Martial Sport VS Self Defense

[Buka]

I agree - I'm just being whiny. I miss that intensity. I keep thinking I'm 3 weeks from being able to get back to some of that (not all of it - that was 18 years ago, which is 36 in knee years). I've been three weeks away from that since last April.

Yeah, I indulge in fine whine myself. Today's a day off, but I'm going in at five because we're seriously short handed today. It's only for four hours.....but I'll be on the cover of Food & Whine magazine that whole damn time.

 

[drop bear]

The analogy I use is pilots training for emergencies. They train specific skills for emergencies, as well as how to apply skills they use for regular flying. They even do some simulations, so they can practice the emergency maneuvers, with the understanding that the simulation is only as real as it can be. Then they fly a lot. When an emergency happens, they quite often (but not always) manage to pull off those emergency maneuvers. Sometimes their judgment is off, and sometimes they lose their cool and mess up. But a lot of the time, they manage just fine the first time they hit heavy wind sheer, an engine goes out, or one of the other situations they trained for. They even do well in some situations they never trained for, at all.

SD physical training is similar. We train specific skills for emergencies, as well as how to apply more basic skills then. We use some simulations to get closer to how those emergencies can occur. We apply the basic skills over and over (sparring, randori, rolling, maybe actual competition). IME (from talking to folks who managed to use their skills), if that basic skill application exists (rather than only drills, especially only cooperative drills), there's a pretty good chance of the skills working when needed. Sometimes they won't work. Sometimes they'll fail because the situation called for different skills. Probably less reliable than pilots' emergency skills (mostly because commercial pilots are a selected population), but still predictable.

The analogy isn't perfect, of course - none ever are. But I think it's appropriate and shows a similar path of development.

The airplane guy is training emergency simulations. Not training emergencies.

I train skills that can be applied to self defence. I dont train self defence.

Here is another analogy.

One person owns a knife. the other owns a tactical knife. Which one is better?

 

[Steve]

If a skill can be developed for competition, it can also be developed for SD. .

This is not a given. There's a false equivalency here. You believe competition and self defense to be the same. They are not. This is why we continue to see these dumb threads pop up over and over. Self defense is not an activity that people engage in. It's closer to a concept, and you can't train for a concept without hitching it to some skills.

You like the pilot analogy. Pilots learn to fly planes. That's the foundation for their emergency preparedness. The better they are at flying planes, the more effective their emergency training will be. You can't expect a person with no experience as a pilot to train only how to crash land a plane to be successful. It's like the old joke, "I learned to fly planes. I never learned to land them."

@Buka, whether the crossfit guy is a better fighter or not isn't the question. Is the crossfit guy less likely to survive a self defense situation than a guy who trains only "self defense?" My believe he's likely to handle the situation as well or better, because the self defense guys think they know things they don't.

And I really think it's worth noting that "martial fighter" is a subjective term you just kind of made up.

 

[Buka]

The airplane guy is training emergency simulations. Not training emergencies.

I train skills that can be applied to self defence. I dont train self defence.

Here is another analogy.

One person owns a knife. the other owns a tactical knife. Which one is better?

Uh....better for what? This is just a question of semantics. I train self defense. Which I'm pretty sure is what you call training skills that can be applied to self defense. Everything I've ever did in the Arts, be it good or bad, was for self defense. At least to me. And we probably train the same, you and I. More so than different, anyway.

 

[hoshin1600]

as i think about this topic for an analogy, i thought about puzzles. a regular karate class would be a 2D flat puzzle. MMA is more complex, more moving parts so i would liken that to a Rubix Cube. but real self defense is a like a ShengShou megaminx.

each one would be more complex, but will still rely on the fundamentals learned from the previous one. however the overall strategies applied to one will not work for all.
the same for self defense. a karate class will teach you certain fundamentals that apply to self defense, MMA is more complex, the fundamentals remain constant but the strategies for MMA will not work so well for self defense.

 

[Steve]

The airplane guy is training emergency simulations. Not training emergencies.

I train skills that can be applied to self defence. I dont train self defence.

Here is another analogy.

One person owns a knife. the other owns a tactical knife. Which one is better?

I'm glad someone gets it.

 

[hoshin1600]

My believe he's likely to handle the situation as well or better, because the self defense guys think they know things they don't.

ok what do i think i know,, that i dont really know?
and how come you think that self defense guys are not fit or even train at cross fit (if thats the gym of your choice)? i put just as much importance on fitness.

 

[Steve]

as i think about this topic for an analogy, i thought about puzzles. a regular karate class would be a 2D flat puzzle. MMA is more complex, more moving parts so i would liken that to a Rubix Cube. but real self defense is a like a ShengShou megaminx.

each one would be more complex, but will still rely on the fundamentals learned from the previous one. however the overall strategies applied to one will not work for all.
the same for self defense. a karate class will teach you certain fundamentals that apply to self defense, MMA is more complex, the fundamentals remain constant but the strategies for MMA will not work so well for self defense.

I think you're onto something. The key is that everything informs this concept of self defense. You learn MMA in a MMA gym. You learn NGA aikido in Gerry's class. Will the techniques help in a self defense situation? Maybe... depends on the skills and how they are applied. Will the techniques help YOU in a self defense situation? Well, that depends on how YOU train and whether YOU apply the skills.

And, like the ex-bouncer, combat veteran, cop, MMAist with a heart of gold I mentioned earlier, the more diverse your experience, the better prepared you will be.

But you can't apply skills you don't have to self defense if you can't apply them in the context for which they are intended. It's like replacing the puzzle you have above with a bouncy ball, drawing the pieces on it in marker, and saying that because it's the same shape and size of the puzzle, and bears a superficial resemblance, it's the same.

 

[hoshin1600]

@Steve
are you also under the belief that the training our military goes through does not help them prepare effectively for combat?

 

[Steve]

ok what do i think i know,, that i dont really know?
and how come you think that self defense guys are not fit or even train at cross fit (if thats the gym of your choice)? i put just as much importance on fitness.

I don't. I'm saying that fitness is an element of self defense that is not unique to a self defense school.

 

[Steve]

@Steve
are you also under the belief that the training our military goes through does not help them prepare effectively for combat?

They train for a purpose, but they don't confuse the training with the application. Training for combat isn't combat. You don't graduate from jump school as an expert, and training is the first step. If our airborne infantry were to train the way some train self defense, they would 1: never graduate from Jump School, and 2: never actually jump out of a plane at all. They would just simulate jumping over and over and over and over. And might this prepare them to jump in a combat situation? Maybe, although I would not count on it. Would they ever be considered experts? Well, in training for a jump, maybe. Not in actually jumping out of planes.

 

[hoshin1600]

Maybe... depends on the skills and how they are applied. Will the techniques help YOU in a self defense situation? Well, that depends on how YOU train and whether YOU apply the skills.

agree.... they apply depending on how you train. so the question becomes ,,,is the way you train effective at transferring skills from training to actual self defense? this is why i believe self defense orientated training is better than MMA. MMA is aimed at sport and SD is aimed at being a functional link between training and real life.

And, like the ex-bouncer, combat veteran, cop, MMAist with a heart of gold I mentioned earlier, the more diverse your experience, the better prepared you will be.

i do not think it is a matter of diversity as much as specific experiences that allow the transfer of skills. the problem with most MA training is that the abilty to transfer skills to SD is hap hazzard and not thought out or proven.

 

[hoshin1600]

They train for a purpose, but they don't confuse the training with the application.

i call this mistaking the map for the terrain. i dont do that.

They would just simulate jumping over and over and over and over. And might this prepare them to jump in a combat situation? Maybe, although I would not count on it.

ok so SD prepares you for armed encounters. i will assume you dont advocate getting into gun fights , so what is the solution you are advocating?

 

[Buka]

@Buka, whether the crossfit guy is a better fighter or not isn't the question. Is the crossfit guy less likely to survive a self defense situation than a guy who trains only "self defense?" My believe he's likely to handle the situation as well or better, because the self defense guys think they know things they don't.

And I really think it's worth noting that "martial fighter" is a subjective term you just kind of made up.

Perhaps the self defense guys that you train, or train with, think they know things they don't, it's not the case for the ones I've trained.

And, yes, I will take a bow [one with a flourish I might add, oh, to have a feathered hat like D'Artagnan] for coining the term "Martial Fighter." Although it's kind of been handed down to me by other fools.

And, Steve, it's not "Buka-Do" it's 'Buka-Fu". Far more alliterative, no?

 

[hoshin1600]

They would just simulate jumping over and over and over and over. And might this prepare them to jump in a combat situation? Maybe, although I would not count on it.

we know for a fact that training repetitions of drawing your firearm in a smooth manner and hitting the target works. the next step is to simulate shoot no shoot scenarios and the next step is live "kill house" rooms to simulate live interactions. these processes work. they ingrain good habits and good decision making.
the idea is to break down all of the parts of a SD encounter and train them as realistically as possible. by separating the parts it allows you to focus on that one aspect. granted you cannot simulate life and death but sometimes "SIM" rounds work wonders. mistakes are made under duress of scenario training. these are the same mistakes that the individual would make in real life, the consequences are less lethal but the mistakes are the same. there are many issues with training for SD but a good program will address these. a standard MMA program only addresses a few factors and a good SD program would address the same factors often in the same manner as MMA.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The airplane guy is training emergency simulations. Not training emergencies.

I train skills that can be applied to self defence. I dont train self defence.

I don't train self-defense, either. I train for self-defense. It's not a huge difference between what you do (in concept) and what I do. Your training can be applied to self defense (probably not all of it - most competition rulesets will encourage at least a few things that aren't a good idea for SD, perhaps MMA least of those I know of). Even if I were training using the same basic methods and the same basic techniques, my training would still differ, but only in focus. Because you train at a gym that trains for competition (and I think specifically only for that, but I may be mistaken), and mine is focused toward SD (and not MMA competition), mine will include a look at some situations and solutions that aren't likely to be part of yours.

But I think that's a small difference, if we were using the same base arts/techniques. The bigger difference between your training and mine is not because your gym trains for MMA and my program teaches for SD. It's because of the different technique sets, and a few different drills we use, rather than the intent of the training (though the intent of training partners can contribute to the difference). A few tweaks could make yours SD focused (I suspect you do some of those tweaks, yourself). Excepting those techniques that wouldn't serve in competition, mine could be changed to focus toward competition. Surely there are places that actually do both - train with a SD orientation, using competition (and its preparation) as a tool toward that end.

Here is another analogy.

One person owns a knife. the other owns a tactical knife. Which one is better?

I don't think it matters. If one is training for paper target throwing, and the other is training for throwing at rodents, there's probably a lot of overlap, but some difference in approach and application.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You believe competition and self defense to be the same.

No, I don't. I believe there are skills that apply to both.

You like the pilot analogy. Pilots learn to fly planes. That's the foundation for their emergency preparedness. The better they are at flying planes, the more effective their emergency training will be. You can't expect a person with no experience as a pilot to train only how to crash land a plane to be successful. It's like the old joke, "I learned to fly planes. I never learned to land them."

Once again, you somehow believe that someone applying their techniques against a resisting opponent/partner is not applying the technique. That baffles me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

as i think about this topic for an analogy, i thought about puzzles. a regular karate class would be a 2D flat puzzle. MMA is more complex, more moving parts so i would liken that to a Rubix Cube. but real self defense is a like a ShengShou megaminx.

each one would be more complex, but will still rely on the fundamentals learned from the previous one. however the overall strategies applied to one will not work for all.
the same for self defense. a karate class will teach you certain fundamentals that apply to self defense, MMA is more complex, the fundamentals remain constant but the strategies for MMA will not work so well for self defense.

I would argue that MMA competition is more complex in some ways, less complex in others. There are fewer environmental variables, but the average complexity of the person you face is higher.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

EDIT: Replied to the wrong person.

 

[Steve]

we know for a fact that training repetitions of drawing your firearm in a smooth manner and hitting the target works. the next step is to simulate shoot no shoot scenarios and the next step is live "kill house" rooms to simulate live interactions. these processes work. they ingrain good habits and good decision making.
the idea is to break down all of the parts of a SD encounter and train them as realistically as possible. by separating the parts it allows you to focus on that one aspect. granted you cannot simulate life and death but sometimes "SIM" rounds work wonders. mistakes are made under duress of scenario training. these are the same mistakes that the individual would make in real life, the consequences are less lethal but the mistakes are the same. there are many issues with training for SD but a good program will address these. a standard MMA program only addresses a few factors and a good SD program would address the same factors often in the same manner as MMA.

i don’t think anything is a given. We know that training as you describe above led to a 18% accuracy rate for cops in New York City. I posted evidence of this in another thread. You know that training as you describe above leads to performance in training.