Martial arts - what is it good for?

[BaktoBasics]

Many times I have seen martial artists get belted by people with "street experience".

Given this, martial arts is probably more of a sport and/or hobby these days. Martial arts is not a good way to learn to fight - learning to fight can only be done through no rules fighting.

What do you all think of this beleif?

Also, to rebut this beleif, does the military train in any particular martial arts?

I beleive some martial arts are beneficial for fighting. They are better than nothing, but, how can I convince someone that martial arts are not all about fighting? They are about so much more (learning about culture, history, concepts, language, sometimes religous concepts, develop coordination, act as a great hobby, keep you mentally healthy etc)

The contraints of certain arts develop bad habits in real fights (ie: no kicks below belt, no elbows, no eye gouging etc or whatever your respective art doe snot approve of).

 

[Peter Steeves]

I'm fortunate to train in (and teach) a system of martial arts whose proper name begins with the term "Jissen" for which a decent translation is: Real Combat.

Our methods are very old, taken from those who used them waaaay back then, when there were no courts to settle problems for you. (Slight problems with liability, of course).

I can say very clearly that what we do works in a modern setting. I've used it to step in and stop altercations more than once. Heck, my 100 lb wife put a guy across a room at a party with this training ... without spilling her drink - it really works!

Otherwise, yes, most 'martial arts' today are not martial. They may be artistic in some way. They are likely good for the body, and hopefully also good for the mind/spirit, too. Personally, I have found that training with the expectation that I'll use this material again in an altercation is a very good source for spiritual growth. Even without that, facing off with a training partner with a wooden sword sure does get your focus trained well!

sports are great things. cultural studies are great things. are they "martial" though? if you want protection skills - the training is out there.

 

[Han-Mi]

The more sport the art has become the less usefull on the street. this is true, htough it is. as previously stated, better than nothing. I think that as long as you train with an instructor that realizes the necesity and practicality of self defense, tech's will be taught in an effective manor.

The horrible thing about true martial arts is that if you are good enough, you usually don't have to get into a fight. you can talk your way out of it, and you don't go looking for fights in the first place. No respect earned from the outside world for MA. However, all the hacks love to go around boasting their "ability" and get whipped. Bad image for MA.

The way to explain the rest of it(the philosophy, the development of mind body and spirit, and the development of good virtues, etc.) Explain what you have learned. What success stories you know. Almost everyone know somebody who joined MA with a bad temper and has since learned to control it. Explain the immense respect that is still held in the MA community that is deteriorating in most of the world.

What do ya think?

 

[silatman]

Unfortunatelty the best martial art in the world can look pretty poor if done by a bad practioner.

There are some fantasic combat arts out there you just have to look.
There are also some fantasic street fighters out there who have no formal training just a bad attitude and a good punch.

 

[Matt Stone]

Many times I have seen martial artists get belted by people with "street experience".

Many times? You must frequent circles of poorly trained sport MAists, then.

Given this, martial arts is probably more of a sport and/or hobby these days.

We can thank silly things like laws, prosperity and peace for things like safe streets and a lowered incident of physical altercations requiring self-defense actions.

Martial arts is not a good way to learn to fight - learning to fight can only be done through no rules fighting.

Because, certainly, it is unnecessary to learn how a car works before driving, or how to move one's body in the water before jumping into the deep end to swim...

What do you all think of this beleif?

I think you can determine my implied feelings by my comments above.

Also, to rebut this beleif, does the military train in any particular martial arts?

I can only speak for the military I am an, and while we don't train in a "martial art," we have the Army Combatives program as a required part of our training and certification.

I beleive some martial arts are beneficial for fighting. They are better than nothing, but, how can I convince someone that martial arts are not all about fighting? They are about so much more (learning about culture, history, concepts, language, sometimes religous concepts, develop coordination, act as a great hobby, keep you mentally healthy etc)

Now you contradict yourself immensely. Above you say MA are worthless to learn to fight, now you say they are useful. Pick one side of the fence to stand on, please.

The contraints of certain arts develop bad habits in real fights (ie: no kicks below belt, no elbows, no eye gouging etc or whatever your respective art doe snot approve of).

How old are you, anyway?

 

[MJS]

Many times I have seen martial artists get belted by people with "street experience".

Given this, martial arts is probably more of a sport and/or hobby these days. Martial arts is not a good way to learn to fight - learning to fight can only be done through no rules fighting.

What do you all think of this beleif?

Its going to come down to how one trains! If you train with some realism and aliveness, you'll most likely see better results than if you did not train like that. There are arts out there that are geared more towards sport and some geared towards combat. Also keep in mind that no rules fighting still has rules.

Also, to rebut this beleif, does the military train in any particular martial arts?

I'm not in the military, but I would imagine that they are trained in some sort of empty hand combat.

I beleive some martial arts are beneficial for fighting. They are better than nothing, but, how can I convince someone that martial arts are not all about fighting? They are about so much more (learning about culture, history, concepts, language, sometimes religous concepts, develop coordination, act as a great hobby, keep you mentally healthy etc)

This is not what you said above.

The contraints of certain arts develop bad habits in real fights (ie: no kicks below belt, no elbows, no eye gouging etc or whatever your respective art doe snot approve of).

:idunno:

Mike

 

[BaktoBasics]

I did'nt say the first belief was mine. Thats why I specified "I BELEIVE" in the second point. Sorry, thought you would have picked that up given that I ask "what do you think of THIS belief".

They were statements for discussion. When I include "I BELEIVE" that means those beliefs belong to me, and, so, they cease to be statements and become my opinions.

Anyway, some of you seem to think that martial arts make you a better fighter. Thats good I guess. I do think it might help, but, it is certainly not a great way to learn to fight.

 

[MJS]

I did'nt say the first belief was mine. Thats why I specified "I BELEIVE" in the second point. Sorry, thought you would have picked that up given that I ask "what do you think of THIS belief".

They were statements for discussion. When I include "I BELEIVE" that means those beliefs belong to me, and, so, they cease to be statements and become my opinions.

Apparently there was a little miscommunication/misunderstanding. Thanks for the clarification.

Anyway, some of you seem to think that martial arts make you a better fighter. Thats good I guess. I do think it might help, but, it is certainly not a great way to learn to fight.

Why do you not think its not a great way to learn to fight? As I said above, it all comes down to how you train.

Mike

 

[psi_radar]

Many times I have seen martial artists get belted by people with "street experience".

Given this, martial arts is probably more of a sport and/or hobby these days. Martial arts is not a good way to learn to fight - learning to fight can only be done through no rules fighting.

What do you all think of this beleif?

Also, to rebut this beleif, does the military train in any particular martial arts?

I beleive some martial arts are beneficial for fighting. They are better than nothing, but, how can I convince someone that martial arts are not all about fighting? They are about so much more (learning about culture, history, concepts, language, sometimes religous concepts, develop coordination, act as a great hobby, keep you mentally healthy etc)

The contraints of certain arts develop bad habits in real fights (ie: no kicks below belt, no elbows, no eye gouging etc or whatever your respective art doe snot approve of).

BWAhahaha.

You're only constrained in the art by your own limitations. Training in a particular pursuit diminishes your capacity to fight? That's just silly. You can "do" basic math, so why mess with algebra, calculus, or statistics?

You can get by with the basics, but it's the nuances that advance, well, everything.

Discipline and learning leads to the ultimate sweetness in life. If you think the art you are taking is too cerebral, take a quick course like Krav Maga.

 

[Brother John]

Many times I have seen martial artists get belted by people with "street experience".

I'd agree with Matt here.
Many times, that's very relative isn't it?
Tell you what I've seen, Many times I've seen martial artists handle very violent altercations with a level of grace and finesse that allowed them to end it with a minimum of fuss or grief. I've also seen martial artists deal out some nasty destruction with extreme prejudice.
But to be honest, I've also seen what you mention...but less often. AND: again as my brother Matt mentioned, it's most often from someone whose art/practice centers around 'competitive' sport/fighting. Warriors don't do it for 'sport'. Then again, quite often the physical training/toughening that a sport fighter goes through is what saves their hide. (But seldom if EVER the technical ability they've gained...it's a different...........game)

Given this, martial arts is probably more of a sport and/or hobby these days.Martial arts is not a good way to learn to fight - learning to fight can only be done through no rules fighting.

You are making a broad conclusion from a limited number of personal experiences with a limited number of subjects. I doubt you are qualified to make this final conclusion.
You could say:
"Given this, the martial artists I've seen in fights were poorly trained."
or
"Given this, the martial artists that I've seen fight on the street were ill prepared for a real fight."
But you can't make a conclusion about "Martial Arts". Does not compute.

What do you all think of this beleif?

immature conclusion.

Also, to rebut this beleif, does the military train in any particular martial arts?

I'm not sure you are 'rebut'ing anything. Why is this relevent? The military. I take it you imply the American Military?? Do they teach "any particular" martial arts?? NO. They don't have the time, and the need is Very limited. Rifle, pistol....etc. Those arts, those skill sets are more the need of the military. But: MANY MANY military personel take of martial arts and seek out these warrior ways, adding their lessons and abilities to their skill sets. I'm not as familiar with the hand to hand combat training in the military. Ask Matt Stone, I'm pretty sure he'd give you a much better answer on that.

This point about the military neither confirmed nor 'rebut'ed ((If you are using that word correctly)) anything you said one way or the other.

I beleive some martial arts are beneficial for fighting. They are better than nothing, but, how can I convince someone that martial arts are not all about fighting? They are about so much more (learning about culture, history, concepts, language, sometimes religous concepts, develop coordination, act as a great hobby, keep you mentally healthy etc)

Sure: a practice in the martial arts can be all of these things, or at least contribute to them a great deal. But you limit their scope by saying that their martial application is limited to only "some".
Again, I don't think you are qualified.

The contraints of certain arts develop bad habits in real fights (ie: no kicks below belt, no elbows, no eye gouging etc or whatever your respective art doe snot approve of).

Self imposed constraints in preparing for combat is a liability, I actually agree with you on this. Sometimes though it may be beneficial to focus and zero-in on a specific skill set without combining it (YET) with others. For instance, Aikido: very effective over the course of training...but limits it's striking a great deal. That's not to say that the individual Aikidoka won't later pick up this skill set and integrate the ability.... if they are smart, they will. But their particular emphasis in joint manipulation, leverage and balance stealing, grappling....etc. will be extraordinary down the road due to their focus.

Try to keep a more open mind and not ASSUME so much.

Your Brother
John

 

[hongkongfooey]

Many times I have seen martial artists get belted by people with "street experience".

Given this, martial arts is probably more of a sport and/or hobby these days. Martial arts is not a good way to learn to fight - learning to fight can only be done through no rules fighting.

What do you all think of this beleif?

Well, you can fight or you can't. It's that simple. All the training in the world won't help you if you don't have the will to defend yourself. On the other hand, martial arts were not meant to be sports. Tippy tap sparring and no contact training drills are part of the watering down of the arts that make them ineffective. Catering to children has also had a bad impact of many martial arts. Some are now nothing more than daycare centers with heavy bags.

I'm not looking to get the **** kicked out of me during a training session, but I do expect to take shots, and to give shots for that matter. Many people don't want to get beat up when training, and I can respect that. When you have a full time job, and a family to take care of, getting jacked at class on a regular basis can cause problems at home and on the job, especially if you have to miss time because of injuries.

Lets be realistic, the majority of adults will never have to defend themselves against against anything other than the flu. I'm not saying that fights don't happen, but if you don't go looking for trouble then the odds are against you that you will find it. A little bit of awareness and common sense can go a long way.

HKF

 

[Loki]

I think Baktobasics has some merit in what he says. Different styles have different rules.

I trained with a friend last week, a Krav Maga black belt who's been training like crazy for ring fighting. Since KM has no rules and hence no competitions, he has to fight in a different organization with a different style, and hence, different rules. He plans on Muay Thai, which is like watered-down Krav Maga as he's proficient with all their moves and simply adjusts to the new rules by not using straight kicks or sidekicks to the knee.

I sparred with him for a bit and noticed that all he doesn't implement Krav Maga anymore. He's become a Muay Thai fighter. No kicks to the nuts, no knee stomping... a lot of fist-work and roundhouses, mainly to the quads (not your ideal weak spot).

So yeah, your style's constraints can impede your street proficiency. It's not an absolute, but it's a contributing factor.

As for the military question, the IDF teaches Krav Maga (which actually doesn't qualify as a martial art under any definition). Most other armies (I think) teach their own combatives.

~ Loki

 

[Brother John]

I trained with a friend last week, a Krav Maga black belt who's been training like crazy for ring fighting.

I sparred with him for a bit and noticed that all he doesn't implement Krav Maga anymore.

So yeah, your style's constraints can impede your street proficiency. It's not an absolute, but it's a contributing factor.
~ Loki

But your example doesn't address the issue. You observed a person in the ring and made a conclusion about the 'street'. Apples & Oranges bro. Not the same at all. Of course he limited himself while in the ring, but that doesn't equate to his training limiting him in the street.
There's no correlation.

Now I will say that I fully believe that if you train predominantly for the ring you WILL be very ill-prepared for REAL fighting.

Your Brother
John

 

[OC Kid]

I didnt read this entire thread so this might have been already mentioned.

But its up to the practitioner what they want. I have taught MA to people who say Im to rough so they leave and go find a gentler kinder school. One that teaches nicey nicey.

I teach the old way with sweat and aching muscles..

but some people dont like that. They enjoy the social activites ect. They may go up in rank but do they have the skills to survive...

I know a guy whose son is taking a MA ( I wont mention the style or school). he is 11 y.o. He is getting his BB very soon. I was talking to him just Saturday and my son whom I also teach is there. My boy was telling him about my ring experiance 3-0 and my tournament experiance ect....
I asked him if they teach any open hand self defense techniques (palm heels ect).
He told me No but when He gets B/B his instructor is going to teach him techniques to "kill someone" ....

I didnt degrade, or critize this persons MA / teacher ect. But I replied " Thats great" and left it at that.

I saw this kids brother who already is a B/B practice some kicks ect and know my son who is purple in my system (hachikyu ) would smoke him on the street and in the school.

But that is what is out there and being fed to people as MA and self defense.

Not to brag but my son once got surround by 5 kids ( live near a barrio and these kids who are a year older would practice with my sons soccer team).

anyway they surrounded him and one tried to jump him from behind...He hit him with a defensive rear came off it with 4 or 5 straight punches to the head and body left the kid crying doubled over and the rest bailed and never fooled with him again.

I wasnt there but I heard about it from other kids who were and their parents....

anyway thats my story and Im sticking to it :>)

bottom line its all what the student wants.....

 

[arnisador]

As for the military question, the IDF teaches Krav Maga (which actually doesn't qualify as a martial art under any definition).

Why not? Because of the 'art' part?

 

[Loki]

But your example doesn't address the issue. You observed a person in the ring and made a conclusion about the 'street'. Apples & Oranges bro. Not the same at all. Of course he limited himself while in the ring, but that doesn't equate to his training limiting him in the street.
There's no correlation.

I forgot to mention that the sparring rounds we had were in order to get a feel for each other as he'll be my testing partner. This means the fight has no rules, but he was limiting himself due to prior intensive training to Muay Thai.

~ Loki

 

[Loki]

Why not? Because of the 'art' part?

The definitions I've read so far either emphasize the "art", which Krav Maga most definitely isn't, or that it's practiced as a sport (goverened by rules and engaged in competitively), which KM isn't either.

~ Loki

 

[Loki]

Why not? Because of the 'art' part?

The definitions I've read so far either emphasize the "art", which Krav Maga most definitely isn't, or that it's practiced as a sport (goverened by rules and engaged in competitively), which KM isn't either.
But since that's all a technicality, Krav Maga is categorized under martial arts.

~ Loki