Martial Sport VS Self Defense

[hoshin1600]

What do they suck at?

karate.

 

[Anarax]

Not true of all SD courses.

I understand, I'm approaching it from a consistency standpoint. Meaning, I could find a Kali class that does Tornado Kicks, but I won't consistently find a lot of Kali classes that do. Each style has outliers

 

[Steve]

Actually, the pilot starts as a trainee. But that’s neither here nor there. Your comment com a back to what is technically “application”. Doing a hip throw against a resisting opponent is application. Some opponents are more serious in their resistance, and some situations are more chaotic. Just like a pilot flying sometimes has calm air and clear skies, and sometimes it’s stormy. Both times, he is flying.

So, you’re saying executing a hip toss in training is the same as executing a hip toss in a “self defense” situation? I’m trying to understand.

And the pilot does start as a trainee. Yes. And then eventually flies the plane. The key is that the pilot doesn’t stay a trainee. The more snarky you get, the more clear it is that you don’t really understand. But you will.

If you’re hip tossing training partners, you aren’t executing against an opponent. You’re executing against your friend who is simulating resistance in the manner he has been trained to resist. He may be an expert trainee. But I would not call him an expert tosser.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I understand, I'm approaching it from a consistency standpoint. Meaning, I could find a Kali class that does Tornado Kicks, but I won't consistently find a lot of Kali classes that do. Each style has outliers

My experience is that most schools that teach for SD start by training for the untrained attacker, and gradually move to include training for the skilled/trained attacker.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So, you’re saying executing a hip toss in training is the same as executing a hip toss in a “self defense” situation? I’m trying to understand.

And the pilot does start as a trainee. Yes. And then eventually flies the plane. The key is that the pilot doesn’t stay a trainee. The more snarky you get, the more clear it is that you don’t really understand. But you will.

If you’re hip tossing training partners, you aren’t executing against an opponent. You’re executing against your friend who is simulating resistance in the manner he has been trained to resist. He may be an expert trainee. But I would not call him an expert tosser.

I think I have caught our disconnect. You are talking about applying SD skills. I am talking about applying skills that can be useful for SD. In the former, that application requires a specific context. In the latter, it just requires someone who doesn’t want to be thrown (an opponent who could be a competitor, a member of the school, or an attacker).

While there is a risk that a training partner might learn to resist only partially, they is not a given. People in competition don’t magically NOT have that issue. They don’t (usually, I guess it’s possible) have it because they train not to. The approaches that avoid that can be used in a closed program, though it will be difficult to know how well they work. A program that isn’t closed (has visitors and trained “new blood”) is easier to do this.

The best way to know people are really resisting is the failure rate. If my students can pull off a hip throw quite consistently against a resisting partner, that partner isn’t really resisting. That’s one of the biggest values of competition, IMO. If the competition is much harder to throw than training partners, something is off. Same goes for working out with folks outside the program.

 

[hoshin1600]

i think we have discussed this a bit before, about the disconnect between training and actually doing something in a SD situation. and i think both of you @gpseymour and @Steve are correct. your just not on the same page.
when you train a hip throw you are executing a motion. given time you have experienced enough variability (given the fact that you have progressed beyond having the person fall for you and your doing resitive training) to learn to ingrain that motion.

Procedural Memory: Definition and Examples
"Procedural memory is a part of the long-term memory that is responsible for knowing how to do things, also known as motor skills. As the name implies, procedural memory stores information on how to perform certain procedures, such as walking, talking and riding a bike. Delving into something in your procedural memory does not involve conscious thought.

Procedural memory is a subset of implicit memory, sometimes referred to as unconscious memory or automatic memory. Implicit memory uses past experiences to remember things without thinking about them. It differs from declarative memory, or explicit memory, which consists of facts and events that can be explicitly stored and consciously recalled or "declared."

the problem is that the procedural memory has learned to fire the muscles in the correct order reliably (what Gerry is saying) but the disconnect and failure comes from the implicit memory having to orient itself to a SD situation, recognize it as "familiar" and draw that motion from memory. (what Steve is saying).
the ability for the brain to draw from memory the hip throw it needs to recognize the situation as similar the the training and that requires some kind of link or life line between the two. this is fostered by either being immersed in actual SD situations OR training in such a way that the brain can recognize and make the link between training and real life. example being scenario training. there has to be a mind set present during the training that functions the same as in a real situation.

 

[hoshin1600]

I think I have caught our disconnect. You are talking about applying SD skills. I am talking about applying skills that can be useful for SD. In the former, that application requires a specific context. In the latter, it just requires someone who doesn’t want to be thrown (an opponent who could be a competitor, a member of the school, or an attacker).

While there is a risk that a training partner might learn to resist only partially, they is not a given. People in competition don’t magically NOT have that issue. They don’t (usually, I guess it’s possible) have it because they train not to. The approaches that avoid that can be used in a closed program, though it will be difficult to know how well they work. A program that isn’t closed (has visitors and trained “new blood”) is easier to do this.

The best way to know people are really resisting is the failure rate. If my students can pull off a hip throw quite consistently against a resisting partner, that partner isn’t really resisting. That’s one of the biggest values of competition, IMO. If the competition is much harder to throw than training partners, something is off. Same goes for working out with folks outside the program.

but there has to be a certain mind set present for the training. there is a book called Warrior Mindset by Dr Michael Asken and Loren w. Chistenson and as i remember it gets into this concept but at the moment i cant recall anything usefull from it lol sorry. guess i have to go read it again.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but there has to be a certain mind set present for the training. there is a book called Warrior Mindset by Dr Michael Asken and Loren w. Chistenson and as i remember it gets into this concept but at the moment i cant recall anything usefull from it lol sorry. guess i have to go read it again.

I’ll add that to my (never ending) reading list.

Mindset definitely matters. While that can be fostered by the environment, it largely depends upon the individual.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i think we have discussed this a bit before, about the disconnect between training and actually doing something in a SD situation. and i think both of you @gpseymour and @Steve are correct. your just not on the same page.
when you train a hip throw you are executing a motion. given time you have experienced enough variability (given the fact that you have progressed beyond having the person fall for you and your doing resitive training) to learn to ingrain that motion.

Procedural Memory: Definition and Examples
"Procedural memory is a part of the long-term memory that is responsible for knowing how to do things, also known as motor skills. As the name implies, procedural memory stores information on how to perform certain procedures, such as walking, talking and riding a bike. Delving into something in your procedural memory does not involve conscious thought.

Procedural memory is a subset of implicit memory, sometimes referred to as unconscious memory or automatic memory. Implicit memory uses past experiences to remember things without thinking about them. It differs from declarative memory, or explicit memory, which consists of facts and events that can be explicitly stored and consciously recalled or "declared."

the problem is that the procedural memory has learned to fire the muscles in the correct order reliably (what Gerry is saying) but the disconnect and failure comes from the implicit memory having to orient itself to a SD situation, recognize it as "familiar" and draw that motion from memory. (what Steve is saying).
the ability for the brain to draw from memory the hip throw it needs to recognize the situation as similar the the training and that requires some kind of link or life line between the two. this is fostered by either being immersed in actual SD situations OR training in such a way that the brain can recognize and make the link between training and real life. example being scenario training. there has to be a mind set present during the training that functions the same as in a real situation.

A good synopsis of the problem. I will add that the instances of sport competitors using their techniques in a SD context implies that - at least for some folks - the recognition is more generalized than we might expect. I think the larger issue is getting the mind to not freeze up in that moment of need.

 

[drop bear]

There’s no such person as someone I don’t care if I hurt, except an actual attacker. I’ve mentioned before that’s one of the reasons I never got into competition.

As a training tool. Competition is not about being in to it or not.

But yeah..... That psychological difference is pretty important. And part of why competition has a different dynamic to fun sparring with friends.

 

[drop bear]

I think the topic is rather simple which was more so the context of the OP's post. What the video illustrates is essentially a difference in the parameters of someone's training vs parameters they haven't trained. Meaning, one who trains in Karate semi-contact point "fighting" will probably not do well in a live situation. However; a Karateka that participates in full-contact Kyokushin tournaments in Japan will probably do much better in a live situation. Competition/sport is a double edged sword when it comes to self-defense. Depending on the training parameters, some competitions are further removed from live situations than others, like Karate point fighting. Competition rules, parameters, training, focus and goals are too broad to say "that won't work in a self-defense scenario" nor "all type of competitions are good to develop as a marital artist." As I mentioned before, "Self-defense courses" are not a good source to learn martial skills to defend oneself. Self-defense concepts? Yes, but not the physical skills. A good Marital arts school is a great place to train for martial skills, there are no shortcuts when it comes to learning how to fight/defend yourself. Though there are those that say otherwise.

My issue is that people get the priorities of training wrong.

So someone who focuses on correct technical eye gouging get out eyegouged by a guy who is a better striker in general.

I had a friend of mine do Muay Thai with MMA gloves. And I asked him what sort of specialized training he did to fight.

And. Nothing. Just trained it like it was a Thai fight with 16 ounce gloves.

There are these skills that will cover 90% of a situation and those that will cover 10%.

You can't spend the bulk of your training time on that 10%.

You just get nowhere.

 

[drop bear]

but again your lumping all SD together and i keep trying to break you of your bias and explain to you that not everyone (read that as i am referring to myself) is like that and i dont like being lumped into that bias. i could easily say all traditional martial arts is garbage and could give multiple reasons why but it wouldnt be any more accurate than your statement.

OK.

Build a case for why you are different.

I mean you can't be part of an industry with absolutely zero standards and expect to have people assume you are the exception.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As a training tool. Competition is not about being in to it or not.

But yeah..... That psychological difference is pretty important. And part of why competition has a different dynamic to fun sparring with friends.

The issue is that for me, competition with a real chance of hurting someone (striking or hard locks) isn’t a training tool I’ll ever use. I simply am not willing to purposefully hurt someone to train. I think I have an over-active empathy circuit. Thankfully, that seems to shut off almost entirely when I am threatened (based on experience). So, competition becomes very distant from real fighting for me, because I won’t really fight in it. As I’ve said before, I think this removes much of the training value. I’d go in knowing someone willing to hurt me would always be able to beat me if they were anywhere near my skill level. Since I’m not a training maniac, nor exceptionally gifted, I’d just lose a lot, and wouldn’t be able to draw the necessary lesson from it.

It limits my range of development, I’m certain. But it’s not something I think I’d ever be interested in changing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My issue is that people get the priorities of training wrong.

So someone who focuses on correct technical eye gouging get out eyegouged by a guy who is a better striker in general.

I had a friend of mine do Muay Thai with MMA gloves. And I asked him what sort of specialized training he did to fight.

And. Nothing. Just trained it like it was a Thai fight with 16 ounce gloves.

There are these skills that will cover 90% of a situation and those that will cover 10%.

You can't spend the bulk of your training time on that 10%.

You just get nowhere.

Those that cover the 10% are often the interesting stuff for tinkering. Good for keeping in training long-term, but not high-priority stuff.

 

[drop bear]

The issue is that for me, competition with a real chance of hurting someone (striking or hard locks) isn’t a training tool I’ll ever use. I simply am not willing to purposefully hurt someone to train. I think I have an over-active empathy circuit. Thankfully, that seems to shut off almost entirely when I am threatened (based on experience). So, competition becomes very distant from real fighting for me, because I won’t really fight in it. As I’ve said before, I think this removes much of the training value. I’d go in knowing someone willing to hurt me would always be able to beat me if they were anywhere near my skill level. Since I’m not a training maniac, nor exceptionally gifted, I’d just lose a lot, and wouldn’t be able to draw the necessary lesson from it.

It limits my range of development, I’m certain. But it’s not something I think I’d ever be interested in changing.

My view is it would be more of an important training tool for someone who doesn't want to compete than someone who does because it trains you not to be reliant on your mood at any given time.

If the pilot does not want to ever fly. Thats fine. But he is not a pilot.

 

[drop bear]

Those that cover the 10% are often the interesting stuff for tinkering. Good for keeping in training long-term, but not high-priority stuff.

Self defence and martial arts in general is such a haphazard approach that people have been validating any old thing.

We have seen it in medicine for the same reasons.

 

[Anarax]

So someone who focuses on correct technical eye gouging get out eyegouged by a guy who is a better striker in general.

Ah yes, the "fight-enders". Eye-gouging, the always easily accessible groin in any scenario, the perfect throat shot. I forgot about those.

 

[Anarax]

My experience is that most schools that teach for SD start by training for the untrained attacker, and gradually move to include training for the skilled/trained attacker.

Are you referring to MA schools that focus more so on the SD side of MA? Or an actual SD class/course?

 

[hoshin1600]

OK.

Build a case for why you are different.

I mean you can't be part of an industry with absolutely zero standards and expect to have people assume you are the exception.

i dont really need to build a case, i wasnt aware i was on trial. often traditional martial arts also have absolutely no standards as well. so that is not a valid point.
and that in itself is my point ...every negative opinion about SD can also be applied to traditional martial arts. look i know there are issues with many SD courses im not saying there isnt but these same issues are just as true in traditional martial arts and then some.
i know this is true because ive been in traditional martial arts for over 30 years. everything from TKD , karate. aikido BJJ to MMA ...granted some more that others. ill never claim to be proficient (until i am at some point) at BJJ but ive trained and rolled enough to know how useful it is.
now if you or anyone has a specific critique about SD and want my opinion on how i deal with the issue i would be glad to address it but in general im not writing a dissertation for someones amusement.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My view is it would be more of an important training tool for someone who doesn't want to compete than someone who does because it trains you not to be reliant on your mood at any given time.

If the pilot does not want to ever fly. Thats fine. But he is not a pilot.

That last sentence isn't really relevant. If a pilot doesn't want to fly deadstick, that doesn't mean he's not a pilot.

I'm not really dependent upon my mood. I've just found that someone threatening me (or someone else) overrides empathy. It's pretty dependable. I have no real reason to want to bull through my empathy circuits to get into competition. Had my Judo instructor not moved to Jordan (or if I'd gotten into BJJ early in life), I'd probably have enjoyed that competition. Grappling doesn't have to require hurting someone, and I'd probably have just been a specialist at the methods less likely to injure. I just can't see myself being aggressive enough in a competition with strikes to be effective. And it would be impossible to tell where a flaw in my skills/technique was a reason for a loss, versus the low aggression.