Martial Arts? It's BS.

[Champ-Pain]

I honestly don't mind schools run as a bussiness. What I mind is when they say they are teaching something they are not, for instance those that teach students utter crap and tell them it is self-defense training. In that case it is fraud, and like any bussiness committing fraud, they should be shut down. Just a peeve of mine and yes, I know there would be no way of really implementing such a thing.

I run my school as a business - and I make money by doing so. As much as I love Martial Arts - Judo, BJJ and No Gi Submission Grappling, specifically - I would shut down my school, in a heartbeat - if I ever took a loss... Having said that, I also run a very successful and competetive club, with many Champion students in both Judo and Grappling, with and without the Gi - but even if I had 0 (zero) Champion students, I'd stay open, as long as it remains a profitable business. Being succesful, both in making money and producing many Champions, as well, makes it that much more fun for me. The having fun part, is the whip cream with a cherry on top.

 

[Balrog]

Most of the time, P&T are fairly accurate. They missed the mark by a mile on this one, though. I love their magic show and I think they should stick to that. And Penn? Come train with me for a year. You look like you could use it, and it will change your point of view.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Some of their 'experts' are quite questionable. They've brought in the twit that runs Quackwatch a few times as a medical expert. Some of their stuff is spot on, some of it's for shear entertainment value.

I do however like the idea of models earning a black apron while training topless, and may steal that for a photo shoot idea next year.

The thing is is that on some subjects, they stop all the joking and get real serious. Parts of the cheer leading episode for example they were hard on the industry for not doing more to protect the girls. The drug episode they took the government to task for failing it's job. Etc.

The complaint about schools taking advantage of their students is not new. 1 local school by me has a reputation as requiring all involved to 'contribute'. Your kid doesn't get a chance to test unless you've been an 'involved parent', meaning mom worked the bake sale and dad helped put new gear together.

Yes, their bias's show through, yes it's entertainment, not documentary, but in there are some solid truths. Of course if -I- thought martial arts were all BS we wouldn't be having this chat huh? (BTW, Xmas discount on sokeships, grandmaster status and founderships, contact me for details. )

 

[Josh Oakley]

Actually, I am not a fan of the expectation that students provide free work. When I ran a dojo, only my paid assistants cleaned. Any time students helped out at an exhibition, demo, etc. I would give them extra training as compensation. First off, it helps me remind myself that I am their servant, not the other way around. Second, to me, it's unethical, as my primary driving ethic is TANSTAAFL.

 

[jks9199]

There are some traditional exercises that serve to clean the floor and strengthen the student. I don't have a problem with that. Nor do I have a problem with clearly defined student teaching/apprenticeship. But when the student who happens to be an accountant is expected to keep the books for a commercial training hall, and the guy who happens to be a lawyer providing legal guidance, and so on... Or when paying students are expected to be teaching many of the classes, without supervision and guidance from the head instructors -- those are the cases that I have a problem with. The owner is taking in the money, almost hand over fist in the worst or most flagrant cases, and keeping costs down because the "employees" are paying for the privilege!

On a non- (or even less) commercial club or training hall, it's a bit different. In that setting, yes, members are expected to contribute their talents and skills to supporting the club. But in that setting, the dues are usually rather lower than the commercial dojo, and it's a very different set-up from the ground up.

 

[Carol]

There are some traditional exercises that serve to clean the floor and strengthen the student. I don't have a problem with that. Nor do I have a problem with clearly defined student teaching/apprenticeship. But when the student who happens to be an accountant is expected to keep the books for a commercial training hall, and the guy who happens to be a lawyer providing legal guidance, and so on... Or when paying students are expected to be teaching many of the classes, without supervision and guidance from the head instructors -- those are the cases that I have a problem with. The owner is taking in the money, almost hand over fist in the worst or most flagrant cases, and keeping costs down because the "employees" are paying for the privilege!

On a non- (or even less) commercial club or training hall, it's a bit different. In that setting, yes, members are expected to contribute their talents and skills to supporting the club. But in that setting, the dues are usually rather lower than the commercial dojo, and it's a very different set-up from the ground up.

Gotta disagree with this one. What is wrong with employees cleaning the dojo and students being strengthened in a way that doesn't involve paying a for-profit school for the "priveledge" of being the janitor? Why do commercial schools toss around the words "respect" and "honor" then choose not to respect or honor minimum wage laws? Or child labor laws? If you want students to clean the floor, get them on a W-2 and compensate them according to the law, and ensure they are old enough to legally work and in conditions which they can legally work.

 

[clfsean]

Eh... I lump Penn in with the likes if not outright company of Michael Moore.

His bodyguards know some kind of unarmed martial something. He should call BS on them & see how long the $$$ will keep him from harm.

****.

 

[Buka]

I used to wash the floor of my first dojo on a regular basis. (I used to feel like Caine, on Kung Fu.) When I started doing it every week, my Instructor gave me my own key. I was up there at all hours, it was grand!
As a teacher, when my some of my students started teaching - at the very least, they would never pay tuition again. Most of them didn't offer to clean the dojo floor, but some did. I never asked those kind of things from them, purposely. What I did ask for was effort. All of it they had.

 

[Josh Oakley]

There are some traditional exercises that serve to clean the floor and strengthen the student. I don't have a problem with that. Nor do I have a problem with clearly defined student teaching/apprenticeship. But when the student who happens to be an accountant is expected to keep the books for a commercial training hall, and the guy who happens to be a lawyer providing legal guidance, and so on... Or when paying students are expected to be teaching many of the classes, without supervision and guidance from the head instructors -- those are the cases that I have a problem with. The owner is taking in the money, almost hand over fist in the worst or most flagrant cases, and keeping costs down because the "employees" are paying for the privilege!

On a non- (or even less) commercial club or training hall, it's a bit different. In that setting, yes, members are expected to contribute their talents and skills to supporting the club. But in that setting, the dues are usually rather lower than the commercial dojo, and it's a very different set-up from the ground up.

Mine was a commercial school and part of a chain. It wasn't cheap, though. Not that I made much money, most of it went out to the investors. But because it was not cheap, I kept that in mind with everything I did and wanted to provide the best service I could for them.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Mine was a commercial school and part of a chain. It wasn't cheap, though. Not that I made much money, most of it went out to the investors. But because it was not cheap, I kept that in mind with everything I did and wanted to provide the best service I could for them.

I have no problems with someone making good money out of martial arts instruction. No one seems to mind that tennis coaches, golf coaches, guitar teaches etc etc make good money out of teaching their trade, so why is it so wrong for a martial arts instructor to do well out of their job financially. My instructor makes great money out of teaching MA, its his full time job and only charges $50 a month. As long as what he charges is competitive I couldnt care less what he makes. Actually he is a very good, passionate instructor who gives his all, so if anything I think he deserves to make good coin.

 

[mook jong man]

I have no problems with someone making good money out of martial arts instruction. No one seems to mind that tennis coaches, golf coaches, guitar teaches etc etc make good money out of teaching their trade, so why is it so wrong for a martial arts instructor to do well out of their job financially. My instructor makes great money out of teaching MA, its his full time job and only charges $50 a month. As long as what he charges is competitive I couldnt care less what he makes. Actually he is a very good, passionate instructor who gives his all, so if anything I think he deserves to make good coin.

Exactly right ,you've got personal trainers who have done a six month course charging people upwards of 80 bucks an hour to show them how to do push ups and lunges down at the local park

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Exactly right ,you've got personal trainers who have done a six month course charging people upwards of 80 bucks an hour to show them how to do push ups and lunges down at the local park

....and no one has a problem with them charging that, yet if a martial artist with 30 years experience makes any money out of teaching his trade, then theres something wrong.

 

[Cyriacus]

Exactly right ,you've got personal trainers who have done a six month course charging people upwards of 80 bucks an hour to show them how to do push ups and lunges down at the local park

....and no one has a problem with them charging that, yet if a martial artist with 30 years experience makes any money out of teaching his trade, then theres something wrong.

Yep. Ive seen this a few times. I mean, if it were several hundred Years ago, it wouldnt be too bad. But nowadays, Martial Arts, no matter what System it is, or why Youre Learning it, are something You do, that another Person is going to Teach You, who needs Money to Survive. And thats the way I see it.

EDIT:
Infact, lemme name an Example.
Recently, I saw someone wearing larger-than-usual Boxing Gloves punching a Focus Pad for about the 4th Week in a Row in a Park (Well, more like a big chunk of Grass). I immediately wondered how much He was being Payed to stand there teaching People to Punch Straight instead of Hooking, with No Power, No Speed, No Proper Stances, nothing.

 

[jks9199]

Gotta disagree with this one. What is wrong with employees cleaning the dojo and students being strengthened in a way that doesn't involve paying a for-profit school for the "priveledge" of being the janitor? Why do commercial schools toss around the words "respect" and "honor" then choose not to respect or honor minimum wage laws? Or child labor laws? If you want students to clean the floor, get them on a W-2 and compensate them according to the law, and ensure they are old enough to legally work and in conditions which they can legally work.

The exercises I'm talking about are quick, they're done at the end of the class in some dojos, and they're also a bonding thing. I'm not talking scrubbing and waxing the floor. And it's tradition... and there's a place for tradition. It's kind of comparable to picking up the mats you used or putting other equipment away at the end of class. Or wiping off equipment at the gym when you're done...

 

[jks9199]

Mine was a commercial school and part of a chain. It wasn't cheap, though. Not that I made much money, most of it went out to the investors. But because it was not cheap, I kept that in mind with everything I did and wanted to provide the best service I could for them.

I don't have a problem in concept or principle with with successful commercial martial arts schools. But that success shouldn't come at the expense of the students... For example, a buddy of mine got himself involved in a contract to learn to teach a particular commercial school's program. Now, he had some background and training, so it's not like he was starting from zero... but... he signed this contract, paying I don't know how much, to learn to be an instructor. Next thing he knew, he was leading classes. Not teaching under supervision -- but leading classes. In an art he had limited experience with. And paying for the privilege... Had he been brought up to speed on that style, then begun as an assistant instructor under supervision, eventually towards the end of the contract running classes on his own... No problem. That's an apprenticeship model, right? I can even deal with students being occasional substitute instructors, and no problem at all with teaching as a clear, supervised part of training. But when students are paying for the privilege of coming in and teaching most of the classes... Then there's a problem. And I've heard of it happening.

 

[shihansmurf]

Gotta disagree with this one. What is wrong with employees cleaning the dojo and students being strengthened in a way that doesn't involve paying a for-profit school for the "priveledge" of being the janitor? Why do commercial schools toss around the words "respect" and "honor" then choose not to respect or honor minimum wage laws? Or child labor laws? If you want students to clean the floor, get them on a W-2 and compensate them according to the law, and ensure they are old enough to legally work and in conditions which they can legally work.

QFT!

Every time I encounter a student teacher like that all I can think is "wow, what a scam". It's a pretty impressive con job on the part of the head instructor to get people to pay for working for them. When I stop in at Burger King I don't make my own whopper.

Mark

 

[Josh Oakley]

I don't have a problem in concept or principle with with successful commercial martial arts schools. But that success shouldn't come at the expense of the students... For example, a buddy of mine got himself involved in a contract to learn to teach a particular commercial school's program. Now, he had some background and training, so it's not like he was starting from zero... but... he signed this contract, paying I don't know how much, to learn to be an instructor. Next thing he knew, he was leading classes. Not teaching under supervision -- but leading classes. In an art he had limited experience with. And paying for the privilege... Had he been brought up to speed on that style, then begun as an assistant instructor under supervision, eventually towards the end of the contract running classes on his own... No problem. That's an apprenticeship model, right? I can even deal with students being occasional substitute instructors, and no problem at all with teaching as a clear, supervised part of training. But when students are paying for the privilege of coming in and teaching most of the classes... Then there's a problem. And I've heard of it happening.

Sounds exactly like the school chain I was involved in. But.... that's probably a conversation for PM's as far as my story goes, as that chain is currently involved in a legal battle.

 

[frank raud]

Exactly right ,you've got personal trainers who have done a six month course charging people upwards of 80 bucks an hour to show them how to do push ups and lunges down at the local park

Is the personal trainer showing them how to do pushups, or is it a paying student that is giving instructions, , with or without the watchful eye of the experienced trainer?

 

[Cyriacus]

I just realized something humorous.

Some People: "Bleh. MA dont work in REAL fights."
These People: "Bleh. MA can be too dangerous to use in REAL fights because You might be too effective!"

 

[mook jong man]

Is the personal trainer showing them how to do pushups, or is it a paying student that is giving instructions, , with or without the watchful eye of the experienced trainer?

No I just said that to illustrate the point that you can do a short course in Australia to become a personal trainer it's got nothing to do with an ma school , these people can then charge about 80$ an hour and run bootcamps etc.
One of my students goes to one who meets him at a park where they work out lifting sandbags etc.

The thing is I charge way less than these people do for a 90 min private martial arts lesson and I have about 22 years experience in my chosen system.

People won't bat an eyelid in paying that much to do fitness stuff , but they look at you funny when you tell them how much your lesson fee is going to be.
Maybe fitness training and vanity is more valued in this society than learning martial arts skills I don't know.