Exception, not the rule.
small rant
- Thread starter bigfootsquatch
- Start date
Exception, not the rule.
There's points to that I'll concede if you're already trained & have the ability to translate gross motor functions to refined pieces.
However... if you learn wrong (and I do mean wrong), if you don't get the feedback to correct the very basics of a MA, how can a video or 2 day camp hope to achieve those goals? You can't. You've got to have somebody showing you the fine points, angles, little things a video can't catch & then making sure you perform it with said attitributes.
I'm a CMA'er. I've been around long enough & have been exposed to enough different CMA styles to learn just about anything I want CMA related from video. However... I still won't get the nuances of the techniques & theories for applying the techniques with proper energy, motion, intent, focus, etc... Granted I already have a pretty good idea of what they are, but it's only part of the picture.
How could somebody with 0 experience hope to gain worthwhile experience & beneficial training without somebody to help them?
Just my $.02... or whatever it's worth today.
celtic_crippler
Senior Master
You're entitled to your $.02.....
..thing is, most don't accept that everybody else is entitled to theirs as well.
What works for one does not always work for another, your points are valid but they are still based on your perspective.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking yours or anybody elses view or method of recieving knowledge. It goes back to what I stated earlier....if you like what you're doing and you're happy with the sources you're getting it from then more power to you.
I think it's just hard for a lot of people to wrap their heads around the fact that other people do not learn the same way as they do; or think or feel or see things the same way.
Problems arise when others think that they are so right about a topic that they zealously attempt to shove it down everybody elses throat or be damned. LOL
A couple of comments: My Ying Jow sifu (eagle claw) will put out DVDs that contain forms, techniques, etc. to a certain level and then stop there. This is a control mechanism as there was a "master" who learned from all of these videos, started his own school, and then met up with myself and others who were judging at a Chinese tourney in Dallas. As the center judge of Northern Traditional, I disqualified some of his students for missing elements and leaving out the traditional opening. However, I will always say to you, sure, pick up a DVD, look at the movements. This is a great and gas efficient way of sorting out exactly what one wants to learn. In these days of short attention span, and visual stimulation, the days of learning like I did (be patient, learn what you can over the years, and become good over time) is basically over.
On another bent, my Shaolin master had a great idea I think. Set up web cams and other tech aides, and either film the students in other parts of the world doing their moves/forms/techniques and then critique them, or have the video student learn from the DVD,then do a live meeting or video with the student to see progress.
Basically, the people who are redundant with your issue are, like me, just wanting to ensure you do not watch a video, go practice for a couple of months with no supervision, then get your butt kicked in the street! Most masters/instructors like myself do not want anyone on this site getting hurt or not doing what is best for them!
On another bent, my Shaolin master had a great idea I think. Set up web cams and other tech aides, and either film the students in other parts of the world doing their moves/forms/techniques and then critique them, or have the video student learn from the DVD,then do a live meeting or video with the student to see progress.
Basically, the people who are redundant with your issue are, like me, just wanting to ensure you do not watch a video, go practice for a couple of months with no supervision, then get your butt kicked in the street! Most masters/instructors like myself do not want anyone on this site getting hurt or not doing what is best for them!
To Celtic's response above, one of the funnest and greatest challenges to me as a teacher, and believe me I was a challenge to my three teachers over the years, is to teach everyone the same things initially, but then gear to each person's physical traits, emotional needs, and ultimate goals. I concur that no one learns the same. I think Celtic, and this is my opinion only after a long time, like I said in my other post it may just come down to caveat emptor! As one of my teachers has told me, you will never truly become a great student until you teach!!
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
1) Because you never know who you are talking to on a webpage
2) Because you never know what the person asking real intention are on the WWW
3) Because a video AT BEST is a supplement for training with a real teacher
Traditionalist
Orange Belt
I think if you are interested in other arts then DVD are good videos to watch so you can be subjected to those arts and see how they look. Trying to learn an art from a DVD is totally different, in my opinion. To me its like riding a motorcycle. You can get the basic concept of it and probably even ride around town and get pretty good, but when someone teaches you and shows you all the little tricks then you have a whole nother experience. A lot of times you might think you're doing it right but then you find that you didn't quite have it and you would have never know unless your instructor told you. Just my opinion.
I agree.
I agree!
I have mixed feelings. When people post saying they are beginners who want to learn to use a live sword via DVD--which has happened--I agree that a wall of "BUT THIS WOULD BE CRAZY" is appropriate. When people say that they want to learn Tai Chi from a DVD for exercise, it's a different story--they should be warned about the limitations, but not discouraged entirely.
It's a judgment call, but I agree with bigfootsquatch that some threads turn into nothing but admonishments and negativity and that isn't good. If I posted asking about a good espada y daga (Filipino sword and dagger) DVD because my particular FMA doesn't emphasize that part, I'd want an answer and not to be castigated for even asking. There's a continuum and "Just Say No" is sometimes the too-easy answer.
I used VHS of my instructor demonstrating techniques when I was training in Kenpo. It was helpful in remembering things I'd missed or forgotten in class. No way would I have been able to learn what I did from the videos alone, but...it's a nice side benefit that I will have the tapes as a memento of my sensei.
I agree to a point in that they should not be discouraged entirely. Rather they should be encouraged to find a teacher & then use the video as reference only since they're still learning. That's more in line with what girlbug2 said & in that I agree. She used it for reference for material she's already learned, not in process of learning.
But the difference here is, you already have a background in FMA. If your particular FMA didn't have espada y daga, but you did have solo baston, doble baston, solo daga & solo espada, that's not a big stretch to pick up. You already have the basics of FMA. Adding to it is not a big deal because please correct me if I'm mistaken, isn't most FMA built off the stick(s). Doesn't the major differences come in theory & stylistic approach?
I can order a video of another branch of CLF & reproduce it fairly accurately with the necessary attributes, but if I order say a Bak Siu Lum set, it'd come out looking wrong since my foundation isn't the same as the BSL foundation.
About FMAs... No. Some focus on sticks, some on empty handed work, others emphasize blades. They vary in approach just as much as CMA's. And I totally agree with what you said about CMA's. I'm a Chunner and and Escrimador. Like you, I can get quite a bit out of videos of styles similar to what I train in, but only a vague idea when looking at systems with a drastically different theoretical base. And it's easy to misinterpret things.
That's why I prefer to find someone who knows something about the system in question before I make any assumptions. I don't nnecessarily mean an instructor. Heck, any solid, mid-ranking student can help flesh out the material in videos and books. Of course, like the OP, I think videos are a fun place to start looking. And he's right. People do get a little pompous. Not me, of course! LOL.
Didn't know that. I thought the general consensus was stick/blade/knife. learned something new.
I must be a throw back. I prefer the instructor route. Youtube is great for shopping around & then finding a qualified teacher of said shopping list content.
GBlues
Purple Belt
Here's the deal. 1 poster says, "hey no videos are good, you need live instruction". Then a 2nd poster says, "hey no videos are good, you need live instruction". And a 3rd and 4th, and then it's, " Yeah I agree with so and so, you need live instruction". Then Poster 1 comes back, " Yeah this is what I'm saying you need to find somebody to teach you. Matter of fact where do you live maybe I can help you find somebody." And on and on, and on, and on. And guess what I've seen here on this post? "Well, videos aren't good and we should warn the newbies in the martial arts world about all of the scams. THey really should get live instruction."
Here's the reality for you guys. If somebody that is interested in a particualar video, and asks if you PEOPLE, think it's a good one. Maybe one poster is enough to let them know that they need to get a real instructor, that can help them learn the particular art that they are interested in. Furthermore, I rarely see, a comment of, " Yeah I've seen some of those videos before, there alright." Or, " YEah I wouldn't really get those ones man, I've watched them and there not going to help you even if your just using it as a supplement to your training. Be a waste of 39.95 or if it's the full course possibly hundreds of dollars." However, while an instructor is a good place to learn, I have seen some, that aren't much better than a video. Matter of fact videos do have some things going for them that instructors don't. Chiefly that you can learn the material for you level, and you can rewind it and play it again, and again, as many times as you need, and guess what the instructor performs it exactly the same way everytime. No variation. NO, B.S., about oh sorry I went into another technique by accident, let me show you again, no hours wasted, trying to work with children that are your training partner that day, or anything like that. Alot of the set backs that you have in a class, aren't there in the videos.
As an example one thing that has always bothered me about going to some instructors, is I pay a certain fee every month to attend a class. When I'm ready to test I now have to pay him the same monthly fee for one class to take my test, ( not the current school that I attend). The next test is now going to cost just as an example 75 bucks, 10 dollars more than my monthly fee, now after that one it's 85, and 95, and 105, and 115, then it's 125, and all this time, this instructor, is taking me to the bank every month for 65 bucks. Now, when you go to college, they don't charge for the classes and wait till the first exam and say, " Ok, folks it's going to be 75 bucks to pay for the test. We have to pay for the paper, that your taking it on, the ink, and the time to give you the test." If they did, you'd stand up and say, " Hey wait a minute, I paid for my classes I paid for my test." But in the MA world it's always, " Oh but we provide your belt, and your certificate, and we have to take time from all the other students just to give you your test." First off, a belt, and certificate ( which your instructor prints off either at home or in his office off of his computer more than likely), doesn't cost 65 bucks or better. Come on get real. you want to talk about scams that is one. Where as a learn at home course you get the dvd you send in your test it cost the same 65 bucks, but you didn't have to pay it every month.
So let's get real, most of the guys that are saying these videos suck, are the same guys that are practicing the above. Now I agree there is no substitute for a real instructor who's right there with you, and you have training partners so you can feel what's going on. But do not tell me, that I can't learn anything or even master a system from a video. If it is done right, with feedback from the instructor I believe that someone actually could learn, and probably very effectively, and may even be better than most people going to a real instructor, if and I do mean if, they apply themselves, and work very hard to be self correcting, and do what the instrucor says they should do on those videos.
Sorry I was going off on a tangent there. My bad. But when I was going to Aikido classes this is exactly the mentality that the guy had, and it was very frustrating for me, that it cost me 65 bucks and up to get a piece of paper, that he told me and my bestfriend, was coming from Japan. We dropped out of those classes shortly after our first test. I passed, he passed, He went and picked his up, I couldn't stomach to go back in there. There were other reasons for not going, but that was a big one. I don't mind a man making a buck, just don't get rich off of one guy.
Sorry if I offended anyone, I apologize.
Here's the reality for you guys. If somebody that is interested in a particualar video, and asks if you PEOPLE, think it's a good one. Maybe one poster is enough to let them know that they need to get a real instructor, that can help them learn the particular art that they are interested in. Furthermore, I rarely see, a comment of, " Yeah I've seen some of those videos before, there alright." Or, " YEah I wouldn't really get those ones man, I've watched them and there not going to help you even if your just using it as a supplement to your training. Be a waste of 39.95 or if it's the full course possibly hundreds of dollars." However, while an instructor is a good place to learn, I have seen some, that aren't much better than a video. Matter of fact videos do have some things going for them that instructors don't. Chiefly that you can learn the material for you level, and you can rewind it and play it again, and again, as many times as you need, and guess what the instructor performs it exactly the same way everytime. No variation. NO, B.S., about oh sorry I went into another technique by accident, let me show you again, no hours wasted, trying to work with children that are your training partner that day, or anything like that. Alot of the set backs that you have in a class, aren't there in the videos.
As an example one thing that has always bothered me about going to some instructors, is I pay a certain fee every month to attend a class. When I'm ready to test I now have to pay him the same monthly fee for one class to take my test, ( not the current school that I attend). The next test is now going to cost just as an example 75 bucks, 10 dollars more than my monthly fee, now after that one it's 85, and 95, and 105, and 115, then it's 125, and all this time, this instructor, is taking me to the bank every month for 65 bucks. Now, when you go to college, they don't charge for the classes and wait till the first exam and say, " Ok, folks it's going to be 75 bucks to pay for the test. We have to pay for the paper, that your taking it on, the ink, and the time to give you the test." If they did, you'd stand up and say, " Hey wait a minute, I paid for my classes I paid for my test." But in the MA world it's always, " Oh but we provide your belt, and your certificate, and we have to take time from all the other students just to give you your test." First off, a belt, and certificate ( which your instructor prints off either at home or in his office off of his computer more than likely), doesn't cost 65 bucks or better. Come on get real. you want to talk about scams that is one. Where as a learn at home course you get the dvd you send in your test it cost the same 65 bucks, but you didn't have to pay it every month.
So let's get real, most of the guys that are saying these videos suck, are the same guys that are practicing the above. Now I agree there is no substitute for a real instructor who's right there with you, and you have training partners so you can feel what's going on. But do not tell me, that I can't learn anything or even master a system from a video. If it is done right, with feedback from the instructor I believe that someone actually could learn, and probably very effectively, and may even be better than most people going to a real instructor, if and I do mean if, they apply themselves, and work very hard to be self correcting, and do what the instrucor says they should do on those videos.
Sorry I was going off on a tangent there. My bad. But when I was going to Aikido classes this is exactly the mentality that the guy had, and it was very frustrating for me, that it cost me 65 bucks and up to get a piece of paper, that he told me and my bestfriend, was coming from Japan. We dropped out of those classes shortly after our first test. I passed, he passed, He went and picked his up, I couldn't stomach to go back in there. There were other reasons for not going, but that was a big one. I don't mind a man making a buck, just don't get rich off of one guy.
Sorry if I offended anyone, I apologize.While I'm not endorsing the testing fee scheme you're describing -- it's not at all uncommon for professional certifications to charge a separate testing fee apart from any class instructional fees. Some don't even waive the fee for a re-test if you fail...
You might want to watch out about generalizations without information. I know for a fact that several of the people who have posted about using videos or distance learning don't charge separate testing fees. In fact, several of them don't make their living teaching martial arts. I don't...
Now I agree there is no substitute for a real instructor who's right there with you, and you have training partners so you can feel what's going on. But do not tell me, that I can't learn anything or even master a system from a video. If it is done right, with feedback from the instructor I believe that someone actually could learn, and probably very effectively, and may even be better than most people going to a real instructor, if and I do mean if, they apply themselves, and work very hard to be self correcting, and do what the instrucor says they should do on those videos.
Sorry I was going off on a tangent there. My bad. But when I was going to Aikido classes this is exactly the mentality that the guy had, and it was very frustrating for me, that it cost me 65 bucks and up to get a piece of paper, that he told me and my bestfriend, was coming from Japan. We dropped out of those classes shortly after our first test. I passed, he passed, He went and picked his up, I couldn't stomach to go back in there. There were other reasons for not going, but that was a big one. I don't mind a man making a buck, just don't get rich off of one guy.
I don't think you'll find anyone here suggesting that you should attend classes with an instructor that you think is after your money, and not sincerely interested in teaching you. (Note that this is not the same as being sincere in teaching, and trying to turn a profit.) Many of us here have railed against proliferating testing fees...
I don't think that most of us have said that it's impossible to learn from videos or books. Especially if you're already an experienced martial artist. For example, I have an excellent book/video combination from Brian titled Cornerstone Lunging Techniques. I can (and have) learned from there. Another member recently posted how he learned a Tang Soo Do form from a book or video; he's already an experienced TSD instructor -- so he was able to put the directions together, much like an experienced chef can assemble a meal he's never tasted from a recipe. But could an inexperienced chef likely produce a gourmet meal solely from the recipe -- or would the recipe (even in video form) include some unconcious techniques and principles that aren't spelled out?
If all you want is a review of a book or video -- ask for that. If you ask instead "Can I learn Super-Duper-Do from this video series?" -- or even worse "Can I learn to use a sword Duncan Mcleod from the Highlander series?" and yes, it has happened -- the answer you're likely to get is that you really need to work with a real live instructor.
OP
OP
bigfootsquatch
Purple Belt
Just out of curiousity, is the Duncan Mcleod series a certified instructor training course? haha!
punisher73
Senior Master
(quote was in reference to Evan Tanner)
Why? The masters of old learned how to fight by watching animals and we aren't allowed to watch people on video? LOL
Seriously, if you watch a video to pick up an idea and grab a training partner you are going to find out very quickly if you learned it correctly or not.
What if you just think that the form/kata from another style is neat looking and you want to incorporate it for yourself just to do for fun? Who cares where you learned it?
I think it's a whole different ballgame, if you are attempting to TEACH something that you got from a video, but I see no problem at all learning and supplementing your training with videos.
Again, all the styles were founded by people who tried things through trial and error to see what worked and then ironed out the problems and then passed it on to the next person who added things etc. Who originally showed all of them?
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
If the instructor is no good don’t go to the school. Videos; there are some that intentionally do a move or two not exactly correct so they can instantaneously tell if someone claiming to be a student of theirs is really a student or just learned form the videos. And this is being done by some pretty reputable and highly skilled teachers.
I train TCMA, no kid’s classes. And if the instructor confused, he is no good find another school. As to scams I know a sifu that has hundreds of videos that people buy like crazy and most are of styles he never trained and they are not correct but it is a great money making scam so videos are not scam free by any means
Nope, not always
I don’t pay the fees you are talking about, never have actually in over 30 years; Only paid monthly fees. My first style was Jujutsu and there was no seperate test fee my second style was TKD and again there was no separate test fee and I now do CMA and there are no tests. All were only a monthly fee. And in TCMA…no belts
And if you one does not like charges, maybe one should look for another school.
No offense taken
I rarely say if videos are good or bad only that they are at best a supplement, although I might PM someone and tell them it is garbage I likely will not do it on an open website
And I will tell you can learn form a video but I will be more than happy to tell you that you can’t master a system based solely on video training or even distance learning for that matter. If you try and think you have you are right back to being just like the instructors you have already used as bad examples. If you are doing a video in combination with a “Hands on” instructor then you are using a video for what it is best for a supplement to training with an instructor
As to getting rich, the sifu I mentioned that does many videos of things he really does not know is getting rather wealthy off of them, so a video is actauklly no better than the guy that makes it just the same as any instructor in any school. The school is no better than the instructor that runs it.
F
foggymorning162
Guest
I believe this is exactly the point bigfoot was trying to make. He has experience yet when he asks for a review he is only getting warnings over and over. Part of this is because we don't necessarily read all the replies before we post our own so we might not realize that we are the tenth person to say the same thing. Also we should check a persons profile to see what experience they have (if they lie about it then shame on them it's their own fault if they get hurt by their own dishonesty) before we decide they need a warning. And last but not least the main reason everyone beats the dead horse :deadhorseis because we all are human and just want our opinion to be heard. Isn't that why we reply to most threads?
OP
OP
bigfootsquatch
Purple Belt
You hit the nail on the head. I have everything in my profile listed and have had for some time. I've also been the one to post without reading other posts to find that the question has already been answered the same, so I can understand why people may answer the same over and over. Thanks for the post!
OP
OP
bigfootsquatch
Purple Belt
Such a good point! I find it amusing that styles were supposedly created by watching cranes, snakes, tigers, leopards, bears etc fight, and people will discuss this openly and proudly, but when it comes to supplementing training through video, many turn their noses up.
