Mc dojo

[Shorin-ryu Sensei]

Here are my thoughts....


There are many respectable ways to make money. I understand what these instructors who have posted are saying (we have to make money). Yes, I agree, so do I. But if it is going to demean and diminish the very art you are trying to teach by commercializing it, then maybe it was not meant to be that way. True seekers will find you. Maybe you will not be able to do that full time as a job. Maybe have to work a full-time job like other people and teach in the spare time.

Those are some of my thoughts.

Best regards,
David

The perhaps other professionals, i.e., doctors, accountants, etc., should have other full-time jobs and practice what they spent years learning in their collective spare time. Most of us who teach have spent over 25 years learning and perfecting our training and trade, and are on par with other "professional" occupations and should be paid accordingly. If you ever find a lawyer who charges you $6.50 an hour let me know because it'll be the most amazing thing in the world. Point: doctors, lawyers, etc. have made a large investment in their professions, as we have as martial artists/instructors ........ there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with placing ourselves on the same level as the other professions ... respect as well as financially.

 

[Aegis]

Yes, a lawyer who charges $6.50 an hour would be quite impressive. But would you be willing to pay a lawyer his regular fee if he was also dealing with 30 other people at the exact same time?

I've heard many comparisons made between, say, martial arts lesson and music lessons, where it is possible that you will pay £15 for a one-hour music lesson, so why make a fuss about paying the same for martial arts training. Well, the real reason is that in a music lesson the teacher is giving you his undivided attention for the full hour. In a group class, the attention is divided, so you should be paying less. If you work on equivalent rates, the martial arts class of 15 students should be paying £1 to make the total amount paid for time equal in that case. However, there are also outgoings and equipment purchases, so £2 per hour would probably be reasonable if the dojo hire fee isn't too high.

I will almost always question very high rates, as there's no justification for them in many cases (going back to the lawyer example, he will be doing a lot of work in the background, researching the case, looking at the opponents, etc, most of which you won't see).

Doctors and other professionals work very long hours fort he pay they get. Some martial arts clubs I've seen on the net must be making almost the same in a single 90 minutes class as a professional could make in a day. Not really necessary IMO. But then I don't see martial arts as a money-making venture.

 

[Andrew Green]

I will almost always question very high rates, as there's no justification

Then you haven't done the math on a commercial school...

Overhead is high, and the students have to pay it, as well as the instructors salary.

The comparisson to music teachers snd fees doesn't work as the costs are different.

In a 1000 sq ft building you can have several 1 on 1 sessions going. They don't need much space. In a martial arts class 1000 sq ft will give you a small area to train 1 small class.

Also consider the level of training and expertise required. A good many music teachers are students, working part time. In the martial arts world this often gets called a mcdojo trait.

A better comparisson would be to dance schools.

 

[Rob Broad]

Then you haven't done the math on a commercial school...

Overhead is high, and the students have to pay it, as well as the instructors salary.

The comparisson to music teachers snd fees doesn't work as the costs are different.

In a 1000 sq ft building you can have several 1 on 1 sessions going. They don't need much space. In a martial arts class 1000 sq ft will give you a small area to train 1 small class.

Also consider the level of training and expertise required. A good many music teachers are students, working part time. In the martial arts world this often gets called a mcdojo trait.

A better comparisson would be to dance schools.

Where I live the average price for commercial property is $6.00 - $15.00 a square foot. To have enough space to run a class you need either a high volume of students or high fees just to pay the rent. Then there is utilities, insurance, advertising etc..... it all adds up and gets quite expensive.

Personally I would rather have a medium sized school, with mid range prices, and scrtape by each month, than over charge my students.

 

[Aegis]

If you have your own martial arts building then yes, you might have problems there. Which is why most martial arts clubs that I've ever seen rent space to use for the times that their lessons are scheduled for rather than rent a large space full-time and have to make up the costs from a single lesson a day.

 

[Andrew Green]

Is it overcharging if you are paying the bills and drawing a fair salary? Or under charging if they pull up in new SUV's and you work a second job to make ends meet?

" If you have your own martial arts building then yes, you might have problems there."

But that is the point isn't it. Music schools have their own building, dance schools do, Lawyers got thier own offices. A full time location offers many benefits over renting space a couple nights a week. But you pay for those benefits. If you don't want them, don't train there. But some people DO want them, and why should they not get them because some people feel all martial arts instructors should be poor?

 

[Aegis]

If it's a fair salary, then fine. For example, if the instructor is working the equivalent of a part time job and pulling in a reasonable salary, then no problem. However, if an instructor is charging so much that he can pull in a high salary with only a couple of 2-hour classes a week, or a similar amount of effort put in on his part, then no, I don't think it's fair for that instructor to be charging what he does.

I have my own views on this, I don't expect everyone to agree with them.

 

[bdparsons]

"Exagerations" are to be expected though, just as in any other industry... But flat out lies are bad in any business.

My question would be, "What exaggerations are acceptable?" It seems to me that when selling martial arts instruction the only one I can think of is misrepresenting to the student that their skill level is more than it actually is. This can be done silently by passing the individual to belt levels not commensurate with their skill -or- verbally by reassuring them that what they're learning will certainly "be effective" when they need it. Note that I said "martial arts instruction", not aerobics, baby-sitting class, etc.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[Andrew Green]

If it's a fair salary, then fine. For example, if the instructor is working the equivalent of a part time job and pulling in a reasonable salary, then no problem. However, if an instructor is charging so much that he can pull in a high salary with only a couple of 2-hour classes a week, or a similar amount of effort put in on his part, then no, I don't think it's fair for that instructor to be charging what he does.

I have my own views on this, I don't expect everyone to agree with them.

I'd like to meet any small business owner that can pull a high salary off a few hours a week work...

Most commercial schools have 3-5 classes a day, 6 days a week.

Plus time spent on bookkeeping, maintaince, intaking students, class planning, marketing, etc.

A 40 hr work week is a vacation for a school owner

 

[bdparsons]

Point: doctors, lawyers, etc. have made a large investment in their professions, as we have as martial artists/instructors ........ there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with placing ourselves on the same level as the other professions ... respect as well as financially.

Agreed, there is nothing wrong with getting paid for your expertise, if that is what you choose to do. However, I think the line is crossed into "McDojoism" when the pursit of the dollar (or pound, yen, won, etc.) results in the lowering of any standards while maintaining the facade of quality instruction.

If one were to be honest when this happens, what would you say? "I'd really like to have things at an overall higher skill level in our school. But you see to make the bottom line a number I'm comfortable with I need to teach more folks so that means you'll get less for your money."

Let me be very specific here. The definition of a McDojo is not "a large martial arts school". There are countless large schools who offer numerous programs and turn out very high quality students.

A McDojo, in my opinion, is a school of any size that purports to give quality martial arts instruction and... a) primarily focuses on getting the most amount of money for the least amount of martial arts teaching effort (however that's structured) and b) leads their customers to believe their skill level in the martial arts is higher than it is.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[hammer]

Yes, a lawyer who charges $6.50 an hour would be quite impressive. But would you be willing to pay a lawyer his regular fee if he was also dealing with 30 other people at the exact same time?

so why make a fuss about paying the same for martial arts training. Well, the real reason is that in a music lesson the teacher is giving you his undivided attention for the full hour. In a group class, the attention is divided, so you should be paying less. If you work on equivalent rates, the martial arts class of 15 students should be paying £1 to make the total amount paid for time equal in that case. However, there are also outgoings and equipment purchases, so £2 per hour would probably be reasonable if the dojo hire fee isn't too high.

I will almost always question very high rates, as there's no justification for them in many cases (going back to the lawyer example, he will be doing a lot of work in the background, researching the case, looking at the opponents, etc, most of which you won't see).

Doctors and other professionals work very long hours fort he pay they get. Some martial arts clubs I've seen on the net must be making almost the same in a single 90 minutes class as a professional could make in a day. Not really necessary IMO. But then I don't see martial arts as a money-making venture.

Hey dude,

I respectfully disagree with the majority of your post.

I've heard many comparisons made between, say, martial arts lesson and music lessons, where it is possible that you will pay £15 for a one-hour music lesson,

Doh!
Private tuition will always be higher in value. Maybe dancing lesson's and aerobic class might be a better comparisons between $10-$15 per session.

If you work on equivalent rates, the martial arts class of 15 students should be paying £1 to make the total amount paid for time equal in that case. However, there are also outgoings and equipment purchases, so £2 per hour would probably be reasonable if the dojo hire fee isn't too high.

You think! Many instructors devalue themselves and only charge a token fee, How can you put a price on experience, blood, sweat, and tears, not to mention the personal sacrifice and associated cost's, additionally any further education or study either academic or art orientated.

I will almost always question very high rates, as there's no justification for them in many cases (going back to the lawyer example, he will be doing a lot of work in the background, researching the case, looking at the opponents, etc, most of which you won't see).

An Instructor dosn't!!!, No lesson plan's , No constant concern and thoughts for his students individual development, no consistant practice and maintainence of the art, no futher study to benifit his students, Adiministation, plus the countless hours giving of his time, most of which you don't see.

Who is to say what one should charge , it is always your choice!!!
Lets face it, if your giving it away the there is no percived value and is treated as a novelitiy, even if the club is non profit it still as cost's.

Doctors and other professionals work very long hours fort he pay they get. Some martial arts clubs I've seen on the net must be making almost the same in a single 90 minutes class as a professional could make in a day. Not really necessary IMO. But then I don't see martial arts as a money-making venture

True, yet if the instructor is a profesional, has dedicated some 20 years, to his art, Is providing qualitiy instruction, and facilities, equipment, then he can charge like a professional, it is your choice.

but none of the above indicates to a Mc dojo, nor is on topic.

Cheers

 

[Andrew Green]

If one were to be honest when this happens, what would you say? "I'd really like to have things at an overall higher skill level in our school. But you see to make the bottom line a number I'm comfortable with I need to teach more folks so that means you'll get less for your money."

But then the question will be, should martial arts be restricted to those that are willing to train at that higher level? Getting to a higher skill level means pushing people harder, more intense training. Many people don't want to go that level, does that mean they shouldn't be doing anything?

Should "Beer" baseball leauges and flag football leagues be removed as they are "watered down" versions of the "real" sports? Should Cardio Kickboxing be banned because there is no hard sparring and fights?

Some people actually WANT the watered down version, that is what they are comfortable with. It is still beneficial, it still keeps them active, they have fun doing it and it makes this sport of ours a little more mainstream. Anyone that wants to train harder and spar hard will seek out a place that does that.

 

[Aegis]

I'd like to meet any small business owner that can pull a high salary off a few hours a week work...

Most commercial schools have 3-5 classes a day, 6 days a week.

Plus time spent on bookkeeping, maintaince, intaking students, class planning, marketing, etc.

A 40 hr work week is a vacation for a school owner

And with that sort of workload, I would have no issue with the instructor taking home a reasonable profit. As you say, he has to have enough money to live.

An example of what I see as wrong is a kung fu class that trains in the same building as one of my jujutsu clubs. We charge £2 per 2-hour session, and the instructor teaches for free. We wouldn't begrudge him charging more and taking home some money from each session, but he doesn't.

The kung fu class after us runs for 1 hour or maybe 90 minutes on some days, and the students get charged about £7 each. We have 1 instructor and a fairly small class, they have 1 instructor and a fairly big class. My question is why? They don't use any equipment and they pay the same room rent as we do, yet thay're paying somewhere int he region of five times what we do despite having the exact same outgoings. The money goes straight to their instructor, who takes probably over £100 PROFIT from each of these 1.5 hour sessions.

That's what I mean when I say charging too much, not someone who teaches full time and gets the equivalent of a full-time salary.

 

[Aegis]

Hey dude,

I respectfully disagree with the majority of your post.

Cool

Doh!
Private tuition will always be higher in value. Maybe dancing lesson's and aerobic class might be a better comparisons between $10-$15 per session.

I'm not from the US, so I have no idea if that would be considered a good price or not there! I know that if I was asked to pay £7-10 for a 1-hour aerobics lesson here, I'd probably not bother and find something else, and it would be a similar situation with martial arts for me. (not that I like aerobics or dancing, so it's a bit of an unfair comparison still )

You think! Many instructors devalue themselves and only charge a token fee, How can you put a price on experience, blood, sweat, and tears, not to mention the personal sacrifice and associated cost's, additionally any further education or study either academic or art orientated.

An Instructor dosn't!!!, No lesson plan's , No constant concern and thoughts for his students individual development, no consistant practice and maintainence of the art, no futher study to benifit his students, Adiministation, plus the countless hours giving of his time, most of which you don't see.

Students shouldn't have to pay for their instructor to further his own martial arts practice. If he's in it for the love of the art, he'd be doing that whether they paid him or not. Worry and concern for work matters go with every job, more so with professionals. You don't get paid extra for worries in industry, so why in martial arts? And as for lesson plans? I acknowledge that those take some preparation, but each lesson plan should take considerably less time to write than the length of the class, so you could maybe put in some small scaling factor to the length of the classes. If we're talking a lot of classes, it's a lot of extra work, if it's not a lot of classes, it's not much extra work at all.

Who is to say what one should charge , it is always your choice!!!
Lets face it, if your giving it away the there is no percived value and is treated as a novelitiy, even if the club is non profit it still as cost's.

Indeed, as I mentioned in my last post, my jujutsu clubs are non-profit, our instructors get nothing financial out of their lessons, and we still charge to cover our club costs.

I think the real problem is that people sometimes assume that paying more = better class, which is why the higher cost classes tend to survive. Using the kung fu example again, I asked one of my colleages in that jujutsu class why people were prepared to pay so much more for a class that does no contact sparring or any description, no realistic self defence training and no real fitness work either. His reply was "Probably because you don't get hurt or tired, and you get told your unstoppable but never ahve to prove it". Made sense in a horrible way...

 

[hammer]

If it's a fair salary, then fine. For example, if the instructor is working the equivalent of a part time job and pulling in a reasonable salary, then no problem. However, if an instructor is charging so much that he can pull in a high salary with only a couple of 2-hour classes a week, or a similar amount of effort put in on his part, then no, I don't think it's fair for that instructor to be charging what he does.

I have my own views on this, I don't expect everyone to agree with them.

I have my own views on this, I don't expect everyone to agree with them

Cool, But that is rubbish, Ok you lock yourself out of your house, no spare key. So you call a locksmith, cost $ 60 for the service call. When he arrives, it takes him, honestly not even a minute, and charges you another $30 to open the door. $ 90 in total. (true story)

You cannot devalue the service of a professional

and a Professional Instructor is no different.!!!

It is your choice!

Cheers.

 

[hammer]

Aegis, sorry mate I am a slow typest, so I missed your last post prior to posting mine . lol

All good

 

[Aegis]

Cool, But that is rubbish, Ok you lock yourself out of your house, no spare key. So you call a locksmith, cost $ 60 for the service call. When he arrives, it takes him, honestly not even a minute, and charges you another $30 to open the door. $ 90 in total. (true story)

You cannot devalue the service of a professional

and a Professional Instructor is no different.!!!

It is your choice!

Cheers.

Don't get me started on people like that either!

One reason I make sure I never lock myself out of my house or my car... Because it would cost an absolute fortune to get back in!

 

[hammer]

Don't get me started on people like that either!

One reason I make sure I never lock myself out of my house or my car... Because it would cost an absolute fortune to get back in!

It happen to me twice in a week , Even the locksmith thought it was funny only cost me $60 the second time.
LOL

Cheers

 

[Andrew Green]

Students shouldn't have to pay for their instructor to further his own martial arts practice.

Paying for professional development is not that uncommon. Companies send employees on courses, to seminars all the time. In a teaching role even more so. University instructors get a good deal of paid research time, and recieve money to carrry it out.

Teachers also get paid prep periods.

"For the love of the art" is a nice ideal, but not something that works for everyone.

There is also considerable risk in opening a business of any kind. It is not like taking a job at a well established business. School owners risk everything, there homes, cars, everything they own. If it goes bad they go bankrupt. Not to mention vacations are likely never going to happen, no free evenings, usually working through the weekend.

Someone that does this, puts everything on the line, works ridiculous hours to teach their art, deserves a good sized salary.

If you like the small group of hobbiests approach thats great, but that is not the only approach. Others might want a more commercial / professional approach, let them have it.

 

[kroh]

One thing to consider is to look at the service being offered. If it is a dojo that doesn't teach fighting arts but rather performance art ( no impact training, just solo kata (forms) practice, or light touch sparring only with no practical applications of the system used in the school), lesson cost should probably range much along the lines of a low end gymnastics school or dance studio. A place with strong commercial interests versus combat interests will probably have more students in it and can conceivably charge less.

A problem can occour when an instructor / businessman gets a taste of the green ( or whatever every one else's currency looks like) and starts charging more for a service because his students feel trapped. Having put in the time to learn the lessons being offered, those looking to learn a professional rank in the system might feel that unless they stay and pay the higher fees and finish their "martial education," that said time up to that point was wasted. This would be a clear cut indication of McDojoism at it's finest. Not that the instructor couldn't charge for his teaching but to overcharge would be a travesty.

It all comes down to supply and demand. If the demand is there for competant combative instruction...there wouldn't be this thread. And to look at the cost of one batch of instruction versus another can give figures ranging from pennies to pounds. It is so subjective it is hard to measure. And also consider that when the martial arts were in their heyday...they weren't being offered as a "service" to the masses. They were furnished by the wealthy to train their fighting force. The Landlords payed the way much like our taxes pay for military instruction. If I were to open up a camp and take people for 15 weeks (almost four months) and tell you I would train you in modern combatives including firearms training and tactics, infantry deployment, and surgical demolitions, all for the bargain price of 150,000 dollars...you would laugh at me and tell me that I was nuts. There would be no way most would be willing to pay for for something like that. But that is what our taxes pay for every soldier trained in the U.S.

True martial arts training is not for the masses. They don't have or want that kind of discipline. I am not talking about self defense. I am talking about training day in and out for hours a day to defend or take life through force and be spectacular at it. A lot of time martial artists see these weekday warriors and label where they go Mcdojo's when in fact all these people want is someplace to burn off stress and learn a few things that could get them out of a jam so they can dial 9-1-1. The Martial Artists around say that is not true martial arts and because the instructor is making a living off of it the instruction is crap. That's fine...but what are these martial artists doing with all this killing knowledge?

The hobiest only wants to have martial arts if they need it. Like the "i need it for protection" gun owner. Most will have a .380, .38, or maybe a 9 mm. The protective gun owner is not going to go and buy and HK MP-5 and carry it on a shoulder strap. They have it for what they need it for. What are the HK owners doing with what they have. If you train at a fighting school, why are you training? What are you doing with the skills? Some fight for money...others....they just ...train? Why develop a skill you will never use? Why are the people from the non-McDojo's not signing up in droves to fight for something they believe in?

One of the martial arts I used to study had a teaching that said, "Strength and Love stand together". A person with love for his fellow man and no capacity to help him is not a usefull member of society. A man with strength and no love is nothing but a thug. So if we as competant fighters and martial artists have all this skill to stop violence...are we no better than the Mcdojo because we don't do anything with what we know?

Regards,
Walt