What has changed for you as you've trained?

[Gerry Seymour]

The door guarding technique should be a complete throwing category techniques along with many support categories techniques.

For example, if hip throw is your door guarding move, you should be good on all hip throw moves in order to cover all situations. You should also be good in support categories when your opponent tries to set out of your hip throw.

- leg block,
- horse back kick,
- shin bite,
- scoop kick,
- knee lift,
- embracing throw,
- ...

or resist your throw:

- inner hook,
- single leg,
- double legs,
- leg spring,
- ...

In other words, your door guarding throw is your general. You will need many soldiers to support it.

Okay, that makes more sense. It's just the one thing you're probably better at than other folks. Better at executing, better at setting up, better at defending from counters, etc.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The4 same technique that applies on different situations may be called different techniques.

For example the basic wrist lock.

1. You apply downward pressure.
2. If your opponent raises his elbow, you apply horizontal pressure.
3. If your opponent turns his body, you apply pulling pressure.

1, 2, 3 all belong to the wrist lock category. Since the force vector that you apply can be different, it can be called as 3 different wrist locks.

I think Michael's point is that he (and I have the same view) sees that as too many categories. It probably has to do with what we're used to. I can show you 8-10 variations of a basic wrist lock that I consider to all be the same technique. Those different vectors are just corrections for the input received.

It's probably just a preference thing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's probably just a preference thing.

I don't make that decision. My Chinese wrestling system does. Old Chinese saying said, "There are 360 major Chinese wrestling throws. The minor Chinese wrestling throw can be as many as the number of hair on a cow's body."

For example, in Chinese wrestling, the single leg can be:

1. 扣 (Kou) - Right hand push your opponent's right shoulder, left hand pull his outside leading right leg.
2. 掏 (Tao) - Right forearm push your opponent's left upper arm, left hand pull his inside leading left leg.
3. 错 (Cuo) - Right hand push your opponent's neck to your left, left hand push his leading right leg to your right.
4. ...

Since 1, 2, 3 all require different set up, it's called different techniques in the same category.

 

[Flying Crane]

The4 same technique that applies on different situations may be called different techniques.

For example the basic wrist lock.

1. You apply downward pressure.
2. If your opponent raises his elbow, you apply horizontal pressure.
3. If your opponent turns his body, you apply pulling pressure.

1, 2, 3 all belong to the wrist lock category. Since the force vector that you apply can be different, it can be called as 3 different wrist locks.

It can be. I don’t think it should be. That’s simply my opinion.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't make that decision. My Chinese wrestling system does. Old Chinese saying said, "There are 360 major Chinese wrestling throws. The minor Chinese wrestling throw can be as many as the number of hair on a cow's body."

I think people ought to take ownership of what they are doing. We can respect the past while making adjustments when we recognize a better way.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think people ought to take ownership of what they are doing. We can respect the past while making adjustments when we recognize a better way.

Agree! Traditional is traditional. It's still not mine yet.

I have combined the following categories into 1 category.

- horizontal scoop,
- vertical upward scoop,
- 45 degree upward scoop.

I also have expanded the single leg category into more than the traditional has.

 

[Xue Sheng]

What has changed for you as you've trained?

Well, other than getting much MUCH older (we are talking close to 50 years of this stuff now) and having injuries and health issues that slowed me down. I do not care as much about being impressing anyone, and I appear to have become much more interested in detail, minute detail.

 

[Buka]

The "door guarding" term throws me off as I've spent a lot of hours over the years stationed at doors. Some, in serious and dangerous circumstances, others as a door man in various nightclubs.

 

[Xue Sheng]

"door guarding"

Been there, done that, don't want to do it no more

 

[JR 137]

Your leg may do exactly the same move, but since your hands contact points can be difference, this make different throws and require different set up.

Let's use hip throw for example. Your arm can:

1. wrap around your opponent's waist.
2. under hook his shoulder.
3. over hook his shoulder.
4. lock his head.
5. push behind his head.
6. lift his back belt.
7. wrap his arm.
8. push up under his chin while his back touch your back.

This already make 8 different hip throws.

There are 62 different categories of throw (only 11 categories are shown below) such as:

1. 35 different foot sweep.
2. 32 different leg block.
3. 15 different single leg.
4. 12 different horizontal foot scoop.
5. 9 different upward foot scoop.
6. 9 different leg spring.
7. 9 different shoulder throw.
8. 8 different hip throw.
9. 7 different front cut.
10. 7 different inner hook.
11. 4 different knife hook.
12. ...

My friend told me that someone in China wrote a book of "81 different ways to do single leg". I still have not found that book yet. But I can come up at least 15 different ways to do "single leg".

Along the lines of what others are saying, “81 different ways to do single leg” isn’t 81 different throws (or whatever you’d consider single leg to be; I’d consider it a takedown). It’s 1 throw 81 different ways. Or better yet, it’s 81 variations of 1 throw.

If you have 26 letters and 100 fonts, you don’t have 5200 letters (don’t forget uppercase and lowercase). You’ve got 26 letters that can be done that can each be done 200 ways (remember uppercase and lowercase again).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

it’s 81 variations of 1 throw.

We may use different terms, but we mean exactly the same thing.

- 81 techniques within 1 throw category.
- 81 variations of 1 throw.

To me, a throw category is an abstract throw principle. It can map into many concrete throw techniques.

 

[Buka]

Been there, done that, don't want to do it no more

I still do it twice a week. It sucks like it always did. At least it isn't boring.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I still do it twice a week. It sucks like it always did. At least it isn't boring.

Did it at a hospital with a mental health and detox unit.... had to be there to keep them from running....boy-o-boy that was fun...not....in 90 days I had 60 confrontations

 

[thanson02]

Did it at a hospital with a mental health and detox unit.... had to be there to keep them from running....boy-o-boy that was fun...not....in 90 days I had 60 confrontations

That sucks. Behavioral health and detox is never fun............

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We may use different terms, but we mean exactly the same thing.

- 81 techniques within 1 throw category.
- 81 variations of 1 throw.

To me, a throw category is an abstract throw principle. It can map into many concrete throw techniques.

All categorization - be it yours or mine - is arbitrary and debatable, anyway. I don't like the categorization you use, but that's just because it's not what I'm used to. I wouldn't expect you to like my categorization any better.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

It change me a lot over the years and i learn a lot i learn the Black Belt Principles like modesty courtesy integrity self control perseverance and indomitable spirit also i learn how to teach children and adult also i learn about opposite andcreverse all the primciples web of knowledge and the Basic of my karate i also learn abou the what if to this technique and how it relates etc etc

I always wanted to do karate since i was a kid and i did taekwondo i was only yello then shotokan high orange then kenpo i was 3rd brown

I started 35 years ago to real concentrate on my Martial Art when i started to joined karate and it was awesome i so love it that i wanted to teach karate so i told my Sifu i wanted to joined swat class so i did i started teaching at orange belt and know im a assistant instructor

 

[Gweilo]

I guess I am going to shortly find out, Am I passed it?, just turned 49, I have believed in everything I have been taught, but just recently my belief in what I have been taught has been questioned. 3 years ago I started training in a controversial art called systema, I have seen **** videos, of on youtube and questionable material from said teachers online, this past week 2 IFC fighters have mocked said art, and issued a challenge to film a Systema practitioner in a full contact session with one of them, I have accepted said challenge and agreed to have the result filmed on their youtube channel, the date is 6th June, the youtube channel is perfect fight. So shortly I will find out, Am I past it, personally I think I am better than I have ever been, will post the results regardless.

 

[Buka]

I guess I am going to shortly find out, Am I passed it?, just turned 49, I have believed in everything I have been taught, but just recently my belief in what I have been taught has been questioned. 3 years ago I started training in a controversial art called systema, I have seen **** videos, of on youtube and questionable material from said teachers online, this past week 2 IFC fighters have mocked said art, and issued a challenge to film a Systema practitioner in a full contact session with one of them, I have accepted said challenge and agreed to have the result filmed on their youtube channel, the date is 6th June, the youtube channel is perfect fight. So shortly I will find out, Am I past it, personally I think I am better than I have ever been, will post the results regardless.

Best of luck with all of that, bro, stay strong.

I think it's always best to have an open mind and at the same time not give a rat's ash about what anybody else thinks of what you do and love.

And what you said "personally I think I am better than I have ever been" rock on, brother, rock on.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If someone challenges me, when I

1. was young, I would fight him for 1 round such as if I can take him down within 1 minutes, I won, otherwise he won. I wanted to prove my offense ability.
2. am no longer young, I will also fight him for 1 round such as if he can take me down within 1 minutes, he wins, otherwise I win. I want to prove my defense ability.

IMO, 2 is much more friendly than 1. I only have to play defense and I don't have to play offense. Whether I win or the challenger wins, we can still live happy ever after with no bad feeling.

 

[JP3]

I still do it twice a week. It sucks like it always did. At least it isn't boring.

OK, I've got to ask where, since we're planning a trip to Maui next year. I promise not to get Too out of line at the door you guard 2x/week, but I need to know which one it is.

Personally, I stopped the door work (bouncing, cooler, security... whatever ya want to call it) when I shifted out of undergrad and went into the graduate level stuff. Just didn't go together time-wise, all that staying up real late.

As to the current direction of the discussion, I'd sort of agree with Gerry... preference. For me, I prefer to have simpler nomenclature, with description of vectors and types to demo variations. For me, a hip throw is a hip throw, the difference is how far "in" you go with the lead hip, i.e. O-goshi vs. uki-goshi, like that. The hand placement is just how I attach myself to the partner, doesn't matter to the principles which are driving the throw. In theory, I "should" be able to execute the throw abased on my body position vs. the partner/opponent's, even if I don't have a hand/arm on/attached to them.

It seems odd to me that a straight punch, when directed at the face, could, or should, be named differently than one where the sternum or solar plexus is the target. Straight punch is straight punch.