Martial Arts? It's BS.

[Steve]

The exercises I'm talking about are quick, they're done at the end of the class in some dojos, and they're also a bonding thing. I'm not talking scrubbing and waxing the floor. And it's tradition... and there's a place for tradition. It's kind of comparable to picking up the mats you used or putting other equipment away at the end of class. Or wiping off equipment at the gym when you're done...

The wrestling team at the local middle school rolls the mats and puts them away at the end of every class. At our BJJ school everyone pitches in a mops the mats, takes out the garbage and throws away any water bottles or whatnot. There's a line where I'd totally agree with Carol, but for me, that's somewhere in the area of instruction. Taking care of the space on a daily, routine level isn't a big deal. When people, kids or adults, are routinely taking on classes as a lead instructor without any compensation, that's a problem for me.

 

[shesulsa]

Gotta disagree with this one. What is wrong with employees cleaning the dojo and students being strengthened in a way that doesn't involve paying a for-profit school for the "priveledge" of being the janitor? Why do commercial schools toss around the words "respect" and "honor" then choose not to respect or honor minimum wage laws? Or child labor laws? If you want students to clean the floor, get them on a W-2 and compensate them according to the law, and ensure they are old enough to legally work and in conditions which they can legally work.

Why not pay a maid to clean your children's room? Because they learn nothing about personal responsibility nor pride in ownership.

When those little buggers grab the sanitizing solution and rub out those mats, pick up gum wrappers and water bottles and clean up after themselves they are learning:

1. The importance of cleanliness in everything
2. The hard work in sanitation that they will have to impart should they become teachers
3. WHY they must shower before and after class
4. to throw their water bottles and labels, gum wrappers, etcetera away properly
5. to *aim* correctly and leave a restroom suitable for someone else's use is *proper* and should be done *everywhere*
6. Cleanliness of one's person, one's restroom, one's training arena and one's gear is not just about the individual, it is about community health
7. We honor ourselves and others when we take the time to care for these things.

Taking care of the arena in which they learn becomes a ritualistic representation of honoring the process. It is an act of love to finish up rounds of violence. We need to remember we do this to better ourselves, not just to get nasty (in more ways than one).

I think it's important for paying students (and yes, even children) to at least put a little effort forward along these lines - if not regularly, then a few times per year, perhaps as a studio improvement project. Proper sanitation should be ensured, of course, by the school owner, even if it means duplicating effort.

This is based on my observations of past and current students and I stand by that.

 

[jks9199]

Again -- I want to stress that there's a point where the line is crossed. Chores like straightening up after class, a quick, basic wipe down of the mats or floors, student teaching... I don't have a problem with. Especially in non-commercial schools. But when you're using someone's professional skills (attorney, accountant, doctor, etc) without compensation, or demanding that people pay for the privilege of saving you work (Tom Sawyer's little whitewashing enterprise leaps to mind today, for some reason...) and running your business for you? That's just scummy.

 

[shesulsa]

Again -- I want to stress that there's a point where the line is crossed. Chores like straightening up after class, a quick, basic wipe down of the mats or floors, student teaching... I don't have a problem with. Especially in non-commercial schools. But when you're using someone's professional skills (attorney, accountant, doctor, etc) without compensation, or demanding that people pay for the privilege of saving you work (Tom Sawyer's little whitewashing enterprise leaps to mind today, for some reason...) and running your business for you? That's just scummy.

I just couldn't agree more.

 

[punisher73]

The wrestling team at the local middle school rolls the mats and puts them away at the end of every class. At our BJJ school everyone pitches in a mops the mats, takes out the garbage and throws away any water bottles or whatnot. There's a line where I'd totally agree with Carol, but for me, that's somewhere in the area of instruction. Taking care of the space on a daily, routine level isn't a big deal. When people, kids or adults, are routinely taking on classes as a lead instructor without any compensation, that's a problem for me.

When I trained in BJJ, we would all pitch in and clean the mats (they were a permanent floor) at the end of each class. I tried out Aikido when I was younger in a traditional type dojo, and same thing, everyone would pitch in and help clean the mat areas and vacuum the cloth covered mats. It was a time of bonding and helped you to feel a part of the place and help keep it nice.

My instructor now used to clean dojo for "free" lessons because he couldn't afford them, what a way to help a kid earn what he wants and help him out. Yes, we can all agree that there are some people who would abuse it, but I don't think that this is the case on a whole.

 

[mxav]

I find myself agreeing with this. If the school is run like a business, then the business should clean it's facilities, not exploit the students. That's pretty cut and dry.

 

[mxav]

I used to wash the floor of my first dojo on a regular basis. (I used to feel like Caine, on Kung Fu.) When I started doing it every week, my Instructor gave me my own key. I was up there at all hours, it was grand!
As a teacher, when my some of my students started teaching - at the very least, they would never pay tuition again. Most of them didn't offer to clean the dojo floor, but some did. I never asked those kind of things from them, purposely. What I did ask for was effort. All of it they had.

That sounds like a more informal ararngement, and the school I most recently attended was like that, I don't see a problem with a set up like that. But when you're talking about a commercial, ala, chain dojo, and it's clearly a business, then be a business and take care of your customers. If you run the dojo like a teacher, ie, more informally, that may be different.

 

[mxav]

Exactly right ,you've got personal trainers who have done a six month course charging people upwards of 80 bucks an hour to show them how to do push ups and lunges down at the local park

For me anyway, that's not the issue, it's the students doing the work for the teacher. In another scenario, in a commercial dojo, you have people paying for instrcution from the teahcer, and you get a brown belt etaching the class. Is that what they're paying for? No, it isn't.

 

[Cyriacus]

I find myself agreeing with this. If the school is run like a business, then the business should clean it's facilities, not exploit the students. That's pretty cut and dry.

Theres alot more to it than that
How Traditional is Your Aikido Dojo? Normally, the Floors/Mats (If Mats are used, Mats. If not, Floors) are Swept before and after each Class. As far as I can tell, its normally by Junior Students.
Its a Tradition, not a Labor. I can understand how it would come across as such at first.

The most Ive ever been asked to do is to push a box of Focus Mitts into a Cupboard; Which in a way, is Tidying up. I cant say I felt too exploited.
And since many Dojos are specifically Dojos, and not Rented Space that does other stuff as well, things like Painting the Walls not only benefit the Trainer, but also You, as a Student. And I doubt they had to Buy the Paint themselves anyway.

Granted, some places would exploit this, and thats a shame. But most of the time, its all in Good Faith.

For me anyway, that's not the issue, it's the students doing the work for the teacher. In another scenario, in a commercial dojo, you have people paying for instrcution from the teahcer, and you get a brown belt etaching the class. Is that what they're paying for? No, it isn't.

And that is more descriptive of a McDojo.
Its ok for a Brown Belt to lead the Warmups or somesuch, but Teach the Class? No.
Theres a line between a Dojo being Commercial, and being a McDojo. The difference is, that one is there purely to make Money whilst keeping everyone happy (McDojo); The other Teaches a Martial Art, and operates to an extent for Profit. Among other things.

Also, apologies for the three Edits. Its tidier than Multiple Replies though.

 

[mxav]

The exercises I'm talking about are quick, they're done at the end of the class in some dojos, and they're also a bonding thing. I'm not talking scrubbing and waxing the floor. And it's tradition... and there's a place for tradition. It's kind of comparable to picking up the mats you used or putting other equipment away at the end of class. Or wiping off equipment at the gym when you're done...

which is fine if that is the dojo's nature, my beef is when a commercial school is doing that because it is putting itself out there as a busienss. You might as well have a Mcdonald's demand the customer fry their own food.

 

[mxav]

Theres alot more to it than that
How Traditional is Your Aikido Dojo? Normally, the Floors/Mats (If Mats are used, Mats. If not, Floors) are Swept before and after each Class. As far as I can tell, its normally by Junior Students.
Its a Tradition, not a Labor. I can understand how it would come across as such at first.

The most Ive ever been asked to do is to push a box of Focus Mitts into a Cupboard; Which in a way, is Tidying up. I cant say I felt too exploited.
And since many Dojos are specifically Dojos, and not Rented Space that does other stuff as well, things like Painting the Walls not only benefit the Trainer, but also You, as a Student. And I doubt they had to Buy the Paint themselves anyway.

Granted, some places would exploit this, and thats a shame. But most of the time, its all in Good Faith.


And that is more descriptive of a McDojo.
Its ok for a Brown Belt to lead the Warmups or somesuch, but Teach the Class? No.
Theres a line between a Dojo being Commercial, and being a McDojo. The difference is, that one is there purely to make Money whilst keeping everyone happy (McDojo); The other Teaches a Martial Art, and operates to an extent for Profit. Among other things.

Also, apologies for the three Edits. Its tidier than Multiple Replies though.

In fairness that dojo is a traditional model, but it's also not a chain school. It's guy whose trained for some time and has a training group, and under that model we all pitch in, some of the younger students have also "earned" lessons in the method described by another poster, there's nothing wrong with that either. I also was referring to an older experience at a TKD school that was a chain school, and the classes as a rule were taught by those of a brown belt rank, and the etahcer was seldom there and there was a posted expectation on the wall that clean up was expected with a rotation that was mandatory right next to the sign stating the dues and when they were due.

In the latter case, the teahcer was rarely there, and it was clearly a McDojo, and in that case exploitation. The current school is more a training so when I refer to "informal" that's what I percieve it as, for clarity.

 

[Cyriacus]

In fairness that dojo is a traditional model, but it's also not a chain school. It's guy whose trained for some time and has a training group, and under that model we all pitch in, some of the younger students have also "earned" lessons in the method described by another poster, there's nothing wrong with that either. I also was referring to an older experience at a TKD school that was a chain school, and the classes as a rule were taught by those of a brown belt rank, and the etahcer was seldom there and there was a posted expectation on the wall that clean up was expected with a rotation that was mandatory right next to the sign stating the dues and when they were due.

In the latter case, the teahcer was rarely there, and it was clearly a McDojo, and in that case exploitation. The current school is more a training so when I refer to "informal" that's what I percieve it as, for clarity.

Fair enough - Mcdojos are Mcdojos for a reason, and its a shame theyre around.
Based on Your Experiences, alot of what Youve said makes a bit more sense in Context to what Youve seen. I was under the Impression You were referring generally to Cleaning Up, rather than Informalities, at first.

Chain Schools come in many variables as well, though. Much like Commercial Dojos. Unfortunately, most of them are, in fact, McDojos. Others though, are People who open Dojos to teach a Martial Art, and also for Profit; As oppose to Profit and also a Martial Art. Ive seen it done right - I cant say I like the Model very much, but I dont object to its existance. Its when they start dumbing things up, and draining the Proper Bases out of what theyre Teaching that it becomes a McDojo.
The main difference, is that Commercial Dojos inclined toward Martial Sports arent so terribly bad. Its when They try to Teach a Martial Art that they tend to become a bit too split in the middle.

We seem to be on the same page, anyway.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

There's reasonable (tidying up) and there's unreasonable (being -expected- to drive an hour to paint the building on your own dime). Lots of drift in between.
If it's free slave labor, not good.
If it's people taking pride in their place, and doing it because they want to, that's good.

Make sense?
Do spring cleaning, everyone who shows up gets some pizza and an extra lesson, great.
You must show up else your next promotions delayed 6 months as 'punishment', not so great.

Etc.


Now, going to the board breakers parlor tricks, which is what they were....I'd like to see him get hit by the -tip- of that 2x4, where the full power is.
Not at a weak pivot point which whip-action causes a stress fracture at a point of little power.

 

[Cyriacus]

There's reasonable (tidying up) and there's unreasonable (being -expected- to drive an hour to paint the building on your own dime). Lots of drift in between.
If it's free slave labor, not good.
If it's people taking pride in their place, and doing it because they want to, that's good.

Make sense?
Do spring cleaning, everyone who shows up gets some pizza and an extra lesson, great.
You must show up else your next promotions delayed 6 months as 'punishment', not so great.

Etc.


Now, going to the board breakers parlor tricks, which is what they were....I'd like to see him get hit by the -tip- of that 2x4, where the full power is.
Not at a weak pivot point which whip-action causes a stress fracture at a point of little power.

Yep.
Theres a Line between, as You said, Helping and being 'forced' to Help.

 

[kbarrett]

There's nothing wrong with everybody pitching in to help keep the dojang/dojo clean, instructors and students working together to keep their school looking great is something we all can relate to, whether your running your school as a business or not, for some of us it's like a 2 home.

Ken

 

[Master Dan]

Well, I admit I only watched a couple minutes of the 2nd video. I'm sorry, I can't take any more. I've disliked Penn Jillette for years. I don't think he's funny, I don't think he's smart, and his snotty attitude pisses me off. I like it when it was the Penn & Teller magic show. He's good at that. Nothing else.

What I did not like from what little I saw was the one-sided approach and out-of-context sound bites. Hmmm, at my dojo, belts cost $10. So I guess I'm being 'ripped off' because I've paid a grand total of $40 in three years for promotions. Whoo, somebody call a cop. And my $50 a month dues, clearly I'm being had. And the fact that the owner nor the black belts who teach draw a salary but do it out of their love for Isshin-Ryu; wow, clearly they're being brainwashed. I sometimes bring in bottled water or cleaning towels for the dojo out of my own pocket; what a scam!

Penn Jillette can kiss my pucker.

Wow have any of you painfully watched the movie Foot Fist Way? one of my senior students down loaded it and just had to have me watch it. I suffered through it and told him never show it again especially to children true it was a painfull look at the commercial Mac Do Jo's but it implied a slam on all martial art and some of it just plain hard to watch because the public in general is being conditioned to believe what it proposes.

I think the main premise of real traditonal MA is that all things are not what they seem to be and the greatests strengths are not readily visable so the most valuable knowledge and benifit is going to come from a dedicated minority removed from the coruption of commercialism and large organizations. Regarding the Dillman mention what did National Geo do?

 

[Cyriacus]

Wow have any of you painfully watched the movie Foot Fist Way? one of my senior students down loaded it and just had to have me watch it. I suffered through it and told him never show it again especially to children true it was a painfull look at the commercial Mac Do Jo's but it implied a slam on all martial art and some of it just plain hard to watch because the public in general is being conditioned to believe what it proposes.

I think the main premise of real traditonal MA is that all things are not what they seem to be and the greatests strengths are not readily visable so the most valuable knowledge and benifit is going to come from a dedicated minority removed from the coruption of commercialism and large organizations. Regarding the Dillman mention what did National Geo do?

Of itself, I think the Movie had some amusing parts. But, as amused as I may have been by some of it, yeah. It sends a bad message.

Im not sure what I think of the second Paragraph, but lets not go off topic now

 

[Josh Oakley]

I watched Foot Fist Way and then laughed my butt off. While one may infer it to be a slam on the martial arts as a whole, the movie itself implies no such thing. And frankly, I laughed because I've known dojos and instructors very much like those portrayed in the movie.

 

[Master Dan]

I was surprised Dillman wasn't featured, but National Geographic already nailed him.

Please explain?

 

[Master Dan]

Of itself, I think the Movie had some amusing parts. But, as amused as I may have been by some of it, yeah. It sends a bad message.

Im not sure what I think of the second Paragraph, but lets not go off topic now

Your right it had some crude humor and many of us have seen in person different examples being done by different people but its painfull when you think of how many peopel judge in general by that representation. On another note I think it was an ATA real Dojang that used its students in many parts of the movie and while I think some of the kids and class was good and great to see them getting exposure it was sad to think of a master or organization allowing underage students to be included in what was clearly a R rated movie with unacceptable language and abusive behavior.