Martial Arts Orgins, Where did they come from????

[MichiganTKD]

Read what I wrote again.

I said I don't buy the notion that martial arts in China and the Far East did not exist until Boddhiharma introduced them. The idea that Boddhimarma created Oriental martial arts is a myth. Chinese/Korean/Japanese arts existed well before he came along. The human need to fight to survive has always existed.

 

[47MartialMan]

Ya know what, I don't think it has a thing to do with modern vs. ancient. It has to do with NEED.
Those who trained in the "Feudal era" of whatever country and whatever age, did so with the seriousness of one who KNEW that danger wasn't just possible...but MOST probable and that death from violence was their most common end. So their training was different. They didn't have to take "legality" into consideration. They didn't train for all these extraneous 'reasons' like a hobby or a sport or 'self improvement'... they did so with their life at stake.
Personally: I'm glad I don't have to train under those circumstances.
BUT: Were you to bring those circumstances back, those of us with the greatest martial knowledge, understanding and ability.... would kick it up a knotch....
IT's a matter of different contexts.
They were Deadlier because they NEEDED to be. We have it safer and easier.

Your Brother
John

Yeah, this is what I always tell people-sprt of. That martial arts had been developed per the era of theior need. No one is going to develop a martial art for sword combat in today's society. (Unless they want a art instead of a martial)

 

[VSanhodo]

Hmmmmm ok lets talk about the big guy commpnly known as Bodhidharma.

The following was written by John Porta, he has 45 years in the martial arts and is well known for his writtings.

Myth and legend:
When reading of the Martial arts, espically those practiced in China, one would inevitably come across the reference of Bodhidharma. He is known in China as DaMo or TaMo and in Japan as Daruma. Legned has it that is was the founder of Zen and of KungFe and that he taught at the shaolin Temple arriving there form India sometime between 420520 A.D. In the west we also have myths and legends, such as Johnny Appleseed, The lone Ranger, Robin Hood Etc.
What is historical fact and what is myth? The most recent facts concerning Bodhidharma are: There is no proof confirming his exsistence, and if a person named Bodhidharma (DaMo) did exsist, he was not the founder of any martial arts training. Historical records indiciate that monks at Shaolin did eventually engage in martial arts training, just as those in the military and the general populace also trained, But not until nearly two centruies after the reputed death of DaMo.
Although there are no record supporting the legend, it is colorful, thus popular with writers.

Just thought you would like to know.

Thanks
San

 

[47MartialMan]

Hmmmmm ok lets talk about the big guy commpnly known as Bodhidharma.

The following was written by John Porta, he has 45 years in the martial arts and is well known for his writtings.

Myth and legend:
When reading of the Martial arts, espically those practiced in China, one would inevitably come across the reference of Bodhidharma. He is known in China as DaMo or TaMo and in Japan as Daruma. Legned has it that is was the founder of Zen and of KungFe and that he taught at the shaolin Temple arriving there form India sometime between 420520 A.D. In the west we also have myths and legends, such as Johnny Appleseed, The lone Ranger, Robin Hood Etc.
What is historical fact and what is myth? The most recent facts concerning Bodhidharma are: There is no proof confirming his exsistence, and if a person named Bodhidharma (DaMo) did exsist, he was not the founder of any martial arts training. Historical records indiciate that monks at Shaolin did eventually engage in martial arts training, just as those in the military and the general populace also trained, But not until nearly two centruies after the reputed death of DaMo.
Although there are no record supporting the legend, it is colorful, thus popular with writers.

Just thought you would like to know.

Thanks
San

Well not to insult Mr Porta, his 45 years are a little more than my 40 years. He needs to get off the Bodhi/Shaolin/Kung Fu/after his(Bodhi) introduction thing. As I research things, I find things contradictory to what I have read or understood decades ago. As I said, to understand Zen/Ch'en, one has to research Buddhism. I am fortunate enough to have interviewed many Buddhist practitioners and monks. And I have the fortune to get information from a University Professor in Eastern Philosiophy with a specialty in Buddhism. I also have interviewed a Chinese professor of Chinese History. There were a Chinese military and private martial arts and martial artists centuries before Shaolin. (If Shaolin monks actually practiced martial arts or were there renegades or rebels in cognitio (impersonating monks) protecting the temple since it was their haven/sanctuary)

Although I agree, to a point:
Although there are no record supporting the legend, it is colorful, thus popular with writers.
There is written record of Bodhi existence, but not as a martial art instructor. Ironically these records are in Japanese historical/museum archives. I have this "saved" somewhere, I will try to locate these references.

The part that I agree with you on that it is colorful and popular.

The problem with this is to not find a change and to continue the myth.
However, I am not one to continually follow the same "bandwagon".

Here are some interesting articles I have found on the subject of Shaolin:
http://www.spiritualminds.com/articles.asp?articleid=1886

http://www.spiritualminds.com/articles.asp?articleid=1833

Just thought you would like to know.

Peace

 

[lonecoyote]

My two cents on prehistoric martial arts. I live in an area where there are a couple of very important sites relating to prehistoric man. A friend of mine works in the anthropology department at the University, and we were discussing this the other day. A Clovis point is a heck of a work of art and science. It is beautifully functional, made to stick in when the shaft of the spear breaks, made from obsidian sharper than steel, and thrown with an ingenious tool (actually throws the spear, tough to do, the university holds an atlatl throwing contest and it is easy to screw up while throwing) called an atlatl. These ingenious people used these amazing tools to kill mammoth that were something like 15 feet tall at the shoulder. Had to be some amazing strategy at work, and don't feed me that line about running em off a cliff, there are no cliffs around here. And they did all this ca. 11,000 BCE! These people had technology, just different technology. They couldn't operate this computer but put me out on the plains in their situation and I'd starve or be eaten. With all this, I don't believe for a second that they didn't have a system to fight enemy bands, probably just as amazing as the way they hunted and survived. It was probably a weapons based (spear, knife, stick) system and while they didn't do flow drills they were cutting at meat for a living, anyway, they probably showed each other short combinations, at least on the stick, and these people were tough. Had to be.

 

[47MartialMan]

Read what I wrote again.

I said I don't buy the notion that martial arts in China and the Far East did not exist until Boddhiharma introduced them. The idea that Boddhimarma created Oriental martial arts is a myth. Chinese/Korean/Japanese arts existed well before he came along. The human need to fight to survive has always existed.

Oops.....my apology

 

[DRMiller]

PPL generally limit there reference to martial arts to mean the Oriental arts of Karate and Kung Fu. In actuallity martial arts can refer to any form of combat from any culture or civilization. So to answer your initial question, whichever civilization sprung up first would be the originator of martial arts. From most historical references that would be somewhere in what is known as the cradle of civilization or the Iraq/Iran penninsula. That would again coincide with a history of oriental martial arts originating in India before being introduced to China which probably also had an indigineous form of Martial arts before Chuan Fa. From there Chuan Fa was introduced to Okinawa and integrated into there indigineous forms of Te to create the many forms of Okinawan Tode Jutsu. In the 1900's it was introduced to Japan where it was stripped of it's Chineese origins and Called Karate do. From there it's been all over the world.

 

[47MartialMan]

PPL generally limit there reference to martial arts to mean the Oriental arts of Karate and Kung Fu. In actuallity martial arts can refer to any form of combat from any culture or civilization. So to answer your initial question, whichever civilization sprung up first would be the originator of martial arts. From most historical references that would be somewhere in what is known as the cradle of civilization or the Iraq/Iran penninsula. That would again coincide with a history of oriental martial arts originating in India before being introduced to China which probably also had an indigineous form of Martial arts before Chuan Fa. From there Chuan Fa was introduced to Okinawa and integrated into there indigineous forms of Te to create the many forms of Okinawan Tode Jutsu. In the 1900's it was introduced to Japan where it was stripped of it's Chineese origins and Called Karate do. From there it's been all over the world.

Thank you....yes you will see my earlier post about Iran and old civilization.

And in essense, Kung Fu is not a term meaning martial art. It is a misnomer first brought to Occidental minds around 1700's-1800's acredited by a French Jesuit Missionary-Jean Joseph Marie Amiot. When Chinese boxers were performing a demostration, he had asked what was it called. One had replied; "Gong Fu", out of humor gesture. As in most cases, Chinese dialect/romaticism led Jean Joseph Marie Amiot to think that it was a fighting art. Of course this is according to some scholars and referencing Jean Joseph Marie Amiot's journals.

VSanhodo seems to beleive that Africa is. Although Egypt is in Africa, Egypt is not the oldest civilization-nor do they have the oldest pyramids.

lonecoyote, where were these people located?

 

[Touch Of Death]

As Egypt (or africa) was one of the areas to start devolping a culture, civilization-I'm think that they would be the origins of a lot of things

However to say that the Ancient egyptian martial arts, practiced thousands of years ago would look anything like what we have today?? Probably not
they may have entailed just the passing on of 1 or two moves

How could it not resemble what we have today?

 

[47MartialMan]

How could it not resemble what we have today?

Besides two arms/legs, how COULD it resemble?

 

[lonecoyote]

47MartialMan, Hello! Located at Blackwater Draw Site, about 20 miles outside of Portales New Mexico. He was called Clovis Man. about 200 miles north is Folsom Man site. Interesting stuff.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

there are only so many ways to hit and twist the body so that it hurts or becomes off balanced and falls down. aside from the cultural differences of said arts making them appear different on the surface at first glance.......a kick is still a kick, and an armbar is still an armbar.

 

[lulflo]

I guess I would have to buy into the idea that we all came from the single cell amoebas to follow the logic of the caveman martial arts. I have done some pretty interesting reading from a guy named Zacharia Sitchin (The Twelvth Planet) and many other texts that support another answer. It would basically point out that we are incomplete as humans because we were placed on this planet as a means for a civilization that is much more advanced - to mine the natural resources. The problem is that the Planet I am speaking of has an orbit that takes 3500 earth years to orbit the sun. This would make it nearly impossible for anyone on the earth to really know our history. Whether this is true or not, it does pose the question, are martial arts origins of this world or are we just uncovering a 'way' to find out what is outside of this world. I feel that my study of martial arts is showing me things that I cannot possibly know without strict meditation and focus and discipline. I have seen the results of the study of martial/healing arts show me a world that I would never have thought possible, and if someone could know this kind of control within only one lifetime, maybe there will be a way that more information could be shared within a community. Look at the aboriginees, they are said to have the ability to absorb the knowledge of others within their tribe. For instance, if one learns a new piece of knowledge, like how to build a better boat, the very instant, everyone in the tribe will begin using that knowledge without being taught it. I do believe that writing things down and passing down knowledge came after people "forgot" how to know things naturally and that eventually we will come full circle and be able to do this all again. But this may not be the right forum to discuss all of this. Just thinking that maybe we are not the only ones with martial knowledge and that maybe there is information out there in the unknowable...


Farang - Larry

 

[47MartialMan]

47MartialMan, Hello! Located at Blackwater Draw Site, about 20 miles outside of Portales New Mexico. He was called Clovis Man. about 200 miles north is Folsom Man site. Interesting stuff.

Thanks..any links?

 

[47MartialMan]

I guess I would have to buy into the idea that we all came from the single cell amoebas to follow the logic of the caveman martial arts. I have done some pretty interesting reading from a guy named Zacharia Sitchin (The Twelvth Planet) and many other texts that support another answer. It would basically point out that we are incomplete as humans because we were placed on this planet as a means for a civilization that is much more advanced - to mine the natural resources. The problem is that the Planet I am speaking of has an orbit that takes 3500 earth years to orbit the sun. This would make it nearly impossible for anyone on the earth to really know our history. Whether this is true or not, it does pose the question, are martial arts origins of this world or are we just uncovering a 'way' to find out what is outside of this world. I feel that my study of martial arts is showing me things that I cannot possibly know without strict meditation and focus and discipline. I have seen the results of the study of martial/healing arts show me a world that I would never have thought possible, and if someone could know this kind of control within only one lifetime, maybe there will be a way that more information could be shared within a community. Look at the aboriginees, they are said to have the ability to absorb the knowledge of others within their tribe. For instance, if one learns a new piece of knowledge, like how to build a better boat, the very instant, everyone in the tribe will begin using that knowledge without being taught it. I do believe that writing things down and passing down knowledge came after people "forgot" how to know things naturally and that eventually we will come full circle and be able to do this all again. But this may not be the right forum to discuss all of this. Just thinking that maybe we are not the only ones with martial knowledge and that maybe there is information out there in the unknowable...


Farang - Larry

I am sorry, I cant "buy" into that alternate Universe thing. I think about evoultion and nature's way.

 

[lulflo]

I don't expect anything, just putting it out there. I believe that if you can imagine it, it can be. I also don't like the idea that we are the only intelligence out there. If we are, then we are in big trouble. Just another view my friend.


Farang - Larry

 

[lonecoyote]

Interesting ideas, lulflo, I think I'll check out that book. I keep an open mind. Are there things in our collective consciousness that we suppress? 47MartialMan there's stuff all over the internet about Clovis man, Eastern New Mexico University has a kind of interesting "day in the life of" kind of thing somewhere on their website. He lived in the time of saber tooth tiger, dire wolf, mammoth, giant buffalo and North American camel. Don't really know about martial arts and Clovis Man but feel that he did so many things that were difficult to accomplish, and did them well that it makes no sense that he did not have a way to deal with enemy bands who were competing or hostile. Spear would be as deadly to man as to beast, obsidian knife is sharper than finest steel scalpel, and digging stick would be a formidable weapon as well. Knowledge would have been passed on father to son, hunter to hunter. Hunter gatherers like Clovis Man existed before war, but there would still be conflict between humans. Hope I'm not getting too far off topic. Tell us of your theories 47MartialMan, am I on the wrong track here? Do you need to have a sedentary society, written language, etc. (civilization, I guess) to have a martial art? Do the few extant hunter gatherers (bushmen, aborigines) have martial arts? Aren't we all supposed to be talking about kung fu, instead of other worlds and "cavemen"? Am I the only one glad we're not?

 

[47MartialMan]

Well, perhaps one needs to examine, by definiton or description on what is a martial art and what is a tool or methods to hunt. If one is to study that man, anywhere, developed a tool or methods to greater their chances for food foraging, then could these be uses against another tribe/man? In other words, how can the tools/methods of hunting be considered a martial art just because they become the same for defense against another man.

If one is to study the definition and decription of each word-martial and art, then these may not apply to food gathering/hunting.

A good view could be thus a martial art is a system of fighting, per a regiment or students of study. Per it is a teaching passed to others, generally on a systematic scale for the only purpose to produce harm against another man. So a spear used for hunting, is not one designed, initially, with the purpose to become a martial art. So, such a pre-civilized mankind actually be considered as having a martial art?

Is a martial art needed or has been needed for humankind survival? Or had it become a means of humankind to dominate another? Thus, the need for defense against each other (man) a martial art not the same as hunting for food/survival.

What are the considerations or criteria of what a martial art should be?

For example, a sword, sword making, and practices, is a martial art for the fact that it was designed or destined to be used against another man.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Besides two arms/legs, how COULD it resemble?

By your answer I am guessing that you know of some targets and methods of attacking those targets that modern man does not possess. Could you elaborate - carefully avoiding modern art similarities - for me?

 

[47MartialMan]

I don't expect anything, just putting it out there. I believe that if you can imagine it, it can be. I also don't like the idea that we are the only intelligence out there. If we are, then we are in big trouble. Just another view my friend.


Farang - Larry

Hey, with respect, your entitled to your view....

But just because I can imagine something (like a mirage or dragons), doesn't mean it CAN be. (Not shouting-just emphasis)