Martial arts style v style rant

[Ironbear24]

Thing is, Bjj isn't "pure grappling". At least old school Bjj isn't. Watch the Gracie in Action tapes, and Royce in the first UFCs. There's a lot of strikes in Bjj. Headbutts, Punches, Kicks, elbows, etc. its all in there. For example, I was trained to rain blows down on someone's face once I achieved mount. The choke or submission that I used next was dependent on their reaction to my blows.

Did he say it was? You are acting like your style is on trail or something. It isn't. As for the fake bjjers being shown up by real ones, that is a problem in itself. Just look at how much controversy this in itself causes. Who's to say just because you lose means all the sudden you are fake. I guarantee if Rorian Gracie rolled with you, you would end up losing easily. Does that mean you are a fake? So you see now why this could be a problem and is not a one size fits all answer?

This forum itself never hesitates to call me a thug or a bully for getting in fights, I can imagine what they would say to someone going to a newly opened bjj place and dominating everyone. Then calling all of them fake simply because they lost a match.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No, it isn't difficult to buy a black belt.

However, it's very difficult to fake being a Bjj black belt. Especially when a real Bjj black belt stops by your school to roll with you and your students. If you and your students are a bunch of scrubs who can't grapple their way out of a paper bag, word is going to travel around very quickly and its only going to lead to MORE real Bjj black belts coming by your school.

That's not even getting into the competitive aspect of Bjj where you and your little cadre of phonies are going to get embarrassed by just about everyone.

In short, it simply doesn't pay to fake a Bjj black belt.

That first part is true of almost any art. What sets BJJ apart, I think, is that BJJ black belts still police this.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'm more thinking about independents and near-independents. I'm not sure how many of those there are. Within NGA there's a complete mis-alingment of ranks, for instance. The original (to the US, at least - likely abbreviated from the Japanese origin) ranking is the most common. It has 6 dan ranks. There's a contingent that has gone to a 10-dan system, and I'm not quite sure how that lines up with the older system. I went to a 3-dan system (senior student, instructor, senior instructor). All those variations exist because small groups and independent instructors split off from the original organization, each making changes for their own reasons. Now that there's no real parity in ranks, someone could easily claim whatever dan rank they want, and it would be difficult to say categorically that it's not valid unless they claim it was given by someone who disputes that claim.

There are lots of independent instructors in BJJ, as well as small organizations and big organizations. The thing which has so far kept the ranking system mostly consistent is the culture. No one wants to be the instructor whose brown belts get trounced by another instructor's blue belts. If anything, there's a tendency in the other direction. Some of the schools with a heavy competition focus will engage in "sandbagging" - holding back students who really should be promoted so they can win as many trophies as possible in a given belt division before moving on to the next level.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are lots of independent instructors in BJJ, as well as small organizations and big organizations. The thing which has so far kept the ranking system mostly consistent is the culture. No one wants to be the instructor whose brown belts get trounced by another instructor's blue belts. If anything, there's a tendency in the other direction. Some of the schools with a heavy competition focus will engage in "sandbagging" - holding back students who really should be promoted so they can win as many trophies as possible in a given belt division before moving on to the next level.

This is where the competition helps, Tony. I'm suggesting the kind of instructor that would do this would probably not bring students to competition.

Sandbagging is a whole other problem - and one that irritates me for very academic reasons.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Did he say it was? You are acting like your style is on trail or something. It isn't. As for the fake bjjers being shown up by real ones, that is a problem in itself. Just look at how much controversy this in itself causes. Who's to say just because you lose means all the sudden you are fake. I guarantee if Rorian Gracie rolled with you, you would end up losing easily. Does that mean you are a fake? So you see now why this could be a problem and is not a one size fits all answer?

This forum itself never hesitates to call me a thug or a bully for getting in fights, I can imagine what they would say to someone going to a newly opened bjj place and dominating everyone. Then calling all of them fake simply because they lost a match.

Many of the pioneers of BJJ regularly engaged in practices which some might consider thuggish.* That pattern has been moderated significantly since the art became more widespread, especially in other countries which have different cultural standards from Brazil. Still, the community norms in BJJ are such that instructors are expected to be able to back up their rank.

*In fact, members of this forum whom I respect have in the past called out Renzo Gracie for what they perceive as thuggish behavior. Renzo is a top notch BJJ instructor and a super friendly, very generous guy, but ... lets say that some of the values he was raised with are not exactly the same as the values many of the people here hold.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It is not out of context. It is not unrelated. You participated in a style vs style debate with the O.P.

He has started a thread where he says he does not participate in style vs styled debates.

Now i know you didn't start this thread. You might be mad keen for a style vs style. Or not i dont know. But if i had only posted kickboxers posts it would have been out of context and unrelated. Because people would have only read one half of the conversation.

But you posted responses that were not in direct response to his thread which is a bit disingenuous don't you think, likely in an attempt to start an argument, which you are still unsuccessfully trying to get....

have a nice day

 

[Tony Dismukes]

This is where the competition helps, Tony. I'm suggesting the kind of instructor that would do this would probably not bring students to competition.

Sandbagging is a whole other problem - and one that irritates me for very academic reasons.

Even schools that don't put a heavy emphasis on competition will still commonly have visitors from other schools or have students who occasionally travel and visit other academies. The friendly rolls that happen in class aren't quite the same as serious tournament competition, but they're sufficient to get a sense of the skill levels involved and whether the ranks worn at a school are generally in line with community standards.

For a school to get away with completely adopting new rank standards without being called out on it, they'd have to fully isolate their students from the larger BJJ community - and that itself is considered fishy and cause for concern. I'm sure that over time we'll see more of this happening, but so far there doesn't seem to be too much of that behavior.

 

[Ironbear24]

Many of the pioneers of BJJ regularly engaged in practices which some might consider thuggish.* That pattern has been moderated significantly since the art became more widespread, especially in other countries which have different cultural standards from Brazil. Still, the community norms in BJJ are such that instructors are expected to be able to back up their rank.

*In fact, members of this forum whom I respect have in the past called out Renzo Gracie for what they perceive as thuggish behavior. Renzo is a top notch BJJ instructor and a super friendly, very generous guy, but ... lets say that some of the values he was raised with are not exactly the same as the values many of the people here hold.

Backing it up is ok and all but I can easily see it getting out of hand. And when it does it won't help the image especially when it is already in a negative light

 

[Hanzou]

Did he say it was?

Well yes. He mentioned "pure grappling" and he brought up Jiujitsu. Japanese Jujutsu is certainly not pure grappling, and "traditional" Brazilian Jiujitsu isn't either.

You are acting like your style is on trail or something.

I fully realize that. I'm merely clearing up some misconceptions.

As for the fake bjjers being shown up by real ones, that is a problem in itself. Just look at how much controversy this in itself causes. Who's to say just because you lose means all the sudden you are fake. I guarantee if Rorian Gracie rolled with you, you would end up losing easily. Does that mean you are a fake? So you see now why this could be a problem and is not a one size fits all answer?

Well considering that Rorian is a grandmaster who has been doing Bjj longer than I've been alive I fully expect to lose to him.

Now if I get tooled by some backyard wrestler, then my instructor would probably wonder if I actually deserve my purple belt.

I'm talking about when you roll with someone and it is very clear that they've never grappled before, or they lack fundamental skills. If a Bjj black belt is getting tooled by a white belt or a blue belt for example, something is very wrong with the black belt. Despite various skill levels, Bjj Black Belts all have a strong grasp of the fundamentals. If you lack the fundamentals as a black belt, chances are you're not a real black belt.

This forum itself never hesitates to call me a thug or a bully for getting in fights, I can imagine what they would say to someone going to a newly opened bjj place and dominating everyone. Then calling all of them fake simply because they lost a match.

The Bjj community wouldn't call you a thug or a bully. We'd thank you for doing us a service by removing a bunch of phonies.

 

[Flying Crane]

Why are people so easily baited by *** holes and dumb shits into thinking they need to justify what it is that they do (I don't claim to be exempt from that myself)? Because invariably that is what these threads turn into.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Backing it up is ok and all but I can easily see it getting out of hand. And when it does it won't help the image especially when it is already in a negative light

There were definitely occasions back in the early days of the art in Brazil where it absolutely did get out of hand. You are also correct that it did nothing to promote a positive image of the art.

These days, it's usually more civilized. Typically someone who is suspicious of the credentials of an instructor will try to verify who promoted that person. If this can't be established they may visit the school and observe the instruction. If it doesn't seem up to snuff, they may ask to roll with the instructor (or an appropriate representative thereof). Typically the fake instructor will refuse to roll (perhaps claiming an injury) and won't have an advanced student to defend his reputation either. At that point, if there is no evidence that the person was ever awarded their claimed rank, and they can't demonstrate technique like a black belt and they won't back up their rank on the mat by rolling, they can expect to be publicly called out as a fraud both in person and on the internet.

 

[drop bear]

But you posted responses that were not in direct response to his thread which is a bit disingenuous don't you think, likely in an attempt to start an argument, which you are still unsuccessfully trying to get....

have a nice day

I think the constant denial that you both engage in the behavior of belittling other styles is outright dishonest. And the only reason this argument even exists.

This thread is a response to other threads. But you are trying to claim actions in other threads should not apply?

 

[msmitht]

Many of the pioneers of BJJ regularly engaged in practices which some might consider thuggish.* That pattern has been moderated significantly since the art became more widespread, especially in other countries which have different cultural standards from Brazil. Still, the community norms in BJJ are such that instructors are expected to be able to back up their rank.

*In fact, members of this forum whom I respect have in the past called out Renzo Gracie for what they perceive as thuggish behavior. Renzo is a top notch BJJ instructor and a super friendly, very generous guy, but ... lets say that some of the values he was raised with are not exactly the same as the values many of the people here hold.

Really? I have eaten lunch with him and been humbled by him. he always smiles and is friendly. the kinda guy you wouldn't want to piss off because he is so nice. Is a confident in what he does? Yes. If you challenge him will he throw down? Yes. If he sees what he considers an injustice he will speak his mind, unlike many, because he can back it up physically if he needs to. So I'm not really sure what you mean when you say his values are not the same.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Even schools that don't put a heavy emphasis on competition will still commonly have visitors from other schools or have students who occasionally travel and visit other academies. The friendly rolls that happen in class aren't quite the same as serious tournament competition, but they're sufficient to get a sense of the skill levels involved and whether the ranks worn at a school are generally in line with community standards.

For a school to get away with completely adopting new rank standards without being called out on it, they'd have to fully isolate their students from the larger BJJ community - and that itself is considered fishy and cause for concern. I'm sure that over time we'll see more of this happening, but so far there doesn't seem to be too much of that behavior.

Let's hope there's a long delay before that happens, Tony. BJJ is one of the few places I actually know what the ranks mean.

 

[Steve]

BJJ organizations are already pretty darn fragmented - as much so as any other art if not more so.

You are correct that the problem comes when a legitimate instructor decides to lower the standards for ranking. The only protection against that is really community peer pressure. So far that's mostly doing the trick, but twenty years from now things may be different.

Isolation is what makes this possible. As long as the schools participate in competition, it's clear who is sandbagging and who is promoting too quickly,

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Really? I have eaten lunch with him and been humbled by him. he always smiles and is friendly. the kinda guy you wouldn't want to piss off because he is so nice. Is a confident in what he does? Yes. If you challenge him will he throw down? Yes. If he sees what he considers an injustice he will speak his mind, unlike many, because he can back it up physically if he needs to. So I'm not really sure what you mean when you say his values are not the same.

As I said, he's a super friendly, extremely generous guy, and a great teacher. I've only met him a few times, but have enjoyed his teaching and his company each time.

That said, he is not at all a believer in the philosophy of avoiding fights whenever possible. There are numerous examples of him (by his own admission) getting into fights which were In no way required for self defense. Some members of the forum have criticized him for this. I myself don't agree with his approach to these matters, but it's not really a major concern for me. I live my way and he lives his.

 

[Kickboxer101]

So this.

that's not a style that was a guy waving his hands pretending to be Luke skywalker that wasnt martial arts.


is not belittling a persons martial arts?

Wait mabye i didnt read it properly. As you claim.

that's not a style that was a guy waving his hands pretending to be Luke skywalker that wasnt martial arts.

Nope still reads as belittling.

IT...IS....NOT.....A....MARTIAL.....ART......

Please tell me what martial art that is meant to be you're very boring

 

[Jenna]

There's plenty of places that advertise that they're going to teach you how to fight, but teach you how to dance in funny pajamas instead.

You'd be surprised how many black belts we get that can't fight their way out of a paper bag on their feet. When we get them on their backs, it's like watching a little beetle trying to right itself.

I've seen people freeze up and freak out when you do something as simple as grabbing their lapel and beginning to push or pull. You would think that they have some invisible field around themselves that has suddenly been shattered.

Hey what are you doing shattering peoples invisible fields? that could be very dangerous and could get someones eye put out!! I think as head of health&safety I do not think I can allow that practice to continue

 

[drop bear]

As I said, he's a super friendly, extremely generous guy, and a great teacher. I've only met him a few times, but have enjoyed his teaching and his company each time.

That said, he is not at all a believer in the philosophy of avoiding fights whenever possible. There are numerous examples of him (by his own admission) getting into fights which were In no way required for self defense. Some members of the forum have criticized him for this. I myself don't agree with his approach to these matters, but it's not really a major concern for me. I live my way and he lives his.

Yeah. But Brazil have these respect ideas and community ideas that we dont.

 

[Buka]

You are correct that the problem comes when a legitimate instructor decides to lower the standards for ranking. The only protection against that is really community peer pressure. So far that's mostly doing the trick, but twenty years from now things may be different.

I doubt that.