used completely independently of covering?

Hip usage is different than knee usage although both are usually used together. In the video WSL is dropping lower as he attacks.he bends his knees and thrusts with the hips. There is a reason WSL was considered one of the better fighters and you can see it in very basic chi sau. Knees should always be bent. never ever straight. Hips can be used independent of the knees. Hips open and close and the hip girdle can swing,sink,thrust. Knees are springs and act like shock absorbers but have a very limited range of safe movement so its your hips and not the knees that transfer power

How are the Hips used independent of the knees when "dropping the hips"? or when "You sink down into your hips"?

Are you referring to the smooth "tucking" and "un-tucking" of the hips for lack of a better term to preserve the mechanical advantages within kinetic linking to efficiently transfer power (kinetic energy) through the Kinetic chain as a a wave force?

By "hips can swing" are you referring to the torquing the hips side to side?

 

[hunschuld]

It's strange...because the only lineage that says stuff like this is the Duncan Leung folks... It's nice to see that topic was passed on / exists in Lo Kwai as well.

It's funny. I think a long time ago,20 years or so, Steven Leung and I had a conversation about this. It has been said that less than 10 people really got the full WC system from YM Duncan being one.

 

[hunschuld]

Are there Mun Sau attacks which also simultaneously fill an area of space where you are most vulnerable or recognizing where an attack is most likely to come from based on your movement?

If so what are some good examples of mun sau attacks which also simultaneously covers your most vulnerable space?

or is Mun sau always used completely independently of covering?




How are the Hips used independent of the knees when "dropping the hips"? or when "You sink down into your hips"?

Are you referring to the smooth "tucking" and "un-tucking" of the hips for lack of a better term to preserve the mechanical advantages within kinetic linking to efficiently transfer power (kinetic energy) through the Kinetic chain as a a wave force?

By "hips can swing" are you referring to the torquing the hips side to side?

Jens we are at a point where while I could show you in a few minutes I really don't have the skill to provide detailed written descriptions.

Asking hand is always done with 2 hands so the rear hand is covering also I don't look at Mun as one thing I see it as a concept. It use depends upon what the other person is doing. a basic boxing guard will call for something different than a wrestling type of stance. So a bui,pak,gum, gann ect all can be asking hand. The constant is ask and attack when your range is reached. .

Hips have their own independent movement. two good non WC places to watch how hips move would be Olympic lifting and football offensive linemen techniques. One of the things that makes a huge difference in the drafting of pro football offensive linemen is hip work and the difference between tight hips and loose hips. Tight hips is always a negative. I think you are on it by the smooth tucking and un-tucking

 

[Jens]

I don't look at Mun as one thing I see it as a concept. It use depends upon what the other person is doing. a basic boxing guard will call for something different than a wrestling type of stance. So a bui,pak,gum, gann ect all can be asking hand. The constant is ask and attack when your range is reached.

Got it! so asking hand is not only the swinging side to side arms technique known as Mun Lo Sau in the Biu Jee form, All wing chun techniques can have Mun Sau energy or be used as an asking hand. When using other wing chun techniques such as bui,pak,gum, gann ect. with the Mun Sau concept, do you always have the rear hand covering in the same manner as in Mun Lo Sau in the Biu Jee form?

Hips have their own independent movement. two good non WC places to watch how hips move would be Olympic lifting and football offensive linemen techniques. I think you are on it by the smooth tucking and un-tucking

I assume you are referring to getting full hip extension as in the "hip pop" in greco roman wrestling/Olympic lifting, as well as "rolling your hips" as in this clip?

 

[hunschuld]

Got it! so asking hand is not only the swinging side to side arms technique known as Mun Lo Sau in the Biu Jee form, All wing chun techniques can have Mun Sau energy or be used as an asking hand. When using other wing chun techniques such as bui,pak,gum, gann ect. with the Mun Sau concept, do you always have the rear hand covering in the same manner as in Mun Lo Sau in the Biu Jee form?

Always the same idea yes. If my Mun is high then the rear hand covers below and you position the rear elbow to cover as well so the rear hand can be lan sau or a wu sao or a bong sau



I assume you are referring to getting full hip extension as in the "hip pop" in greco roman wrestling/Olympic lifting, as well as "rolling your hips" as in this clip?

You got it. Also look at the elbow placement of the block.Elbows in a fist and a half length away from the chest

 

[Jens]

You got it. Also look at the elbow placement of the block.Elbows in a fist and a half length away from the chest

So it's this full hip extension as in the "hip pop" in greco roman wrestling/Olympic lifting, or "rolling your hips" motion in football offensive linemen that you refer to as "dropping the hips" and "You sink down into your hips" in wing chun?

Always the same idea yes. If my Mun is high then the rear hand covers below and you position the rear elbow to cover as well so the rear hand can be lan sau or a wu sao or a bong sau

So in application, the Classical Mun Sao Wu Sau static guard position seen above in yip Man wing chun, should actually take a path from the side to the opponent's center line, cutting across the center line to intersect attacks coming at you, to cover as many angles as possible, rather than just statically pose both your hands directly on the centerline?

 

[hunschuld]

So it's this full hip extension as in the "hip pop" in greco roman wrestling/Olympic lifting, or "rolling your hips" motion in football offensive linemen that you refer to as "dropping the hips" and "You sink down into your hips" in wing chun?

So in application, the Classical Mun Sao Wu Sau static guard position seen above in yip Man wing chun, should actually take a path from the side to the opponent's center line, cutting across the center line to intersect attacks coming at you, to cover as many angles as possible, rather than just statically pose both your hands directly on the centerline?

Yes, these are all examples or proper hip usage and it goes across all different Athletic activities. You brought up Tyson doing the bob and weave. Look at his hips. same thing. It how you bring power and engage the lower body. You can see how difficult it is to throw or take down someone that is using their hips in the way.

Yes, that Mun Wu is just a pose it is not an active fighting guard. Posing that static guard will always put you behind the opponents pace. In Our WC and YM's as well the saying is my opponent moves but I move first. If you pose this Mun you are always moving second. and you have to be faster than your opponent because you have to go from a dead stop and speed up to intercept his motion and since he has already punched before you have even started you have a very hard time intercepting his attack

 

[Jens]

Yes, that Mun Wu is just a pose it is not an active fighting guard. Posing that static guard will always put you behind the opponents pace. In Our WC and YM's as well the saying is my opponent moves but I move first. If you pose this Mun you are always moving second. and you have to be faster than your opponent because you have to go from a dead stop and speed up to intercept his motion and since he has already punched before you have even started you have a very hard time intercepting his attack

Do you ever under cycle the Classical Mun Sao Wu Sau guard position above back and forth along the centerline, so that the Wu Sau hand slightly drops extending into Mun Sao, as the Mun Sau hand retracts and cycles into Wu Sau, alternating back and forth? or Do you strictly only apply it by taking a path from the side to the opponent's center line, cutting across the center line to intersect attacks coming at you, to cover as many angles as possible?

Yes, these are all examples or proper hip usage and it goes across all different Athletic activities. You brought up Tyson doing the bob and weave. Look at his hips. same thing. It how you bring power and engage the lower body. You can see how difficult it is to throw or take down someone that is using their hips in the way.

This hip usage is also very common in the Hakka kung fu systems such as Southern Praying Mantis, Bak Mei Pai, Southern Dragon Style, Fujian White Crane, Hung Ga etc. I believe they use this hip usage to apply their 4 basic powers: Float, Sink, Spit, Swallow. So it would make sense that wing chun also utilizes this hip usage to generate and transfer power following southern kung fu tradition.

Pease explain how these 2 energies of the 18 energies in Lo Kwai Wing chun are applied:
1. zhan=vibrate
2. juan=roll

Does Lo Kwai Wing Chun have Chi Gerk (sticky legs)?