What has changed for you as you've trained?

[Kung Fu Wang]

When I get older, I like to ask my MA friends, "What's your door guarding move that you have developed?" We train MA so we can do at least one thing better than others. What's that "one thing"?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When I get older, I like to ask my MA friends, "What's your door guarding move that you have developed?" We train MA so we can do at least one thing better than others. What's that "one thing"?

I still don't quite get this concept, John. I don't have a "door guarding move". I have a range of options I can use better than others I train with, but I don't know of any one thing (other than maybe a jab or a cover-cross combo) that adapts to enough situations I'd depend upon it that much.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I still don't quite get this concept, John. I don't have a "door guarding move". I have a range of options I can use better than others I train with, but I don't know of any one thing (other than maybe a jab or a cover-cross combo) that adapts to enough situations I'd depend upon it that much.

When someone said, "If you use move X, I'm not going to spar/wrestle with you." That move X is your "door guarding move".

Through our MA lifetime training, we try to develop some (or at least 1) of those moves. We may train many soldiers (general skill). But we need to train at least 1 general (special skill).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When someone said, "If you use move X, I'm not going to spar/wrestle with you." That move X is your "door guarding move".

Through our MA lifetime training, we try to develop some (or at least 1) of those moves. We may train many soldiers (general skill). But we need to train at least 1 general (special skill).

I can't think of anything anyone would say that about with me, except things they don't want to play with (someone not trained against kicks) or because it hurts (some joint locks) or is a higher risk of injury (some joint locks). I have a few moves I graduate toward more than others, but that varies depending what the other person gives me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can't think of anything anyone would say that about with me, except things they don't want to play with (someone not trained against kicks) or because it hurts (some joint locks) or is a higher risk of injury (some joint locks). I have a few moves I graduate toward more than others, but that varies depending what the other person gives me.

One day when you tell your students, "After you have learned skill X from me, you can leave and find yourself another teacher". That skill X will be your door guarding move.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

One day when you tell your students, "After you have learned skill X from me, you can leave and find yourself another teacher". That skill X will be your door guarding move.

I can't think of any move I'd say that about. I'm not that focused. If they learned everything I know about any one move, I'd still have tons more to teach.

I just don't get the concept of having a single thing that's that important to my training and teaching, much less to my fighting skill. It all works together.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can't think of any move I'd say that about. I'm not that focused. If they learned everything I know about any one move, I'd still have tons more to teach.

I just don't get the concept of having a single thing that's that important to my training and teaching, much less to my fighting skill. It all works together.

You have not decided what your want to focus on, or you have decided that you don't want to focus on anything special?

IMO, life time is too short trying to be good on everything. If I can just do 1 thing better than others, I will be happy.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You have not decided what your want to focus on, or you have decided that you don't want to focus on anything special?

IMO, life time is too short trying to be good on everything. If I can just do 1 thing better than others, I will be happy.

I enjoy training a range. I don't see any real reason to focus on just one technique that way. It doesn't seem utilitarian, or fun.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I enjoy training a range. I don't see any real reason to focus on just one technique that way. It doesn't seem utilitarian, or fun.

There are over 300 throws (I can name at least 230). There is no way that we can train all those throws. The approach to master just a few had been used even during the ancient time.

 

[_Simon_]

When I get older, I like to ask my MA friends, "What's your door guarding move that you have developed?" We train MA so we can do at least one thing better than others. What's that "one thing"?

I've got a pretty swish Pinan 4 kata, but no one's asked me to not use it on them .

I always used to do a fake I really worked on getting good at in sparring that worked every time, lift the knee high to the side to look as though I'm doing a round kick to the head, they raise their guard, I drop it quickly and two or three punches to the stomach. I remember someone said to me jokingly after doing that, "Stop doing that!!!"

And my jumping spinning back kick which I worked hard at developing always caught my opponent, I hid it well and performed it rather quickly.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are over 300 throws (I can name at least 230). There is no way that we can train all those throws. The approach to master just a few had been used even during the ancient time.

Depending how you count them, I practice something between 30 and 100 throws (what we call "Leg Sweep" covers about 5 different Judo techniques). Of those, 10 are on my go-to list, and the others are either gap-fillers or serve to train principles. This is where my disconnect is with your concept. Why should I drop 9 of those 10 in priority and focus only on one? One throw is only going to cover a very small set of situations (except maybe a single-leg, if you prefer ground fighting). 10 can cover a much wider range. There's a point of diminishing return in training, and over-focusing on a single technique is too limiting. If I get 2% better each year on that one technique, I'm a less able fighter than if I get 1% better on 10 different techniques and am more adaptable.

 

[dvcochran]

Depending how you count them, I practice something between 30 and 100 throws (what we call "Leg Sweep" covers about 5 different Judo techniques). Of those, 10 are on my go-to list, and the others are either gap-fillers or serve to train principles. This is where my disconnect is with your concept. Why should I drop 9 of those 10 in priority and focus only on one? One throw is only going to cover a very small set of situations (except maybe a single-leg, if you prefer ground fighting). 10 can cover a much wider range. There's a point of diminishing return in training, and over-focusing on a single technique is too limiting. If I get 2% better each year on that one technique, I'm a less able fighter than if I get 1% better on 10 different techniques and am more adaptable.

Agree. I think there would be diminishing return in trying to learn/remember 300, or even 200 techniques.

 

[Flying Crane]

Agree. I think there would be diminishing return in trying to learn/remember 300, or even 200 techniques.

My suspicion is that there are not really that many throws. I suspect a whole lot of them are not so different, but are variations on a smaller number of common throws.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My suspicion is that there are not really that many throws. I suspect a whole lot of them are not so different, but are variations on a smaller number of common throws.

Your leg may do exactly the same move, but since your hands contact points can be difference, this make different throws and require different set up.

Let's use hip throw for example. Your arm can:

1. wrap around your opponent's waist.
2. under hook his shoulder.
3. over hook his shoulder.
4. lock his head.
5. push behind his head.
6. lift his back belt.
7. wrap his arm.
8. push up under his chin while his back touch your back.

This already make 8 different hip throws.

There are 62 different categories of throw (only 11 categories are shown below) such as:

1. 35 different foot sweep.
2. 32 different leg block.
3. 15 different single leg.
4. 12 different horizontal foot scoop.
5. 9 different upward foot scoop.
6. 9 different leg spring.
7. 9 different shoulder throw.
8. 8 different hip throw.
9. 7 different front cut.
10. 7 different inner hook.
11. 4 different knife hook.
12. ...

My friend told me that someone in China wrote a book of "81 different ways to do single leg". I still have not found that book yet. But I can come up at least 15 different ways to do "single leg".

 

[thanson02]

How about you? Where are you now, compared to where you were? What do you want as a martial artist now, compared to what you wanted then?

When I first started MA in the mid-90s, I was mainly concerned with not being bullied in school. I took TKD because it was the only thing available in my area.

Today, I work hospital security and I teach Hwa Rang Do part time when I can to my son and other people. A lot changed in 20-25 years.........

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My suspicion is that there are not really that many throws. I suspect a whole lot of them are not so different, but are variations on a smaller number of common throws.

Defining the borders of a technique is always iffy. I think Judo has too many different names (because that's not what I'm used to now). In fact, I'd put NGA's first two wrist locks together and call them one technique if I wasn't already used to them being different names. Some Japanese arts seem to classify a technique by direction, so a throw to the front is a different technique from a throw to the back, even if it appears to be the same throw. I've seen some that seem to include the direction of the attack, as well, which starts multiplying the number of techniques.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Your leg may do exactly the same move, but since your hands contact points can be difference, this make different throws and require different set up.

Let's use hip throw for example. Your arm can:

1. wrap around your opponent's waist.
2. under hook his shoulder.
3. over hook his shoulder.
4. lock his head.
5. push behind his head.
6. lift his back belt.
7. wrap his arm.
8. push up under his chin while his back touch your back.

This already make 8 different hip throws.

There are 62 different categories of throw (only 11 categories are shown below) such as:

1. 35 different foot sweep.
2. 32 different leg block.
3. 15 different single leg.
4. 12 different horizontal foot scoop.
5. 9 different upward foot scoop.
6. 9 different leg spring.
7. 9 different shoulder throw.
8. 8 different hip throw.
9. 7 different front cut.
10. 7 different inner hook.
11. 4 different knife hook.
12. ...

My friend told me that someone in China wrote a book of "81 different ways to do single leg". I still have not found that book yet. But I can come up at least 15 different ways to do "single leg".

I think that's variations on the throws ("applications" in the NGA vocabulary), not different throws. But that's because that's how I learned to classify them. So when you say one technique as a door-guarding technique, you mean something like just one of those 8 hip throws? That's way too limited to be dependable on its own. I could see someone getting so good at setting up a hip throw they can pull it off in a really wide range of situations, but limiting it to an underhook hip throw (#2 on your list) dramatically reduces the situations where it's really a good choice.

 

[Flying Crane]

Your leg may do exactly the same move, but since your hands contact points can be difference, this make different throws and require different set up.

Let's use hip throw for example. Your arm can:

1. wrap around your opponent's waist.
2. under hook his shoulder.
3. over hook his shoulder.
4. lock his head.
5. push behind his head.
6. lift his back belt.
7. wrap his arm.
8. push up under his chin while his back touch your back.

This already make 8 different hip throws.

There are 62 different categories of throw (only 11 categories are shown below) such as:

1. 35 different foot sweep.
2. 32 different leg block.
3. 15 different single leg.
4. 12 different horizontal foot scoop.
5. 9 different upward foot scoop.
6. 9 different leg spring.
7. 9 different shoulder throw.
8. 8 different hip throw.
9. 7 different front cut.
10. 7 different inner hook.
11. 4 different knife hook.
12. ...

My friend told me that someone in China wrote a book of "81 different ways to do single leg". I still have not found that book yet. But I can come up at least 15 different ways to do "single leg".

I would call your hip throw example one technique but with variations.

Yang jwing-Ming wrote a couple books on chin-na. They contain dozens of locking techniques. But after reading those books I realized the same thing: there are a smaller number of fundamental locking techniques, but many variations.

I think it is a disservice to a student to present the material as different techniques. It can make it overwhelming when it does not need to be. Learn the fundamental throw/lock/whatever, then learn the variations. It is one chunk of knowledge, easier to remember than if you separate it all out as different techniques, each with its own name.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So when you say one technique as a door-guarding technique, you mean something like just one of those 8 hip throws? That's way too limited to be dependable on its own.

The door guarding technique should be a complete throwing category techniques along with many support categories techniques.

For example, if hip throw is your door guarding move, you should be good on all hip throw moves in order to cover all situations. You should also be good in support categories when your opponent tries to set out of your hip throw.

- leg block,
- horse back kick,
- shin bite,
- scoop kick,
- knee lift,
- embracing throw,
- ...

or resist your throw:

- inner hook,
- single leg,
- double legs,
- leg spring,
- ...

In other words, your door guarding throw is your general. You will need many soldiers to support it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yang jwing-Ming wrote a couple books on chin-na. They contain dozens of locking techniques. But after reading those books I realized the same thing: there are a smaller number of fundamental locking techniques, but many variations.

The4 same technique that applies on different situations may be called different techniques.

For example the basic wrist lock.

1. You apply downward pressure.
2. If your opponent raises his elbow, you apply horizontal pressure.
3. If your opponent turns his body, you apply pulling pressure.

1, 2, 3 all belong to the wrist lock category. Since the force vector that you apply can be different, it can be called as 3 different wrist locks.