Martial Arts Orgins, Where did they come from????

[Bammx2]

I have traced many martial art origins to either India or Egypt. India branching towards Asia. Egyptian branching to Persia and Europian. In summary, martial arts came from the dawn of man verses man. Advances in man over man continued as human conflict continued.

guess that would be........

caine vs. abel?!

depending on what you choose to believe..................

 

[47MartialMan]

nah...not getting biblical but historical......

 

[Bammx2]

nah...not getting biblical but historical......

I totally agree with your previous statement.....

I just couldn't resist

 

[47MartialMan]

yeah....but there are some people that believe that it is unholy or non-Christian to practice.....

 

[VSanhodo]

yeah....but there are some people that believe that it is unholy or non-Christian to practice.....

Until recently I lived in South Carolina, an area known as the Bible belt. I cant tell you how many times i would get phone calls from ppl telling me I was practing / teaching or Advocating satan worship. Sad part is most so called Christians are simply not very learned in the Bible. There are numerous references to Trained Servants and Martial Arts in the Bible. Further when you really look at many different Asain cultures and or religions Christina usually get it wrong.
Buddah, Confuscious, Allah, and others are not worshiped as gods rather are seen as prophets, Question is Prophets .of whom???????????
Many ppl confuse bowing as a sing of being subservant or that it has a religious meaning. Nope not even close. Desease was nealry unheard of till the English and Spainards help to spread it across the world and how did they do this? They introduced something new to many cultures, THE HAND SHAKE. In many parts of the Africa, Asia, and numerous Island chains, bowing was and in many cases is seen as a greeting and a means of respect. We shake hands, they Bow, Yet because they dotn do it the way we do it we tend to find EVIL in thier ways. Probably the same way the find what we do as different.
There was young Chinese boy who attended a Texas University when asked what he liked about the United States, He said your country is beautiful and offers many opportunities for all. And when asked what he disliked, He simply said you can find fault anywhere. And the final question asked of him was what do you find different about the ppl here in the USA? He reply was priceless. He said the ppl here in the USA are wonderful, the only thing I find odd is the funny slant of their eyes.
WE always have to be right here in the US, it has to be our way or its wrong or its bad. When I read that story It gave me a new sense of perspective and by he way the story is true. If I told it wrong thats my fault.
Take care
San

 

[Simon Curran]

yeah....but there are some people that believe that it is unholy or non-Christian to practice.....

That is why I am glad our training hall is directly above a "Church of the Mission" meeting hall, they must love it when I turn up to work out on the bags and play my "satan worshipper" hard rock and hard house...

 

[Loki]

Ok, I would be amoung the first to say I personally believe the Ancients of old were probably some amazing ppl. Further, I think much of what is called martial arts today should be called Martial BS. Clearly the ancients of old were very very accomplished Martial Artist and I also think there are only a few ppl today who are even remotely close to the old skill.

I don't think it's fair to view modern man in that context. These were people who devoted their lives to martial arts, starting very early in life and, like many names of Japanese arts, made martial arts their "way". They literally lived martial arts, on all it's levels and aspects. Very few people can devote themselves like that to one thing today. There are other things to focus on too, like a career, family life etc.
Few people can "live" martial arts like it used to be done, but that doesn't make the rest BS, IMO.

Back to the original topic, it all depends on how you define a martial art. You can even say Homo Erectus, about half-way between chimps and Homo Sapiens (if you don't think Darwin was full of it), used a martial art when males sought supremacy among their kind. Just a thought.

~ Loki

 

[VSanhodo]

I don't think it's fair to view modern man in that context. These were people who devoted their lives to martial arts, starting very early in life and, like many names of Japanese arts, made martial arts their "way". They literally lived martial arts, on all it's levels and aspects. Very few people can devote themselves like that to one thing today. There are other things to focus on too, like a career, family life etc.
Few people can "live" martial arts like it used to be done, but that doesn't make the rest BS, IMO.
(End of Quote)

Thanks for your post. While clearly there are a few martial artist today whose skill would even come close to comparing of those of the Ancinets. I stick to my guns when I say MOST think they know martial arts but the vast majority are fair at best.
When the term is used that Martial Arist of old lived Martial arts, contrary to popular belief it dies not mean they woke up at 6 am trained in the arts till dusk, Went to bed and did it all over again. what is meant by that term is that they were taught that martial arts are designed to be natural movements not cookie cutter, where everyone does it a very specific way. The way they pulled thier nets in, the way they chopped their crops, even the way the would use a Bo to break apart Sod after the field had been frshly plowed were all taught and designed to be natural. Training as a way of life meant just that, They trained in their daily lives and that work was training. Watch young man chop down a tree with an Ax he usually he just flailing away, then watch somone who has done it for years and they use unified body movements.
Now on a personal level, I hope you dont take it personally when I say MOST ppl of today who train are not Martial Artist they are BS aritst. I do lump the vast majority fo ppl inot this catagory. But those are ppl Ive met. Ive been blessed enough to have been affored the opportunity to have trained for just over 35 years and have been all over the world, So I think it is fair to say Ive met quite a few ppl in the arts. I dont know you, so I cant say you would fall into the BS group or not. Now if you want to send me a video and want me to critique it I will give you my honest opinion of it.

(Quote)
Back to the original topic, it all depends on how you define a martial art. You can even say Homo Erectus, about half-way between chimps and Homo Sapiens (if you don't think Darwin was full of it), used a martial art when males sought supremacy among their kind. Just a thought.

~ Loki[/QUOTE

I am mearely saying the first organized Martial system had its roots in or from the contient of Africa. Picking up a stick and bashing someone over the head is not an art form thats basic survival and slef defense, far different from a well thought out, teachable, repeatable organized system.
Now do I think Darwin was full of it???????? No only half full, I do believe in Creation and Evolution, first we were created and since then we have and will continue to evolve.
On the outside of your forearm there is a nerve, the linky side of the forearm halfway between the elbow and the wrist. It is tucked to the underside of the arm for protection. There is a way to manipulate this nerve to the side fo the bone and press and cause extreme and I do mean extreme pain and other interesting things happen to you as well. I dont recall exactally where a either Mummy or frozen Caveman was found but it was a very old dead guy. When they scanned his body, they found that this nerve had use to sit slightly above the outside bone just to the top. there were several other minor differences in him and us. So I go back to whatI said before, I believe we were created and since we have and continue to evolve.
Thanks again for your post
San

 

[Brother John]

The "Martial Arts"
ORIGINAL or not...
come from man's innate need to do Two things:
#1: Struggle with nature and other men.
#2: To give order to anything they do (like giving 'order' to #1)

When you have a 'way' of struggling, and seek to give it 'order' in order to improve it and pass it on...that's a martial art, and you can find them in every country on the face of the Earth.
The Orientals had a culture of preservation of things already learned, LONG before this trend took hold in the West...so passing along these 'ordered' ways of fighting was more systematic...that's why the Asian martial arts are more elaborate and well known.

Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

While clearly there are a few martial artist today whose skill would even come close to comparing of those of the Ancinets. I stick to my guns when I say MOST think they know martial arts but the vast majority are fair at best.
San

Ya know what, I don't think it has a thing to do with modern vs. ancient. It has to do with NEED.
Those who trained in the "Feudal era" of whatever country and whatever age, did so with the seriousness of one who KNEW that danger wasn't just possible...but MOST probable and that death from violence was their most common end. So their training was different. They didn't have to take "legality" into consideration. They didn't train for all these extraneous 'reasons' like a hobby or a sport or 'self improvement'... they did so with their life at stake.
Personally: I'm glad I don't have to train under those circumstances.
BUT: Were you to bring those circumstances back, those of us with the greatest martial knowledge, understanding and ability.... would kick it up a knotch....
IT's a matter of different contexts.
They were Deadlier because they NEEDED to be. We have it safer and easier.

Your Brother
John

 

[James Kovacich]

How about the martial arts that we can trace back still exist in 1 form or another?

SHINJO CHOKEN
SHURI TE

TODE SAKUGAWA
SHURI TE

SOKON "BUSHI" MATSUMURA
MATSUMURA SHORIN RYU

NABE "OLD MAN" MATSUMURA
MATSUMURA SHORIN RYU

HOHAN SOKON
MATSUMURA SEITO SHORIN RYU

YUICHI KUDA
GRANDMASTER
MATSUMURA KENPO SHORIN RYU

GEORGE ALEXANDER
MATSUMURA SHORIN RYU
FOUNDER ISKKF

 

[Miles]

I think the martial artists of today and the recent past are probably some of the best in the history of the world. If two people start training and one dies when he's forty and the other lives into his 90's...who amassed the most knowledge, who would you rather have learned from?

I agree with Bignick. Progression means things and people get better. There is no denying that Mozart/Bach etc were awesome. But whose to say Carlos Santana or Brian May is any less accomplished?

Also, from purely physical standpoint, we have better nutrition and better education that any time in history. Look at just the last 100 years-Wright Bros achieve first flight and less than 70 years later we have put men on the moon.

We are able to videotape someone's performance and analyze it from a physics/bio-mechanical/chemical perspective (Discovery Channel will have that XMA show on I think 3/31-even if you are a staunch traditionalist, you will enjoy how they hook up the various artists and display their techniques on computers/graphics).

Miles

 

[rmcrobertson]

Since I don't buy the notion that Technology Makes You God, I'd point out that our precursors in the many martial arts lived in far more-dangerous societies and often had to employ their arts in ways that may have given them an advantage or two.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

I'd point out that our precursors in the many martial arts lived in far more-dangerous societies and often had to employ their arts in ways that may have given them an advantage or two.

I was thinking along these lines. If your training includes fighting for your survival, it stands to reason you'd need to be good.

 

[47MartialMan]

VSanhodo,

Speaking of bowing:

http://www.spiritualminds.com/articles.asp?articleid=2114

 

[47MartialMan]

VSanhodo:
I am mearely saying the first organized Martial system had its roots in or from the contient of Africa. Picking up a stick and bashing someone over the head is not an art form thats basic survival and slef defense, far different from a well thought out, teachable, repeatable organized system.


Why do you say this? Africa was never the most ancient human habitant. And as far as a martial art, it is not a martial art when one examines the words and definition per each word-martial-art. So if you have a bunch of cavemen hitting each other with sticks and stones, then they were never in a martial art.

 

[47MartialMan]

Ok, I admit I started this and was somewhat vauge at best, but the truth of the matter is most ppl dont even know where Africa is must less that is a continent. As such I perhaps did not give as much detail as perhaps I should have. Ok as I understand it there were hyroglyphs which were found in Mesapotamia modern day Egypt whic is located within the continent of Africa. The Africian cluture gave us the earliest known written and spoken language, the oldest known forms of medicine, Astronomy, Math, chemistry, Engineering, and the list goes on and on and on.
I met and have known Ahaiti Kilindi Iyi for several years now and if you ever have the opportunity to train with him and or attend one of his seminars, his knowledge of African as well as numerous other clutures is fascinating.
Now with all this being said to reiteritate my point, The earliest forms of Martial Sciences were founded in Africia. I use the term Sciences vs Art for some personal reasons, but essentially mean almost the same for sake of conversation.
As I indicated previously, I welcome and and all opinions and posts. I never have to agree with you to respect your opinions. Sooooooooooo post away.

As a side note the word Mesoptamia and Egypt translated means "Men with brown or bronze faces"

Thanks
San

But how can this be so? Have you ever studies India's roots/history? Have you ever studied Iran's roots/history?

 

[MichiganTKD]

I don't really buy the notion that martial arts, especially Oriental martial arts, didn't exist until Boddhidarma introduced them to China. To accept that is to say that the reality of fighting to survive against other people and animals didn't exist until he introduced martial arts.
I do think that each country and region developed its own core system, based on several principles:

1. The geography of the land. The techniques of a mountanous country like Korea are going to be different than a marshy area like Southern China. Very difficult to get horses through rocky mountainous terrain. As a result, Koreans undoubtably walked more, leading to stronger legs.
2. Who you trade with, culturally and commercially. it stands to reason that if you trade with your neighbors, you will slowly absorb aspects of their culture. It is no accident that many aspects of Tae Kwon Do are Chinese based.
3. The need of the times. Absolutely the art of the Samurai and the Hwa Rang was different than what we do now. When your life depends on hard training, you will have a different mentality than one who practices for recreation or sport. It is no accident that as Korea entered a period of Confucianism and peace, Tae Kyun became relegated to a children's game and sport.

 

[47MartialMan]

The "Martial Arts"
ORIGINAL or not...
come from man's innate need to do Two things:
#1: Struggle with nature and other men.
#2: To give order to anything they do (like giving 'order' to #1)

When you have a 'way' of struggling, and seek to give it 'order' in order to improve it and pass it on...that's a martial art, and you can find them in every country on the face of the Earth.
The Orientals had a culture of preservation of things already learned, LONG before this trend took hold in the West...so passing along these 'ordered' ways of fighting was more systematic...that's why the Asian martial arts are more elaborate and well known.

Your Brother
John

Wow, I had never thought of Asian arts from this perspective.

 

[47MartialMan]

I don't really buy the notion that martial arts, especially Oriental martial arts, didn't exist until Boddhidarma introduced them to China.was different than what we do now. When your life depends on hard training, you will have a different mentality than one who practices for recreation or sport. It is no accident that as Korea entered a period of Confucianism and peace, Tae Kyun became relegated to a children's game and sport.

You are quite incorrect. You need to study the history of China and realize that martial arts existed in China CENTURIES before Bodhidarma. And Bodidarma is not credited with teaching martial arts. For this, you need to study the history of Buddhism.