Mc dojo

[Bigshadow]

there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with placing ourselves on the same level as the other professions ... respect as well as financially.

I agree with you... Maybe I didn't articulate very well what I was thinking. Try this... There is an oath of conduct that a doctor has to take. In nearly all cases when you go to the doctor, you can be confident that you are getting the real thing. Same goes for Attorneys. However... In the case of the McDojo, the customer may not be getting what they expect. If the owner/instructor diminishes the art to sell it to the masses (to get record sales and revenue), then in my opinion that is McDojo. On the other hand, if the owner/instructor franchises a chain of dojos that genuinely teaches a particular art and upholds the integrity of the art, then that is not a McDojo, in my opinion.

In my opinion there is confusion between commercial viability and prostitution.

 

[Bigshadow]

Some people actually WANT the watered down version, that is what they are comfortable with. It is still beneficial, it still keeps them active, they have fun doing it and it makes this sport of ours a little more mainstream. Anyone that wants to train harder and spar hard will seek out a place that does that.

That is fine! As long as people are aware of what they are getting. But I have seen many "Sally Soccer Moms" and "Joe Sixpacks" come to a McDojo and think their little boy or girl is going to learn "Self Defense" (that does not work), "Martial Arts" and really just gets a baby sitting class where the kid gets very little instruction because there are way too many kids in the class and the class is only 45 minutes long and is hardly enough for any real training and they close out the class with a game of "dodge ball?" burning up the last 10 to 15 minutes of class.

IMHO that is not what many expect for their money.

 

[Bigshadow]

Cool, But that is rubbish, Ok you lock yourself out of your house, no spare key. So you call a locksmith, cost $ 60 for the service call. When he arrives, it takes him, honestly not even a minute, and charges you another $30 to open the door. $ 90 in total. (true story)

You cannot devalue the service of a professional

and a Professional Instructor is no different.!!!

It is your choice!

Cheers.

I would like to know how many opportunities a locksmith gets to make money on any given day. IMO, I think that a locksmith does not have a steady income, therefore he/she would have to charge an outrageous price for each opportunity to be able to make a living at it. Or, on the other hand, he/she is preying on the customer, like a vulture and we know there are plenty of vultures out there (tow truck service?).

 

[Andrew Green]

That is fine! As long as people are aware of what they are getting. But I have seen many "Sally Soccer Moms" and "Joe Sixpacks" come to a McDojo and think their little boy or girl is going to learn "Self Defense" (that does not work), "Martial Arts" and really just gets a baby sitting class where the kid gets very little instruction because there are way too many kids in the class and the class is only 45 minutes long and is hardly enough for any real training and they close out the class with a game of "dodge ball?" burning up the last 10 to 15 minutes of class.

IMHO that is not what many expect for their money.

Got a problem with Dodgeball? Thats how we usually transition from kids to adult class. Adults vs Kids in a couple rounds of dodgeball.

"Self-defence" is also a funny thing to define what works and what doesn't. There are a lot of people that would say ninjitsu is a silly hobby that has no value in "real" fighting.

It does. More then some other systems, less then others.

So they are learning stuff that could work as self-defence. Most effective stuff and methods out there? No, but thats not the point. Arts that try to sell themselves purely on effectiveness are doomed right from the beginning.

Anybody that takes there training seriously enough will look at more then one source. They will search out and find the class that suits them. But for most people that are training they are right where they want to be, doing what they want to do, paying for what they want to pay for.

Internet forums are not a good place to judge the "main" views on what training should be. They represent a small majority of practitioners that have interests exceeding most of the people that are training. Most people also have a fairly good understanding of what they are actually capable of.

The most confused, "invincible warrior" type of people that I've seen have not been from big commercial schools, but from small groups of "elitists" that think they are above the masses and train in a "traditional" style.

 

[OC Kid]

The critera I use to define a McDojo is this:

The warning signs:
They say they are the best.
They put you under long term contracts with high fees.
They have a lot of belts and charge lot for the testing.
You have to use their uniforms, their gear which they sell at a huge mark up.
I know a guy who ran a McDojo he said it didnt matter what art they wanted to learn..you taught it anf get them under contract. he said also thatt once they get a certain rank then you change the uniform maybe by addinf black pants or top with different patches and charge them for that.
The thing is to continually charge the student for things nickle and dime them w/o provideing them any substance.
Once you start training with them you cant train wiith anyone else.
The school is run by a mastah say a 25 y.o. 10th degree.
They teach a variety of arts everything from karate to jujitsu incl.tai bo.
They have no known linage.
Some claim to be ex special forces..or cia ect

Its not anyone thing but it is a multiple of things.

Most important after all that I wrote is the art is substandard.
Well thats my opinion

 

[bdparsons]

But then the question will be, should martial arts be restricted to those that are willing to train at that higher level? Getting to a higher skill level means pushing people harder, more intense training. Many people don't want to go that level, does that mean they shouldn't be doing anything?

Should "Beer" baseball leauges and flag football leagues be removed as they are "watered down" versions of the "real" sports? Should Cardio Kickboxing be banned because there is no hard sparring and fights?

Some people actually WANT the watered down version, that is what they are comfortable with. It is still beneficial, it still keeps them active, they have fun doing it and it makes this sport of ours a little more mainstream. Anyone that wants to train harder and spar hard will seek out a place that does that.

By all means as a businessperson give the public what they want. As long as you are honest and up front about what you offer and do not mislead others in the expected results of their training (whatever that may be), then have at it.

"What we really teach here are activities that resemble martial arts, but are not to be confused with actual martial arts training. Please understand that the training you will receive does not make you a competent martial artist and you probably don't have a snowball's chance in you-know-where of effectively defending yourself in a real altercation. Are we clear?"

How many times have you heard that stated in a sales presentation?

For my tastes, it's far too easy to gloss over that point for many who offer "martial arts instruction".

Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[MJS]

The PoInT: These commercial schools that teach only tournament play and gymnastic routines should let all involved know that they are not teaching martial arts. While these programs might teach all the things that Andrew spoke of (integrity, focus, and discipline), it is like the stainless steel katana sword. It looks like the real thing and might feel like the real thing but when it comes time to being tested...it is NOT the real thing. This is only an opinion mind you, but it seems to be a tested one. If you take some one who has trained for five years for an hour a day, three days a week at one of these "family" run school businesses and say they had to fight a person who trained every day for four or more hours a day in Muay Thai Boran or Western Boxing... the "family" fighter would more than likely loose unless he brought something in gun metal blue or with the words "cold steel" on the side.

Good point!! And I think that is key when anyone considers joining a school. Watching a class, asking questions, etc., are all very important things if you're going to invest your time and money training there. However, the problem happens when A) the student doesn't ask questions and is clueless about what they're getting into, and B) when the instructor at the school does not disclose what the student will actually be learning.

Mike

 

[Andrew Green]

"What we really teach here are activities that resemble martial arts, but are not to be confused with actual martial arts training. Please understand that the training you will receive does not make you a competent martial artist and you probably don't have a snowball's chance in you-know-where of effectively defending yourself in a real altercation. Are we clear?"

Not seen much advertising have you?

Effectiveness is all relative anyways, and what they do is usually better then nothing.

 

[hammer]

kroh, Great read

lesson cost should probably range much along the lines of a low end gymnastics school or dance studio. A place with strong commercial interests versus combat interests will probably have more students in it and can conceivably charge less.

Actually here in Australia, it is quite the opposite Dance schools tuttion fee's are Double, compared to Martial arts instruction at the top end,And if you have a daughter that dose both jazz and tap it will send ya broke!!

[/QUOTE]

A problem can occour when an instructor / businessman gets a taste of the green ( or whatever every one else's currency looks like) and starts charging more for a service because his students feel trapped. Having put in the time to learn the lessons being offered, those looking to learn a professional rank in the system might feel that unless they stay and pay the higher fees and finish their "martial education," that said time up to that point was wasted. This would be a clear cut indication of McDojoism at it's finest. Not that the instructor couldn't charge for his teaching but to overcharge would be a travesty.

So true, there has to be an affordable, substainable balance with respect to fee's. Per-say this would be one of the primary reason's that when little jonny complete's his contracted term and recive's his black belt he quit's. Obligation over.

.

The hobiest only wants to have martial arts if they need it. Like the "i need it for protection" gun owner. Most will have a .380, .38, or maybe a 9 mm. The protective gun owner is not going to go and buy and HK MP-5 and carry it on a shoulder strap. They have it for what they need it for. What are the HK owners doing with what they have. If you train at a fighting school, why are you training? What are you doing with the skills? Some fight for money...others....they just ...train? Why develop a skill you will never use? Why are the people from the non-McDojo's not signing up in droves to fight for something they believe in?

trick question's lol cool Analogies

One of the martial arts I used to study had a teaching that said, "Strength and Love stand together". A person with love for his fellow man and no capacity to help him is not a usefull member of society. A man with strength and no love is nothing but a thug.

That's cool

So if we as competant fighters and martial artists have all this skill to stop violence...are we no better than the Mcdojo because we don't do anything with what we know?

Well that's based on perception now is it,??

kroh, What is it that you do with your skill as a competant fighter and martial artist to stop violence? What would you like to do?

Cheers.

 

[hammer]

Some of the best comment's I heard from a Mcdojo school operator, was

" he is in the business of sale's and Marketing of martial arts lesson's"

Am- way as a lot to answer for!!

"Students testing cycle is every three months regardless"

"After a student grades/ test ."Upgrade" sell your programs ie, Blackbelt, Master'sclub, leadership , Instructor. elite tranning"

"Multi style based system re-evolving syllabus, with built in merchandise"


"We have a program for you if not we will create one"

"Have you got, have you got"

Cheers.

 

[bdparsons]

Effectiveness is all relative anyways...

If you want to bring my relatives into this we can take it outside! (Wait for me, I'll be out in a few minutes.)

BTW, I read plenty of advertising, but since when is that to be equated with the truth?

Seriously, it all boils down to what your personal goals are for teaching the arts, and chances are the same attitude will be absorbed and projected by your students.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Insitute

 

[Andrew Green]

BTW, I read plenty of advertising, but since when is that to be equated with the truth?

Exactly, so why should we expect any different from martial arts schools?

 

[bdparsons]

Exactly, so why should we expect any different from martial arts schools?

Gee, I dunno... must be that integrity thing that keeps raising its ugly head.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[kroh]

Hey there Hammer! Thanks for the high praise.

As for what I have done...When I was 19 I joined the United States Army and bounced from place to place and fight to fight ( not bar fights, service to my country stuff) hoping that I was doing the right thing. I felt it would have been a waste to train for the time that I had up to that point and not done anything with the skill. Some of the spherical thinking (thinking of a problem in totalities and possibilities rather than this is the problem, what are we going to do about it) that was taught in the systems I did while growing up made me approach situations that I faced while in service differently than some of my peers and I excelled. I wasn't the best soldier in the troop...but I tried very hard to be .

Anyways, now that I am out of the service (my high time during my service came during the Clinton Administration when all they did was cut military funding and we had to beg to get bullets to train with. Once I got whif of that it was time to run for my life.) I like to analogize my training to a finely crafted sword. I gained experience in the Japanese arts untill I was 21 and then learned modern warfare tactics in my job. On the side when I had the time I took to arts like gung fu and I spent a year learning Kali from an army friend from the Philipines (he didn't call it Kali but in a nut shell that's what it was). Now I train to "keep the sword sharp and polished." If I went to "Al Bagadonuts School of Kenpo Self Defense, Juijitsoo, and Cafe" I feel like it would be like puting that blade on the wall to rust and collect dust as I wouldn't be training to the standards that I learned when I was younger. The sword needs to stay sharp because it has value and you never know when you might need it again. Luckily I found the school where I am now that teaches the only thing you earn is the knowledge you take with you and the most important lesson...

...ALL EGOS MUST BE CHECKED AT THE DOOR...

I also take my time and my talents and teach the next generation ( kids classes ) at the school where I train. I never lead them on. I am only a lowly little junior instructor but when I have my group, I tell them that certain things are for play ( such as light sparring and if they want to compete) and certain things are not (I personally believe that children should not be shown a complete martial arts system before the age of 18 and in some cases should waite untill they are twenty one. A good kickboxing program, grappling program, MMA program, or chambara program can do the same thing for a child as other sports. Then if they are still interested later they can come into the real fighting arts. There is no reason a child should learn things like eye striking/gouging or how to twist persons finger untill the thing snaps and you can better control them... time for all that if they choose later). I like teaching and being exposed to children because I can show them what two way respect is and also they can remind me what it was like to be a kid and hope that everything was just going to be "all good." That being said... A few people have asked me if I would ever open up my own school to which the answer was a resounding no. I just want to train and don't care for the politics and verbal sparring that I see my instructor go through with others on a day to day basis ( I have nominated the man for sainthood but have yet to hear anything on the application.)

Like I said before, since this is all opinion it really doesn't matter in the long run because disreputable jerks are still going to do what they are going to do and honest instructors will do the same. Those that fall prey to one or fall under the graces of the other are on one side of luck or the other.

But it does feel good to talk about and get it out into the open...

Thank you for the opportunity...

Regards,
Walt

 

[terryl965]

The critera I use to define a McDojo is this:

The warning signs:
They say they are the best.
They put you under long term contracts with high fees.
They have a lot of belts and charge lot for the testing.
You have to use their uniforms, their gear which they sell at a huge mark up.
I know a guy who ran a McDojo he said it didnt matter what art they wanted to learn..you taught it anf get them under contract. he said also thatt once they get a certain rank then you change the uniform maybe by addinf black pants or top with different patches and charge them for that.
The thing is to continually charge the student for things nickle and dime them w/o provideing them any substance.
Once you start training with them you cant train wiith anyone else.
The school is run by a mastah say a 25 y.o. 10th degree.
They teach a variety of arts everything from karate to jujitsu incl.tai bo.
They have no known linage.
Some claim to be ex special forces..or cia ect

Its not anyone thing but it is a multiple of things.

Most important after all that I wrote is the art is substandard.
Well thats my opinion

OC Kid I agree with everything you posted except being number one or the best If you do not believe your one of the best how can you be one of the best

 

[hammer]

kroh,

Like I said, I enjoyed reading your first post. By replying to your post I wanted to provoke and or encourage you to say what was really going on. Kroh , there was a strong sense of sincerity in your response, an analogies that I wish to Adopt and share with my students, an enjoyable read.

Thank you.


Cheers
Hammer

 

[Bigshadow]

Got a problem with Dodgeball? Thats how we usually transition from kids to adult class. Adults vs Kids in a couple rounds of dodgeball.

No not really, it is fun. Just the school that I personally sent my son to, did that. It is what I consider a McDojo. So I did include it in my list. It was clearly NOT what I expected.

"Self-defence" is also a funny thing to define what works and what doesn't.

Well, I venture to say no matter the martial art style, if you saw what I saw, I am sure you would agree. What I saw them passing students for doing for self defense was not correct. It was clear. Not that the technique they were using was wrong, just they passed them doing the technique incorrectly.

There are a lot of people that would say ninjitsu is a silly hobby that has no value in "real" fighting.

Maybe so, good thing I train in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu or what some MAY call NinjUtsu. Anyway, I was not being judgemental of the style of MA. However, I can see you have a disdain for NinjItsu.

It does. More then some other systems, less then others.

I don't know anything about Ninjitsu, so I cannot comment.

So they are learning stuff that could work as self-defence. Most effective stuff and methods out there? No, but thats not the point. Arts that try to sell themselves purely on effectiveness are doomed right from the beginning.

Dude, this isn't about my art is better than your art.

Anybody that takes there training seriously enough ...<snip> But for most people that are training they are right where they want to be, doing what they want to do, paying for what they want to pay for.

Yes, I agree. The key word "seriously"

The most confused, "invincible warrior" type of people that I've seen have not been from big commercial schools, but from small groups of "elitists" that think they are above the masses and train in a "traditional" style.

Again... Dude, this isn't about my art is better than your art. Your understanding of my art is about as much as mine of yours. So let's not make confused sweeping assertions and assigning rediculous labels to people.

 

[Andrew Green]

None of my comments where directed at your art, or my art. But arts in general. The simple truth is that EVERYONE claims effectiveness, and not one of them is most effective.

The new person coming into your school really isn't going to be impressed by how effective you say your stuff is compared to everyone elses. Styles that sell themselves based on primarily on effectiveness generally do not get big schools.

And yes, I have seen much nonsense taught as "self-defence", often taught be respected teachers in respected styles with respected lineages. But does that matter? Not that much, that isn't why most people are there.

 

[Bigshadow]

OC Kid I agree with everything you posted except being number one or the best If you do not believe your one of the best how can you be one of the best

Good point! Why would you spend your hard earned cash for something you are not convinced is the best for you or another words... "You don't believe in" ?

 

[Bigshadow]

None of my comments where directed at your art, or my art. But arts in general. The simple truth is that EVERYONE claims effectiveness, and not one of them is most effective.

The new person coming into your school really isn't going to be impressed by how effective you say your stuff is compared to everyone elses. Styles that sell themselves based on primarily on effectiveness generally do not get big schools.

And yes, I have seen much nonsense taught as "self-defence", often taught be respected teachers in respected styles with respected lineages. But does that matter? Not that much, that isn't why most people are there.

I agree. The truely committed people are definitely few in comparison to the masses for whom it is simply a hobby of sorts.