Martial Sport VS Self Defense

[Anarax]

Just for clarification....It actually was a pizza restaurant

It's hard to say exactly what category it would fall under. Their own website says "Crossroads Pub and Grill". They have a full bar but also have food as well. It's more the bar element that would deter me from taking my child there at 10 o'clock at night.

 

[Steve]

They are training skills intended for SD. A small distinction, but I agree that it's a significant one.

And precisely where it all crumbles. Self defense is about taking skills you've acquired and developed in one context and learning how they may apply in another.

Look at it like this. You can take a person who has learned to fight and, with very little effort, work through the transfer of those skills to a self defense situation. For example, in BJJ, you learn to fight on the ground. In a tournament, you want the fight to go to the ground. In a street situation, that's not an ideal situation. So, you take the skills you have and work through them in a new context. Tony Dismukes and his experiments are a great example.

Going the other way, though, it is not possible. You can't take a guy who has a lot of theoretical knowledge of a context, and then expect them to apply skills they don't have. For example, you can't take a guy who understands all of the theory around why fighting from your back on the ground is a bad idea in self defense, and then expect that they can do it. They aren't starting with a skill.

And, we really need to be very clear about what skills people are actually learning.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And precisely where it all crumbles. Self defense is about taking skills you've acquired and developed in one context and learning how they may apply in another.

Look at it like this. You can take a person who has learned to fight and, with very little effort, work through the transfer of those skills to a self defense situation. For example, in BJJ, you learn to fight on the ground. In a tournament, you want the fight to go to the ground. In a street situation, that's not an ideal situation. So, you take the skills you have and work through them in a new context. Tony Dismukes and his experiments are a great example.

Going the other way, though, it is not possible. You can't take a guy who has a lot of theoretical knowledge of a context, and then expect them to apply skills they don't have. For example, you can't take a guy who understands all of the theory around why fighting from your back on the ground is a bad idea in self defense, and then expect that they can do it. They aren't starting with a skill.

And, we really need to be very clear about what skills people are actually learning.

Somehow, you're assuming the training just falls apart if the formal competition event (the thing you enter and go to a location for) isn't there. My training was all intended for SD. But much of it looks an awful lot like stuff you'd see in a BJJ dojo where they train for competition (though they do it better there because it's their focus). My tight-distance throws come from training pretty similar to things you'd see in Judo dojo where they train for competition.

There are only two differences: they (remember I'm referring to dojos training for competition) don't necessarily care whether something is a good idea outside the ruleset (and the reverse for me), and I don't actually step into BJJ or Judo competitions after training those skills.

 

[hoshin1600]

i am more self defense oriented then most and i would like to get in on this conversation but i dont even know where to begin.

 

[hoshin1600]

If you've never used skills n the ring or on the job, you're kidding yourself if you think you're better prepared for self defense than someone who has.

yes if you have only trained in the dojo you are less experienced then the guy who goes out every weekend looking for and getting into fights.
but you are better off training in the dojo then sitting on the couch eating snacks and watching TV.
i really think you are missing the point of how training actually works. i also think you have a defined vision of what self defense is that may not match what a lot of self defense training actually looks like.

 

[Steve]

yes if you have only trained in the dojo you are less experienced then the guy who goes out every weekend looking for and getting into fights.
but you are better off training in the dojo then sitting on the couch eating snacks and watching TV.
i really think you are missing the point of how training actually works. i also think you have a defined vision of what self defense is that may not match what a lot of self defense training actually looks like.

I think youre better off than the couch potato who does nothing, but are you better off than the guy who does cross fit or gains a similar level of fitness? You're making the argument that something is better than nothing. Generally, I agree .

 

[Steve]

Somehow, you're assuming the training just falls apart if the formal competition event (the thing you enter and go to a location for) isn't there. My training was all intended for SD. But much of it looks an awful lot like stuff you'd see in a BJJ dojo where they train for competition (though they do it better there because it's their focus). My tight-distance throws come from training pretty similar to things you'd see in Judo dojo where they train for competition.

There are only two differences: they (remember I'm referring to dojos training for competition) don't necessarily care whether something is a good idea outside the ruleset (and the reverse for me), and I don't actually step into BJJ or Judo competitions after training those skills.

I'm sure your training is top notch. But you're still missing the point I just made. It's about the direction that people learn and develop skill to the point they can begin applying them to different situations.

You think this is about BJJ training, which is weird. This isn't about NGA vs BJJ or anything like that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm sure your training is top notch. But you're still missing the point I just made. It's about the direction that people learn and develop skill to the point they can begin applying them to different situations.

You think this is about BJJ training, which is weird. This isn't about NGA vs BJJ or anything like that.

No, I didn’t say I thought it was about BJJ training. I think (because of the thread and our past discussions) it’s about the difference between sport and SD training. I used two specific arts (BJJ and Judo - you ignored one) that have strong competition presence and happen to be part of my background to different degrees.

If a skill can be developed for competition, it can also be developed for SD. We (pretty much all of us here) know how human bodies work. The only big questions are relevance (of individual techniques and overall approach) and response under fear.

 

[hoshin1600]

are you better off than the guy who does cross fit or gains a similar level of fitness?

can you define what you think SD training is like. i feel we have a different understanding of what SD training entails.

 

[Buka]

Think about it like this. No one trains self defense . Everyone is training something else, and hoping that those skills will be there for them in a different context (self defense).

If you think about it this way, things begin to click into place .

I disagree. I've been training with self defense in the forefront of my mind for a very long time. I've been teaching with self defense in mind as well. All I can base whether it's been a waste of time or not is in the abilities of those I've taught. Which lets me sleep very well at night. [or lately, during sunny afternoons on days off]

This is one of the conversations that's very difficult to have online. It's not just the lack of immediate give and take and tone of voice......I'm Italian, I talk with my hands. Oh, if you could see me now on my laptop. Just inadvertently slapped myself upside the head trying to use a conjunction.

 

[Buka]

Are you suggesting the father should have been responsible and shouldn't have taken his 4 year old daughter to a bar at night? How dare you suggest such a sensible approach to parenting. Next you'll tell us parents shouldn't take their kids to protests.

And going in was just the preamble. Getting into a verbal confrontation while holding a baby....man, just so wrong.

That poor kid going forward. I'm picturing her asking dad for advice.

 

[drop bear]

No, I didn’t say I thought it was about BJJ training. I think (because of the thread and our past discussions) it’s about the difference between sport and SD training. I used two specific arts (BJJ and Judo - you ignored one) that have strong competition presence and happen to be part of my background to different degrees.

If a skill can be developed for competition, it can also be developed for SD. We (pretty much all of us here) know how human bodies work. The only big questions are relevance (of individual techniques and overall approach) and response under fear.

The second part doesn't reflect reality from a competition point of view. So for example. I know how human bodies work. And am doing the same basic concept as my coach. So relevance is about the same. My technique isn't identifiably wrong.

But I get consistently beaten.

So there is an element of knowing something he has that I don't.

 

[drop bear]

I disagree. I've been training with self defense in the forefront of my mind for a very long time. I've been teaching with self defense in mind as well. All I can base whether it's been a waste of time or not is in the abilities of those I've taught. Which lets me sleep very well at night. [or lately, during sunny afternoons on days off]

This is one of the conversations that's very difficult to have online. It's not just the lack of immediate give and take and tone of voice......I'm Italian, I talk with my hands. Oh, if you could see me now on my laptop. Just inadvertently slapped myself upside the head trying to use a conjunction.

It is like astronauts training for space.

But they are not actually in space.

 

[Buka]

That's a pretty good point right there.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The second part doesn't reflect reality from a competition point of view. So for example. I know how human bodies work. And am doing the same basic concept as my coach. So relevance is about the same. My technique isn't identifiably wrong.

But I get consistently beaten.

So there is an element of knowing something he has that I don't.

I don't think any of that is contrary to what I'm saying.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is like astronauts training for space.

But they are not actually in space.

The analogy I use is pilots training for emergencies. They train specific skills for emergencies, as well as how to apply skills they use for regular flying. They even do some simulations, so they can practice the emergency maneuvers, with the understanding that the simulation is only as real as it can be. Then they fly a lot. When an emergency happens, they quite often (but not always) manage to pull off those emergency maneuvers. Sometimes their judgment is off, and sometimes they lose their cool and mess up. But a lot of the time, they manage just fine the first time they hit heavy wind sheer, an engine goes out, or one of the other situations they trained for. They even do well in some situations they never trained for, at all.

SD physical training is similar. We train specific skills for emergencies, as well as how to apply more basic skills then. We use some simulations to get closer to how those emergencies can occur. We apply the basic skills over and over (sparring, randori, rolling, maybe actual competition). IME (from talking to folks who managed to use their skills), if that basic skill application exists (rather than only drills, especially only cooperative drills), there's a pretty good chance of the skills working when needed. Sometimes they won't work. Sometimes they'll fail because the situation called for different skills. Probably less reliable than pilots' emergency skills (mostly because commercial pilots are a selected population), but still predictable.

The analogy isn't perfect, of course - none ever are. But I think it's appropriate and shows a similar path of development.

 

[Buka]

I think youre better off than the couch potato who does nothing, but are you better off than the guy who does cross fit or gains a similar level of fitness? You're making the argument that something is better than nothing. Generally, I agree .

I think you bring up an important point, Steve. About the cross fit guy, who, for the sake of this discussion, we're considering him to be "in shape."

I'm sometimes amazed to speak with guys who've been training for a couple of years in the Arts, regular training, not once a week training...and they're in no kind of shape. Not fighting shape, fitness shape, health shape, whatever kind of shape you want to call it.

You know that old adage, it's not the destination, it's the journey? The same is true of the Arts. That cross fit guy you mentioned? Give me him as a student any old day, but NOT once he's in shape from cross fit. Give me him BEFORE he got in shape. At least we know he'll take on the journey. Martial training will get you in shape. Should, anyway. Filthy, nasty, come and get it, sucker...shape. Getting in shape is not easy. It's a very difficult task.

Going through the get in shape journey, gives you part of the wherewithal needed to actually defend yourself. One of my long time training partners always said, "Competition is easy, it's fun. Classwork can kill you if you ain't careful. It can make you quit. Classwork sucks."
I'm sorry he feels that way. I truly am. Probably why he quit training. Only lasted forty one years, full time. [pussy]

So....the crossfit guy may be more able to defend himself than others, likely even, but he ain't even in the same conversation as an in shape Martial fighter as far as defending one self. Never mind being in the same conversation, he ain't even even on the same planet.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think you bring up an important point, Steve. About the cross fit guy, who, for the sake of this discussion, we're considering him to be "in shape."

I'm sometimes amazed to speak with guys who've been training for a couple of years in the Arts, regular training, not once a week training...and they're in no kind of shape. Not fighting shape, fitness shape, health shape, whatever kind of shape you want to call it.

You know that old adage, it's not the destination, it's the journey? The same is true of the Arts. That cross fit guy you mentioned? Give me him as a student any old day, but NOT once he's in shape from cross fit. Give me him BEFORE he got in shape. At least we know he'll take on the journey. Martial training will get you in shape. Should, anyway. Filthy, nasty, come and get it, sucker...shape. Getting in shape is not easy. It's a very difficult task.

Going through the get in shape journey, gives you part of the wherewithal needed to actually defend yourself. One of my long time training partners always said, "Competition is easy, it's fun. Classwork can kill you if you ain't careful. It can make you quit. Classwork sucks."
I'm sorry he feels that way. I truly am. Probably why he quit training. Only lasted forty one years, full time. [pussy]

So....the crossfit guy may be more able to defend himself than others, likely even, but he ain't even in the same conversation as an in shape Martial fighter as far as defending one self. Never mind being in the same conversation, he ain't even even on the same planet.

That's one of the things I miss in my training lately, brother. My connective tissue injuries have kept me from being able to train with any real intensity for more than a few minutes without re-injuring something (I know, because I keep re-injuring something). I got a lot of good sweat, toughness, and moxie out of my training when I was training hard, hitting the mats hard, and going home tired to get up sore (and sometimes bruised) the next day. I miss that, and I'm getting less in shape because of it. And that makes me whiny. And nobody likes whiny.

 

[Buka]

That's one of the things I miss in my training lately, brother. My connective tissue injuries have kept me from being able to train with any real intensity for more than a few minutes without re-injuring something (I know, because I keep re-injuring something). I got a lot of good sweat, toughness, and moxie out of my training when I was training hard, hitting the mats hard, and going home tired to get up sore (and sometimes bruised) the next day. I miss that, and I'm getting less in shape because of it. And that makes me whiny. And nobody likes whiny.

Ah, but you have to keep something in mind, the fact that you once did that leaves a complete history on your hard drive, the hard drive inside your body and mind. That ability to defend anything is still there. It's like going through boot camp, or even going through SEAL hell week, years later the intensity of the training might not be the same, but the ability to use all you learned by going through said training is very much there, and used by all who went through it for the rest of both their careers and their lives.

Review your internal hard drive now and again. You're still the same fighter, just more efficient now.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ah, but you have to keep something in mind, the fact that you once did that leaves a complete history on your hard drive, the hard drive inside your body and mind. That ability to defend anything is still there. It's like going through boot camp, or even going through SEAL hell week, years later the intensity of the training might not be the same, but the ability to use all you learned by going through said training is very much there, and used by all who went through it for the rest of both their careers and their lives.

Review your internal hard drive now and again. You're still the same fighter, just more efficient now.

I agree - I'm just being whiny. I miss that intensity. I keep thinking I'm 3 weeks from being able to get back to some of that (not all of it - that was 18 years ago, which is 36 in knee years). I've been three weeks away from that since last April.