Martial sacrilege (part 2)

[skribs]

I've got a few thoughts on the subject:

1) Videos can be a good way to learn a specific technique. Videos by Ginger Ninja Trickster are how I progressed on my 540 roundhouse kick and learned the 540 hook kick outright.
2) Videos can be a great supplement to class. For example, my hapkido class is taking a 2-month break, so my Master let us record class so I could practice for my next test. I have been practicing with my Dad (who is also in the class) and when I hit a roadblock I come back to the videos. You'll notice that the video is in lieu of class, and will resume when we are back, and the video is secondary to practicing with another person. I also like to watch videos during a break at work, where I obviously don't have my Master on-hand to help me practice.
3) I have decided to learn how to use replica lightsabers, and I have signed up for an online program to progress through the various lightsaber styles. I realize this is a bit fantastical, but they use demonstration and fighting techniques you would see in fencing, kendo, or HEMA (just a bit adapted to an omni-bladed weapon). They have schools in the New England area, but I am in the PNW. So I signed up for a program where I can watch their videos, practice with people locally, and then take videos of myself to upload for review.
It's not as good as an in-person class, but with the right attitude it can be effective.

So, to just get a book or a DVD, like Daniel in the original Karate Kid before he met Mr. Miagi, would be folly. You need partners to practice with and you need feedback from your instructor or master on how to improve your technique. But as a supplement, as a way to get you started on a specific technique, or with a lot of dedication, it can work.

 

[Encho]

My opinion on learning by videos.

This has been a debate that has been around for a long time and the answer isn't universal for everyone. In my dealings with books, DVDs or online learning is that you need experienced feedback. You need someone to evaluate your performance and understanding. One of the routines I learned I had to learn from a video, there were no teachers in that art so I practice with the DVD I took notes, I asked teachers in emails about it. I happen to find a teacher that was 10 hours away so I drove there and I showed Him my form, and he said it was actually pretty good and made correction and I took notes.
now other people may have different stories they learned from videos and learned everything incorrectly or had students who learned by video and have terrible form, maybe they did not seek out someone to correct them. There are some great distance learning courses out there and like it or not that is the future direction martial arts is taking especially with sites like take lesson were you Skype with a teacher.

 

[Finlay]

If I'm understanding your original post, you'e not so much asking whether or not someone can learn MA from video but rather pointing out the possible ethical dilemma of someone producing one while KNOWING you can't. Do I understand you, correctly?

That is certainly part of the question/discussion

If it is a common belief that learning from a book/DVD or even online is not possible then why make books and DVDs.

I believe even the Gracie academy were/are offering some belt levels online

 

[Dirty Dog]

Really? I can throw a perfect karate punch after seeing it on youtube. There were pointers that I had to learn and I learned them just fine.

I doubt it. I really do. You just don't know what you don't know. Despite your self-described brilliance.

 

[Paul_D]

Martial Arts can't be learned from a DVD because DVDs don't hit back.

I can throw a perfect karate punch after seeing it on youtube. There were pointers that I had to learn and I learned them just fine.

Well which is it?

 

[JR 137]

There’s a time and place for everything. As everyone’s said, books, dvds, etc. have a fatal flaw - they don’t provide any feedback. Online distance learning where you record yourself and send it back and forth or Skype type stuff addresses this, but it’s not foolproof. In the now defunct and non-archived Kyokushin4life forum there was a thread asking about an Ashihara karate online program. The head of it answered a lot of questions and was very forthcoming about its limitations. He said it’s essential to have training partners. He also said it’s most effective with people who are proficient in the basics, as it’s a different spin on what they already know. But no matter how much feedback they receive (they video back and forth), it’s still not perfect and no one should expect it to be. He had a 4th dan or so who’s overseeing organization folded, and rather than go his own way decided to give the Ashihara online system a try. They trained in it for a year or so, communicating the entire time, and invited the head guy to come in. He was in South Africa, whereas the school was somewhere in Europe/scandavia possibly. When the head guy got there he was pleased who’s well they did things, but there was some polishing of technique to be done that wasn’t apparent in the videos.

So here’s a 4th dan running a club with experienced students, and the videos back and forth still didn’t 100% teach everything they needed to know. It was successful in all parties involved’s eyes, but there was still some issues.

Then again, when isn’t some polishing needed, even when there’s a local instructor?

 

[jobo]

You pointed out the issue - it's not whether we can learn from DVD, but whether we can tell if we mis-learn. So, can you learn a technique from DVD? Maybe, and you won't know if you didn't unless there's some appropriate feedback. And even if you manage to make it work, that doesn't guarantee it's correct. A punch that seems to work might actually have a flaw you can't tell, because it's just robbing power from the punch. Everything could feel fine and look fine to you, but that one flaw (tension, for instance) you don't see makes the difference. Grappling has some of the same issues. If you miss a key part, you might create a nearly-right throw or takedown that's easier to counter.

yes and no, there is a question of degree in this, for many things its self evident if you have got the hang of the technique or not, I'f i teach my self to serve at tennis from a vid, when my serves are coming down with power and accuracy, its fair to say i have got the hang of it, it may be to improve from that point, so its faster and more accurate that i need one to one instruction, but then that may not be required for a knock about in the park.

its t he same with punching and kicking, hit a bag and its self evident if you are be producing power and accuracy or not and as you practise if that is improving or other wise.just as its self evident if someone keeps punching you on the nose. It has its own feed back loop and you can adjust as required and refer back to the vid if you are not making progress.

for other, more complex things you may not be aware what is going wrong and need an expert eye to put you right or you may decided it good enough for you purpose and not bother

 

[JR 137]

I’m a school teacher, so here’s my lens...

In my graduate physical education program, we had 2 types of classes - lecture classes and methods classes. The lecture classes were bookwork classes like teaching models, curriculum design, lesson plan writing, etc. The methods classes were classes where we were assessed on our actual ability to teach - team sports and coaching, recreational games, pre-k, etc. In methods classes, we were required to teach several lessons. We’d submit a lesson plan, teach the class, then self evaluate.

Once we got up and actually taught the class, just about all the book stuff went out the window. People even watched lessons online and tried to replicate them.

Then it all started to come together with the professors’ feedback.

Then we went out and student-taught actual kids in actual schools. Guess what? It was like we didn’t learn anything in school. Then with the feedback from the cooperating teacher (the actual teacher who’s watching you) and the professor we reported to, it started to come together again.

Then I got my own actual class. It was like starting over again. Then I got feedback from co-workers who had more experience than I did. Guess what? I got better.

See the trend? FEEDBACK from people who’ve “been there, done that.” If I just read books and watched videos, I’d still be lost. There’d be far more trial and error, and some things would most likely never been corrected. And this was 6 hours a day, 5 days a week.

Can I read some books and watch some videos now and get better? Absolutely. And I do. Does it go exactly as the books and videos say it will? It hasn’t yet and most likely never will. But with my experience, I can cut through the BS, take what I need, apply it, and refine it well enough to make it work and/or know when it’s just not working no matter what I try.

MA is no different. Teaching is teaching. Learning is learning.

Tom Emanski’s videos aren’t going to turn me into a baseball player from scratch without any prior knowledge and live coaching feedback. They’ll make me better than I would’ve been without anything at all, but I’ll stick out like a sore thumb at a baseball combine if that’s the only coaching I’ve ever had. And yes, I’ve actually seen that happen, only the “coach” was the kid’s father and the father’s only experience was Tom Emanski’s videos.

 

[jobo]

I’m a school teacher, so here’s my lens...

In my graduate physical education program, we had 2 types of classes - lecture classes and methods classes. The lecture classes were bookwork classes like teaching models, curriculum design, lesson plan writing, etc. The methods classes were classes where we were assessed on our actual ability to teach - team sports and coaching, recreational games, pre-k, etc. In methods classes, we were required to teach several lessons. We’d submit a lesson plan, teach the class, then self evaluate.

Once we got up and actually taught the class, just about all the book stuff went out the window. People even watched lessons online and tried to replicate them.

Then it all started to come together with the professors’ feedback.

Then we went out and student-taught actual kids in actual schools. Guess what? It was like we didn’t learn anything in school. Then with the feedback from the cooperating teacher (the actual teacher who’s watching you) and the professor we reported to, it started to come together again.

Then I got my own actual class. It was like starting over again. Then I got feedback from co-workers who had more experience than I did. Guess what? I got better.

See the trend? FEEDBACK from people who’ve “been there, done that.” If I just read books and watched videos, I’d still be lost. There’d be far more trial and error, and some things would most likely never been corrected. And this was 6 hours a day, 5 days a week.

Can I read some books and watch some videos now and get better? Absolutely. And I do. Does it go exactly as the books and videos say it will? It hasn’t yet and most likely never will. But with my experience, I can cut through the BS, take what I need, apply it, and refine it well enough to make it work and/or know when it’s just not working no matter what I try.

MA is no different. Teaching is teaching. Learning is learning.

Tom Emanski’s videos aren’t going to turn me into a baseball player from scratch without any prior knowledge and live coaching feedback. They’ll make me better than I would’ve been without anything at all, but I’ll stick out like a sore thumb at a baseball combine if that’s the only coaching I’ve ever had. And yes, I’ve actually seen that happen, only the “coach” was the kid’s father and the father’s only experience was Tom Emanski’s videos.

but that's going as most of these discussion do, to an extreme, nobody can teach you to hit a fast moving ball with a baseball bat, you either have the reactions and the hand eye co ordination or you don't, if you don't you need to hit slower moving objects till you develop it, you may never ever be able to hit a ball thrown by a top class pitcher no matter who teaches you for how ever long.
Can you teach your self to hit a home run off a ball thrown by an over weight Sunday morning pitcher , quite possibly with vid instruction and a lot of practise and if thats all the skill you need to enjoy your sports that more than good enough for you.

no one is going to reach the big time with a you tube vid, but that isn't a reasonable expectation for the. Vast majority of people in the first place

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yes and no, there is a question of degree in this, for many things its self evident if you have got the hang of the technique or not, I'f i teach my self to serve at tennis from a vid, when my serves are coming down with power and accuracy, its fair to say i have got the hang of it, it may be to improve from that point, so its faster and more accurate that i need one to one instruction, but then that may not be required for a knock about in the park.

its t he same with punching and kicking, hit a bag and its self evident if you are be producing power and accuracy or not and as you practise if that is improving or other wise.just as its self evident if someone keeps punching you on the nose. It has its own feed back loop and you can adjust as required and refer back to the vid if you are not making progress.

for other, more complex things you may not be aware what is going wrong and need an expert eye to put you right or you may decided it good enough for you purpose and not bother

I agree with the general premise. However, someone who has never punched well, will not know if they are not punching well. They probably will know if they do punch well, but until they reach that point, it all feels about like they expect. With some grappling, the feedback is more pure. If I'm practicing a BJJ sweep, even if my partner just sits there, it will either work or it won't. Same thing with a block - if my partner gives a punch (even a soft one) with the intent to connect, there will be good feedback on the technique. Even with that good feedback, though, something could be wrong. I've worked with people who were learned (perhaps were even taught) mechanically flawed punches. When they hit the bag, it felt good. Unfortunately, when they hit a person, it felt too good to that person too - not much transfer of energy.

I don't know if those people who don't feel the right feedback on strikes are the exception or the norm, and that's a problem. Add to that the fact that they can easily develop a habit of dropping the other hand while punching (a fairly common error that people don't notice in themselves) and other flaws that don't change the feel of the punch, but do cause problems in the long term.

 

[oftheherd1]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Sufficiently advanced Duning-Kruger effect is indistinguishable from trolling and vice-versa.

I understand what you are saying and meaning. I have a co-worker I think must have been a candidate in the original studies.

But looking at the two entries below, something else must be in play.

I await with bated breath the coming skewed and convoluted justification.

Martial Arts can't be learned from a DVD because DVDs don't hit back. In order to learn Martial Arts, you need a resisting opponent. Martial Arts are about learning how to deal with physical conflict. And how can you learn how to deal with physical conflict if you don't encounter others who'd have a physical conflict with you? I'm not saying you should pick fights, but you should be challenged. Sparring is indispensable.

You can maybe learn a technique from an instructional video, but that's as far as it goes. Just because you can execute a perfect spinning back kick from home doesn't mean you can pull it off in a real fight.

Really? I can throw a perfect karate punch after seeing it on youtube. There were pointers that I had to learn and I learned them just fine.

EDIT: I see Paul_D beat me to the question. I guess we will both have to wait.

 

[jobo]

I agree with the general premise. However, someone who has never punched well, will not know if they are not punching well. They probably will know if they do punch well, but until they reach that point, it all feels about like they expect. With some grappling, the feedback is more pure. If I'm practicing a BJJ sweep, even if my partner just sits there, it will either work or it won't. Same thing with a block - if my partner gives a punch (even a soft one) with the intent to connect, there will be good feedback on the technique. Even with that good feedback, though, something could be wrong. I've worked with people who were learned (perhaps were even taught) mechanically flawed punches. When they hit the bag, it felt good. Unfortunately, when they hit a person, it felt too good to that person too - not much transfer of energy.

I don't know if those people who don't feel the right feedback on strikes are the exception or the norm, and that's a problem. Add to that the fact that they can easily develop a habit of dropping the other hand while punching (a fairly common error that people don't notice in themselves) and other flaws that don't change the feel of the punch, but do cause problems in the long term.

I'm not putting forward an argument that expert coaching isn't the best solution, just that the common mantra that you cant teach yourself of vids to a practical useful extent isn't true.

ma are unusual in sport terms as coaching is both reasonably cheap and widely available and there is no good reason why most people shouldnt avail themselves of it. unless they are in prison or in a desert in Namibia or having. Some other reason that makes it extremely difficult.

that not true of a lot of sports were coaching at golf or tennis etal can be some what expensive and only the well heeled d or most committed can afford it.

but the same principal apply, you can with natural talent get along way on your own, its the practise that the defining issue, not if your instruction comes of a vid

i got my self to international standard at 8 ball pool, by spending a lot of time playing against county level player, seeing what they did, then practising till i could do it. They didn't coach me, they were trying to beat me, which they did a lit in the beginning. if id been in a position to pay a coach id have been better sooner, but that doesn't make it impossible to do it by imitations and practise and the feed back loop of losing a lot

 

[lklawson]

I await with bated breath

I clicked LIKE specifically because of the correct use of the word here.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not putting forward an argument that expert coaching isn't the best solution, just that the common mantra that you cant teach yourself of vids to a practical useful extent isn't true.

ma are unusual in sport terms as coaching is both reasonably cheap and widely available and there is no good reason why most people shouldnt avail themselves of it. unless they are in prison or in a desert in Namibia or having. Some other reason that makes it extremely difficult.

that not true of a lot of sports were coaching at golf or tennis etal can be some what expensive and only the well heeled d or most committed can afford it.

but the same principal apply, you can with natural talent get along way on your own, its the practise that the defining issue, not if your instruction comes of a vid

i got my self to international standard at 8 ball pool, by spending a lot of time playing against county level player, seeing what they did, then practising till i could do it. They didn't coach me, they were trying to beat me, which they did a lit in the beginning. if id been in a position to pay a coach id have been better sooner, but that doesn't make it impossible to do it by imitations and practise and the feed back loop of losing a lot

Nothing there I'd take issue with, Jobo. I think we're saying much the same thing.

 

[JR 137]

but that's going as most of these discussion do, to an extreme, nobody can teach you to hit a fast moving ball with a baseball bat, you either have the reactions and the hand eye co ordination or you don't, if you don't you need to hit slower moving objects till you develop it, you may never ever be able to hit a ball thrown by a top class pitcher no matter who teaches you for how ever long.
Can you teach your self to hit a home run off a ball thrown by an over weight Sunday morning pitcher , quite possibly with vid instruction and a lot of practise and if thats all the skill you need to enjoy your sports that more than good enough for you.

no one is going to reach the big time with a you tube vid, but that isn't a reasonable expectation for the. Vast majority of people in the first place

No where did I say hitting home runs nor did I say about hitting off a major league pitcher. You’d be right if that’s what I said, but I didn’t. If I had the best living hitter of all time - Barry Bonds (even without PEDs) - teaching me, I still don’t have no chance of a base hit against Randy Johnson. Kevin Rooney training me personally to box won’t put me at Mike Tyson status nor a chance at being a legit contender. Michael Jordan won’t coach me to NBA status. I didn’t imply ANY of the contrary.

I actually had fielding in mind when I spoke about the baseball kid. Fielding ground balls from the shortstop position and throwing to first base. And during fielding warmups told me and everyone else there everything we needed to know. And it was all downhill from there.

But if you want to go the hitting route - even hitting off a tee requires a good amount of skill, believe it or not. Your swing will determine where the ball goes, the trajectory, and how far. A YouTube video will only get you so far here too.

 

[jobo]

No where did I say hitting home runs nor did I say about hitting off a major league pitcher. You’d be right if that’s what I said, but I didn’t. If I had the best living hitter of all time - Barry Bonds (even without PEDs) - teaching me, I still don’t have no chance of a base hit against Randy Johnson. Kevin Rooney training me personally to box won’t put me at Mike Tyson status nor a chance at being a legit contender. Michael Jordan won’t coach me to NBA status. I didn’t imply ANY of the contrary.

I actually had fielding in mind when I spoke about the baseball kid. Fielding ground balls from the shortstop position and throwing to first base. And during fielding warmups told me and everyone else there everything we needed to know. And it was all downhill from there.

But if you want to go the hitting route - even hitting off a tee requires a good amount of skill, believe it or not. Your swing will determine where the ball goes, the trajectory, and how far. A YouTube video will only get you so far here too.

yes but HOW far is the question and do you really need to go much further to enjoy a game of golf with your father in law or who ever.

a bit of instruction of a,vid, a few dozen ball a few hours of practise and someone of reasonable hand eye co ordination should be,able to hit the ball a good way in the right direction most of the time, just on trial and error

i learn to curl a free kick into the top corner of the goal from 30 yards 7 out of 10, just by watching match of the day and practise, it was a lot easier when i trained my dog to bring the ball back

 

[Prostar]

My first instructor used to break out the 8mm films once in a while to remind himself of the details of this form or that.

Good enough for me.

 

[dvcochran]

Really? I can throw a perfect karate punch after seeing it on youtube. There were pointers that I had to learn and I learned them just fine.

Zombo,
To quote your own post, if it doesn't work in application then is isn't perfect. The appearance of technically correct it just that. One of the hardest things to judge in a tournament is technique. Especially when judging BB's, if I don't see the belt swish from a good twist of the hips or hear a good snap on a kick or punch it doesn't matter how good it looks. Books and videos are a great reference for those who comprehend the material. That in no way replaces the repetitive component and correction that comes from a quality MA program. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. If you have no compass to guide you, how do you know you are heading in the right direction?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but that's going as most of these discussion do, to an extreme, nobody can teach you to hit a fast moving ball with a baseball bat, you either have the reactions and the hand eye co ordination or you don't, if you don't you need to hit slower moving objects till you develop it, you may never ever be able to hit a ball thrown by a top class pitcher no matter who teaches you for how ever long.
Can you teach your self to hit a home run off a ball thrown by an over weight Sunday morning pitcher , quite possibly with vid instruction and a lot of practise and if thats all the skill you need to enjoy your sports that more than good enough for you.

no one is going to reach the big time with a you tube vid, but that isn't a reasonable expectation for the. Vast majority of people in the first place

There's a pretty good analogy in this, Jobo. If someone watches, say, boxing instructionals and works with a heavy bag, they are getting about the same level of training as someone watching baseball videos and working with a tee-ball setup or a ball on a rope. If they add in someone who provides moving mitts, it's analogous to underhand tosses for the baseball hitter. If they add in a crappy partner (because they are also learning the same way), it's like adding a very slow pitching machine or maybe a person who's just not very good at pitching. They might even learn bad habits, that seem to work in that context, but make competency harder to get to.

But they will definitely learn, and if they and their partner are good at analyzing and working to improve, they might even get good (just as that batter might actually get good if the person pitching also improves).

I think that's in line with your point. Learning can happen, but will almost certainly (excepting the really exceptional people) be very limited, and might never be translatable to the full context.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yes but HOW far is the question and do you really need to go much further to enjoy a game of golf with your father in law or who ever.

a bit of instruction of a,vid, a few dozen ball a few hours of practise and someone of reasonable hand eye co ordination should be,able to hit the ball a good way in the right direction most of the time, just on trial and error

i learn to curl a free kick into the top corner of the goal from 30 yards 7 out of 10, just by watching match of the day and practise, it was a lot easier when i trained my dog to bring the ball back

Golf is a good choice for this kind of learning. You're never really playing against someone else, just playing the ball against the course. If you suck, you'll still not suck any worse (except if you get intimidated) when you're paired with someone much better. Of course, it's much the opposite with MA and sports where you face an opponent (like baseball).