Martial Arts Orgins, Where did they come from????

[VSanhodo]

Hi Folks

Ok I have to admit I started a different post and without going into alot of detail, it kinda got side tracked from what I meant it to be. So to help clarify myself, I elected to begin this post.

Many ppl believe the Martial Arts began in China or India, a few think Japan or Okinawa. Personally I believe the the first Martial Arts what I refer to as O.A (Original Art) began in Africa. Now I know this will probably go against the grain of many and I can live with that.
Asl always I am open to any and all posts and opinions.
Thanks
San

 

[Simon Curran]

To be perfectly honest, I believe that the martial arts have always existed in one form or another, what I mean by that is one skilled fighter teaches someone else, who adds to his learning, and so on ad infinitum

 

[Bammx2]

I think this is question that can never fully be answered.

Mainly due to lack of written evidence and,in some cases, total biasness.
BUT...
there is no denying the fact that the oldest written form of a combative system,also known as a martial art, was found in an egyptian tomb(not sure which one) and dated back alomost 4000 years.
That is the oldest "documented" system found...so far.
If there is an older..please,enlighten me.
As for being african....most people forget,africa is a continent and has over 50 countries in it.
So you are right...and wrong.
as we all are

and like you...
I open to more info as well.this is a subject I have found almost all aspects,opinions and comments welcome.

 

[Miles]

This can be a fascinating thread, I hope it becomes so with the input of knowledgeable folks.

I have not seen the documentation that BAMMX2 mentions concerning Egypt, or that stating Africa (though it would not surprise me, quite frankly) may be where martial arts orginated. I believe that folks have been fighting each other for survival/land/food, etc. since the beginnings of time-they naturally discovered techniques which worked, catalogued them over time, and taught them to others. Where this started, I have no idea, but I have read India (FWIW).

Can either of you share where you obtained this information?

Thanks in advance!

Miles

 

[Bammx2]

History and Discovery channeln to start with.

As for what I read....
That was before a MA forum was ever even thought of!
But I'm quite sure if you go to egypt,the tomb is still there!

 

[The Kai]

As Egypt (or africa) was one of the areas to start devolping a culture, civilization-I'm think that they would be the origins of a lot of things

However to say that the Ancient egyptian martial arts, practiced thousands of years ago would look anything like what we have today?? Probably not
they may have entailed just the passing on of 1 or two moves

 

[Bammx2]

if you are reffering to the chinese/korean/japanese...etc, styles we are all used too...

then no.
you will never get an answer.
If you are talking of recorded teachable systems of combat,
then yes...egypt has the oldest WRITTEN system on the planet.

for now...here is a start:
http://www.schoolofselfdefence.com/europeanclosecombat.htm


I am searching for better info at the moment.
As it stands now..I stand corrected.
The oldest is NOT 4000 years old...its about 6000 years old.
My bad.

 

[VSanhodo]

Ok, I admit I started this and was somewhat vauge at best, but the truth of the matter is most ppl dont even know where Africa is must less that is a continent. As such I perhaps did not give as much detail as perhaps I should have. Ok as I understand it there were hyroglyphs which were found in Mesapotamia modern day Egypt whic is located within the continent of Africa. The Africian cluture gave us the earliest known written and spoken language, the oldest known forms of medicine, Astronomy, Math, chemistry, Engineering, and the list goes on and on and on.
I met and have known Ahaiti Kilindi Iyi for several years now and if you ever have the opportunity to train with him and or attend one of his seminars, his knowledge of African as well as numerous other clutures is fascinating.
Now with all this being said to reiteritate my point, The earliest forms of Martial Sciences were founded in Africia. I use the term Sciences vs Art for some personal reasons, but essentially mean almost the same for sake of conversation.
As I indicated previously, I welcome and and all opinions and posts. I never have to agree with you to respect your opinions. Sooooooooooo post away.

As a side note the word Mesoptamia and Egypt translated means "Men with brown or bronze faces"

Thanks
San

 

[Akashiro Tamaya]

When man learned to pick up sticks and used it to hunt and kill animals as well as other outsider, its pretty much where it all started. Then it just went downhill from there.... :uhyeah:

 

[VSanhodo]

When man learned to pick up sticks and used it to hunt and kill animals as well as other outsider, its pretty much where it all started. Then it just went downhill from there.... :uhyeah:

Ok, I would be amoung the first to say I personally believe the Ancients of old were probably some amazing ppl. Further, I think much of what is called martial arts today should be called Martial BS. Clearly the ancients of old were very very accomplished Martial Artist and I also think there are only a few ppl today who are even remotely close to the old skill. But come on to say that the best ppl could do was pick up a stick to hunt and kill and then it went down hill from there? Come on guy are the ppl of today really that bad??? I think most are, but not all.

Thanks for your post
San

 

[James Kovacich]

Ok, I would be amoung the first to say I personally believe the Ancients of old were probably some amazing ppl. Further, I think much of what is called martial arts today should be called Martial BS. Clearly the ancients of old were very very accomplished Martial Artist and I also think there are only a few ppl today who are even remotely close to the old skill. But come on to say that the best ppl could do was pick up a stick to hunt and kill and then it went down hill from there? Come on guy are the ppl of today really that bad??? I think most are, but not all.

Thanks for your post
San

Don't be so hard on yourself. Theres still time to change your ways and break away from the old and embrace the new :uhyeah:

 

[VSanhodo]

Don't be so hard on yourself. Theres still time to change your ways and break away from the old and embrace the new :uhyeah:

Im not hard on myself at all. I do have to say I do truly believe what I said in my post. I personally enjoy the ways of old and some of the new. I would have to say 99.8% of the ppl whom Ive met who wear a black belt, claim to Masters, Grand Masters, Sokes and the list goes on are not worth the air they breath. I use to ask my students a simple question.
Who won the MTV or VH-1 Vidoe awards last year??? The next question, Who won at the Oscars or Grammy's??? The vast majority of the time ppl simply dont know these answers. I dont either, but when you aks ppl who was Bach, Mozart, Beethovan, Edgar Allen Poe. The vast Majority of ppl know the answers to those questions. My point being the Classics never die, there are just fewer and fewer ppl who know them, know of them and enjoy them. But BS artist are popular for a year maybe longer then they simply fade away.
Hard on myself???????? God Im still grabbing my ribs from laughing so hard. I needed that, I was having a good day but you made it better by helping to lighten my day and bring some laughter into it, Thanks.
Keep the posts coming
San

 

[James Kovacich]

Hey, I go back and forth on the traditional vs. eclectic concepts talks and it makes good discussion and I definately have no reason to dislike someone I don't know. Just have some fun. Have a good day! :asian:

 

[bignick]

Ok, I would be amoung the first to say I personally believe the Ancients of old were probably some amazing ppl. Further, I think much of what is called martial arts today should be called Martial BS. Clearly the ancients of old were very very accomplished Martial Artist and I also think there are only a few ppl today who are even remotely close to the old skill. But come on to say that the best ppl could do was pick up a stick to hunt and kill and then it went down hill from there? Come on guy are the ppl of today really that bad??? I think most are, but not all.

Thanks for your post
San

The ancients of old....amazing? Maybe. But these people were only living a very short while, barely into their 30's or shorter. Even starting at 4-5 these people could only amass 25 years of training...if they stayed healthy. My judo/jujutsu instructor has been training for over 40 years. I think the martial artists of today and the recent past are probably some of the best in the history of the world. If two people start training and one dies when he's forty and the other lives into his 90's...who amassed the most knowledge, who would you rather have learned from?

 

[VSanhodo]

Hey, I go back and forth on the traditional vs. eclectic concepts talks and it makes good discussion and I definately have no reason to dislike someone I don't know. Just have some fun. Have a good day! :asian:

Hi again
No offense meant or taken, I was having fun and thats how it was meant.
Thanks again for your posts and keep them coming

San

 

[The Kai]

Ok, I admit I started this and was somewhat vauge at best, but the truth of the matter is most ppl dont even know where Africa is must less that is a continent. As such I perhaps did not give as much detail as perhaps I should have. Ok as I understand it there were hyroglyphs which were found in Mesapotamia modern day Egypt whic is located within the continent of Africa. The Africian cluture gave us the earliest known written and spoken language, the oldest known forms of medicine, Astronomy, Math, chemistry, Engineering, and the list goes on and on and on.
I met and have known Ahaiti Kilindi Iyi for several years now and if you ever have the opportunity to train with him and or attend one of his seminars, his knowledge of African as well as numerous other clutures is fascinating.
Now with all this being said to reiteritate my point, The earliest forms of Martial Sciences were founded in Africia. I use the term Sciences vs Art for some personal reasons, but essentially mean almost the same for sake of conversation.
As I indicated previously, I welcome and and all opinions and posts. I never have to agree with you to respect your opinions. Sooooooooooo post away.

As a side note the word Mesoptamia and Egypt translated means "Men with brown or bronze faces"

Thanks
San

Again any Martial Art of egyptian or african orgins has probably died out and what you are seeing today is a modern interpretation based on writings that were left behind. We can romantize about how advanced the ancients were, but that is not based in reality

 

[bustr]

Originally Posted by The Kai

As Egypt (or africa) was one of the areas to start devolping a culture, civilization-I'm think that they would be the origins of a lot of things

However to say that the Ancient egyptian martial arts, practiced thousands of years ago would look anything like what we have today?? Probably not
they may have entailed just the passing on of 1 or two moves

Actually Kai...

http://www.attikai.com/attjack/about/5mid.jpg

http://www.aafla.org/OlympicInformationCenter/OlympicReview/1938/ORUE1/ORUE1c.pdf

http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes...ivilization/Egyptology/Sports/ancsportsg1.htm



VSanhodo

As a side note the word Mesoptamia and Egypt translated means "Men with brown or bronze faces"

Mesopetamia means between rivers. Egypt is a Greek pronounciation of Hiku-Ptah meaning "House of Ptah". Khemet means black and refers to the rich black soil of the Nile valley.

 

[James Kovacich]

I remember seeing that documentary. Interesting but it is true in my opinion that there no remnants of it left.

How about the martial arts that we can trace back still exist in 1 form or another?

 

[James Kovacich]

How about the martial arts that we can trace back still exist in 1 form or another?

TEIJIN FUJIWARA
DAITO RYU AIKI JU JITSU

TSUNEMOTO FUJIWARA
DAITO RYU JU JITSU

YOSHIMITSU MINAMOTO
YOSHITSUNE

YOSHIKIYO MINAMOTO
TAKEDA RYU


SOGAKU TAKEDA
TAKEDA RYU


KOSEI KUNIBA
SEISEN RYU

TADAHARU YAMAGUICHI
KAMISHIN RYU

KEN PENLAND
SHORINJI RYU JU JITSU

GEORGE ALEXANDER
SHORINJI RYU JU JITSU

 

[47MartialMan]

I have traced many martial art origins to either India or Egypt. India branching towards Asia. Egyptian branching to Persia and Europian. In summary, martial arts came from the dawn of man verses man. Advances in man over man continued as human conflict continued.