Biggest martial art bs stories

[JowGaWolf]

I find it interesting that BJJ still has a certain level of quality expectation and control within its belt system, whereas other MAs have apparently dumped their quality control by the wayside. You're expected to have a pretty high level of technical skill as a BJJ black belt, and because of that it's notoriously difficult to get one. I think that's in large part because your instructor's name is attached to your black belt, so if you suck, that looks poorly on them.

Obviously that isn't the case in all martial arts, and that watering down of standards is why we have the general attitude that belts are just there to hold up pants, instead of being a standard of what your technical skill is supposed to be.

Which leads us once again to this;

I think it all changed when Martial arts started being promoted as Discipline, Respect, and Honor classes. When i was a kid Martial Arts were about fighting and being able to fight. Some people take martial arts classes and have never experience having the "wind knocked out of them" from a punch or a kick. Then the schools here became too strict on fighting at school where a child can get suspended for defending him or herself, Then bullying increased because all of the good kids were more afraid of being suspended than of being beaten up.

I especially liked the part where he took the completely impractical double punch

The double punch is very practical. I've nailed everyone I've used it against. It's not a slow technique at all. I have video of me using it, and they only way you know that I used it, is because you hear comments made about it. Other than that you would have thought I just threw a regular punch. I've shown video of this in MT in the past.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Here is an interview with Hohan Soken who also references that Kusanku was frequently practiced with the "Jiffa" or hair pins in your hands.
FightingArts.com - Interview With Hohan Soken: The Last Of The Great Old Time Karate Warriors ? Part 1

Chotoku Kyan also taught many applications in Kusanku used the Jiffa. Here is a picture of the "weird chamber" I was referencing, but in the Yara Kusanku, which is one of the older versions of Kusanku the hand is completly behind the head. If you look at later versions the chamber is done differently and is more to the side of the head or to the front and is taught as a deflection or chamber.

This move was taught by Chotoku Kyan as pulling out a Jiffa. I am sure that people could assign other applications to it, but this was one of the orginal applications that were passed down that we know for sure.

As an aside, with your "Isshinryu" reference in your screen name. That is also one of the big controversies in regards to Kusanku. Chotoku Kyan taught it as a night fighting kata and Tatsuo Shimabuku taught it as a night fighting kata, yet there are many karate people out there who deny it has applications and strategies to be used at night and say that it is a myth.

Thanks for the link and info (first I've heard of jiffa used by men), but....

While Hohan and Kyan Sensei may have employed/adapted weapons to Kusanku, (Shimabuku a developed a sai version) the kata was likely designed without jiffa, sai or other weapon in mind, their use being a later thought by these great Masters. The photo you show is the move I had in mind, and if the rear hand is really drawing out a hair pin, why is the next move a kick? Where is the stab?

This rear hand (as shown in the photo) is likely in the position after a parry. That hand can now grab the attacker's wrist, and the front hand after the shuto strike (as shown in the photo) can grab the shoulder or back of neck. This is followed by a kick, plant, pivot and takedown. This is one effective and realistic application to the series of moves (as done in some styles and is consistent with Okinawan fighting doctrine.)

As for the night fighting interpretation, it made for a good story told to American soldiers who brought Isshinryu back to the USA. Framing the moon and brushing away branches in the opening move, stomping the ground to distract the opponent in the dark, dropping to the ground after the jumping crescent kick to hide in the shadows, and so on. There are more practical (and less fanciful) bunkai interpretations to these moves that can be used any time of day, IMO. This opinion is shared by some current Okinawan masters.

Suffice it to say there are many stories, versions and misinterpretations in karate due to the lack of written documentation. It is possible that the Americans who briefly studied in Okinawa (usually for less than 2 years, and don't forget, this time period was only 10-16 years after we bombed the hell out of the island and dropped a couple of atomic bombs on their mainland) were not told the true bunkai (oyo or hidden meaning) by the Chauvinistic Orientals (meant with respect).

All we can do is have an open mind, understand the history the best we can, believe what we may, stay true to practical and realistic combat principles, and love the art.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The photo you show is the move I had in mind, and if the rear hand is really drawing out a hair pin, why is the next move a kick? Where is the stab?

I guess this is just me, but some hand movement's are used as distractions. In Jow Ga we have a couple of hand movements that are used to draw the eye's attention from from the strike.

If that raised hand doesn't do any thing, then's it could very well be a distraction that is used which increases the the success rate of the technique. We have to remember that sometimes in martial arts that extra movement of a hand may not have a physical use, but it's possible that it may have a mental use. When people cut techniques in a form short and then complain about it not working. Sometimes it's because they cut out the distraction that actually helps make the technique more successful.

Jow Ga kung fu uses distractions with the techniques which is how I'm able to have a lot of success with landing my techniques. But i throw it away because I think it's useless then I may be throwing away the very thing that makes it work.

Here is how I see it.

The left hand is behind the head.
My thoughts on that. A lot of people will say watch your opponents eyes. Left hand is eye level. So if you are fighting this guy and watching his eyes, that hand will easy draw your attention. Which means you aren't paying attention to the strike that just landed on your neck or on your front guard (lead hand.)

The right hand that has just struck you now you are distracted again. So the right hand that strikes you hides his kick. While your brain is using up seconds to 1st react to the hand behind the head, then 2nd react to the strike to your guard, the kick is now on it's way.. I haven't seen the form, but I would be surprise if a kick follows immediately after. The cross stance also hides your kick and makes you appear to be open when you really aren't. If your brain sees this, then it may suddenly waste more time by trying to react to the fact that you look open.

One of the ways to interrupt the flow of an opponent's attack is to to make your opponent think. Once you do that, he becomes slower and indecisive, which makes it easier to land a successful attack.

 

[Hanzou]

Your 1st comment is wrong. Of course you can practice forbidden moves not allowed in competition. But there is truth to the fact that practice is not the same as actual employment against a live, resisting opponent. But how do you practice deadly or maiming techniques in the gym against live resisting opponents? If all the students are in the ground or hospital, there will be no revenue coming in - not good for business. So, we must settle for kata or other type of practice for these moves. How do they practice killing moves in Special Forces CQC?

Simple; Your partner submits or taps out in practice. This has been known since Jigoro Kano founded Judo 140 years ago. If someone has their partner in a shoulder lock for example (Kimura), the person in the lock knows if the pressure is continued to be applied, their shoulder will be dislocated, so they surrender or tap to their partner. If someone holds a choke too long, they will pass out, so again, they tap out before they lose consciousness. That's how you practice deadly and maiming techniques without harming your partners.

We know these techniques work because there's plenty of evidence from street fights, competitions, accidents, and MMA where people either get choked out, or get their limbs broken. Further, since you practice these techniques against resisting opponents constantly, it increases your ability to pull off those techniques under duress.

 

[Hanzou]

The double punch is very practical. I've nailed everyone I've used it against. It's not a slow technique at all. I have video of me using it, and they only way you know that I used it, is because you hear comments made about it. Other than that you would have thought I just threw a regular punch. I've shown video of this in MT in the past.

Yeah, I'd need to see it being used by someone in a competition or a fight when something is actually on the line.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah, I'd need to see it being used by someone in a competition or a fight when something is actually on the line.

I definitely would use it in a fight, on in a competition. I think I'll be able to get at land at least 3 out of 3 before I need to worry about getting caught. I know why the technique works and the limitations of it. I was explaining the science behind it with my son and he's always trying to be a smart *** about what I say in kung fu. He in that stage where he's going to show that I'm wrong. So I explain the science, then I do the technique as I'm explaining it, and I'm only doing the technique to oneside, then I spot that smartass look on his face like he's going do the opposite of what I'm telling him is a natural reaction of how the body works. So I tell him what I'm going to do. He has already seen me demo it on him 3 times, and I tell him I know what will happen.

My son just knows he can beat nature and show me up. So I do the technique in a different direction and everything that I said about how he would respond and how the body would respond happened exactly how I said it would. He busted out laughing because he know his ole man got him. There's a lot of science in TMA, but often people try to operate outside of the parameters of success.

I actually look at TMA, mainly Jow Ga (cause that's what I do) as a study in human behavior. Which is why I often say trust the technique, Even though it doesn't seem like it, there's a good chance it will work, because it's based on human behavior. Everyone that I've done a double punch on had the exact same reaction and that tells me that there is something about the technique that exploits human behavior and human response. It becomes reliable because it exploits human nature.

People who like to "stir the bot" always know they will be successful in doing so, because they exploit human behavior and how people often react when it comes to personal beliefs. Human nature, human response, human behavior are really consistent. Laws in society are often the same in most countries because human be behavior is that reliable.

A lot of people try to use the double punch as a long technique, but it's actual a close range technique.

 

[Hanzou]

I definitely would use it in a fight, on in a competition. I think I'll be able to get at land at least 3 out of 3 before I need to worry about getting caught. I know why the technique works and the limitations of it. I was explaining the science behind it with my son and he's always trying to be a smart *** about what I say in kung fu. He in that stage where he's going to show that I'm wrong. So I explain the science, then I do the technique as I'm explaining it, and I'm only doing the technique to oneside, then I spot that smartass look on his face like he's going do the opposite of what I'm telling him is a natural reaction of how the body works. So I tell him what I'm going to do. He has already seen me demo it on him 3 times, and I tell him I know what will happen.

My son just knows he can beat nature and show me up. So I do the technique in a different direction and everything that I said about how he would respond and how the body would respond happened exactly how I said it would. He busted out laughing because he know his ole man got him. There's a lot of science in TMA, but often people try to operate outside of the parameters of success.

I actually look at TMA, mainly Jow Ga (cause that's what I do) as a study in human behavior. Which is why I often say trust the technique, Even though it doesn't seem like it, there's a good chance it will work, because it's based on human behavior. Everyone that I've done a double punch on had the exact same reaction and that tells me that there is something about the technique that exploits human behavior and human response. It becomes reliable because it exploits human nature.

People who like to "stir the bot" always know they will be successful in doing so, because they exploit human behavior and how people often react when it comes to personal beliefs. Human nature, human response, human behavior are really consistent. Laws in society are often the same in most countries because human be behavior is that reliable.

A lot of people try to use the double punch as a long technique, but it's actual a close range technique.

Cool.

Again, I would need to see this being used in a context where someone is really avoiding getting their head knocked off. That could be a street fight, a MMA fight, a competition, whatever. Your personal sparring accounts are simply not enough.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Cool.

Again, I would need to see this being used in a context where someone is really avoiding getting their head knocked off. That could be a street fight, a MMA fight, a competition, whatever. Your personal sparring accounts are simply not enough.

You are moving the goalposts a bit, Hanzou. You asked earlier about someone using it against a resisting opponent. While anecdotal evidence isn't great, it's a step toward what you asked for.

 

[Hanzou]

You are moving the goalposts a bit, Hanzou. You asked earlier about someone using it against a resisting opponent. While anecdotal evidence isn't great, it's a step toward what you asked for.

Actually this is what I asked;

Yeah, I'd need to see it being used by someone in a competition or a fight when something is actually on the line.

Play fighting with your friends doesn't really apply.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Your partner submits or taps out in practice.

We are not talking submission holds, here, where one can add gradual pressure over time. My post concerned strikes to the throat, eyes or joint kicks that have immediate results. These are the moves forbidden in competition as there is not a thing as a gradual eye poke or crushed larynx submission. Once again you seem to side step the main point to avoid giving credit to TMA or the techniques found in kata (when properly interpreted.)

 

[Hanzou]

We are not talking submission holds, here, where one can add gradual pressure over time. My post concerned strikes to the throat, eyes or joint kicks that have immediate results. These are the moves forbidden in competition as there is not a thing as a gradual eye poke or crushed larynx submission. Once again you seem to side step the main point to avoid giving credit to TMA or the techniques found in kata (when properly interpreted.)

Actually there are submissions that crush the larynx.

Anyway, no there's no safe way to practice techniques like that, which thus turns them into low percentage attacks, and if you're not practicing them on a consistent basis on a resisting partner, that makes those attacks next to useless.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Actually this is what I asked;



Play fighting with your friends doesn't really apply.

Yes, that's where you moved them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Actually there are submissions that crush the larynx.

Anyway, no there's no safe way to practice techniques like that, which thus turns them into low percentage attacks, and if you're not practicing them on a consistent basis on a resisting partner, that makes those attacks next to useless.

Some of them are next to techniques that can be practiced with resistance. With those, drills can be used to work on developing the mechanics for applying the secondary technique, while the more common technique is used to develop the control and positioning used to get there (for both techniques).

There are others that are fringe techniques from the start.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes, that's where you moved them.

No I didn't. That was the first time I was responding to JowGa.

Some of them are next to techniques that can be practiced with resistance. With those, drills can be used to work on developing the mechanics for applying the secondary technique, while the more common technique is used to develop the control and positioning used to get there (for both techniques).

There are others that are fringe techniques from the start.

Which means nothing really. Take a throat strike for example. What's the general purpose for a throat strike? It's the belief that if you strike the throat you can immobilize your attacker. However, you've never actually hit a multitude of training partners in the throat so you're not prepared for the multitude of variables and responses that come into play if you do it. It's a theory that you've never really tested on a live resisting opponent.

You ever hit a training partner in the throat who had a Boxing background? Nope. You ever hit a training partner in the throat who outweighed you by about 100 lbs and had a thick muscle neck? Nope. You ever hit a training partner in throat who had you in an inferior grappling position? Nope. You ever hit a training partner in the throat and it had zero effect on them? Nope. You ever hit ANY training partner in the throat period? More than likely, Nope.

So what are you basing your proficiency in throat punching on?

Hopes and dreams, that's what.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No I didn't. That was the first time I was responding to JowGa.



Which means nothing really. Take a throat strike for example. What's the general purpose for a throat strike? It's the belief that if you strike the throat you can immobilize your attacker. However, you've never actually hit a multitude of training partners in the throat so you're not prepared for the multitude of variables and responses that come into play if you do it. It's a theory that you've never really tested on a live resisting opponent.

You ever hit a training partner in the throat who had a Boxing background? Nope. You ever hit a training partner in the throat who outweighed you by about 100 lbs and had a thick muscle neck? Nope. You ever hit a training partner in throat who had you in an inferior grappling position? Nope. You ever hit a training partner in the throat and it had zero effect on them? Nope. You ever hit ANY training partner in the throat period? More than likely, Nope.

So what are you basing your proficiency in throat punching on?

Hopes and dreams, that's what.

That's very much overstating the issue. I don't think MMA fighters train live eye pokes (I'll bet it's pretty rare to train them, at all), but the reactions they run into from them don't create mass confusion and huge openings for their opponent. Why? Because most of those reactions are similar to reactions they'd get from neighboring strikes.

So, does it matter if I've ever throat-punched a boxer? Not really. Because I've punched a boxer in nearby locations (fairly, theyve punched me more often), so I know the range and set-up. Does it matter if I hit someone and they don't react? Not really. Because I've punched people in other ways and had them not react. Like any punch, it can have a wide range of results.

Now, if someone is training a throat punch as a high-percentage fight ender, that's a problem for all the reasons you're hinting at: it might not be as effective as they think, it might not work on some people, and it might miss. But if they treat it as a target of opportunity and expect no more than they would from a punch to the liver, then what's the issue?

 

[Hanzou]

That's very much overstating the issue. I don't think MMA fighters train live eye pokes (I'll bet it's pretty rare to train them, at all), but the reactions they run into from them don't create mass confusion and huge openings for their opponent. Why? Because most of those reactions are similar to reactions they'd get from neighboring strikes.

And those are accidental strikes. That's like someone getting their fingers ripped off from getting caught in a gi and saying that ripping someone's fingers off with clothing is an effective technique.

So, does it matter if I've ever throat-punched a boxer? Not really. Because I've punched a boxer in nearby locations (fairly, theyve punched me more often), so I know the range and set-up. Does it matter if I hit someone and they don't react? Not really. Because I've punched people in other ways and had them not react. Like any punch, it can have a wide range of results.

Of course it matters. For example, Boxers and kick boxers tend to tuck their chins, making throat strikes near impossible. So since you've never throat punched a Boxer, you're going to believe that you can actually pull it off, not knowing that your technique is pretty much useless against that type of opponent. That's knowledge you would have known if you actually tried that technique in training against a variety of opponents.

Now, if someone is training a throat punch as a high-percentage fight ender, that's a problem for all the reasons you're hinting at: it might not be as effective as they think, it might not work on some people, and it might miss. But if they treat it as a target of opportunity and expect no more than they would from a punch to the liver, then what's the issue?

Well that's what we're talking about here. People think that since it's a "forbidden technique" it changes the entire outcome when they're employed.

 

[dvcochran]

No I didn't. That was the first time I was responding to JowGa.



Which means nothing really. Take a throat strike for example. What's the general purpose for a throat strike? It's the belief that if you strike the throat you can immobilize your attacker. However, you've never actually hit a multitude of training partners in the throat so you're not prepared for the multitude of variables and responses that come into play if you do it. It's a theory that you've never really tested on a live resisting opponent.

You ever hit a training partner in the throat who had a Boxing background? Nope. You ever hit a training partner in the throat who outweighed you by about 100 lbs and had a thick muscle neck? Nope. You ever hit a training partner in throat who had you in an inferior grappling position? Nope. You ever hit a training partner in the throat and it had zero effect on them? Nope. You ever hit ANY training partner in the throat period? More than likely, Nope.

So what are you basing your proficiency in throat punching on?

Hopes and dreams, that's what.

You just devolved your argument into the silly realm. You just framed your training as 100% , 100% of the time which we all know is bs. You Never practice a drill at reduced speed or power? Use a leg/arm/hand as a target? Do you break the bone of your target every time? Of course not. What @gpseymour described is Exactly the same.
C'mon man. The "Hulk smash!" mantra is getting really old and unbecoming.

 

[Hanzou]

You just devolved your argument into the silly realm. You just framed your training as 100% , 100% of the time which we all know is bs.

Where did I say I train 100% all of the time?

You Never practice a drill at reduced speed or power?

Of course.

Use a leg/arm/hand as a target?

What?

Do you break the bone of your target every time? Of course not.

Where did I ever say I did?

What @gpseymour described is Exactly the same.

No it's not. If I'm rolling with someone and catch them in a Kimura and they tap out, I got them in a Kimura. Why? Because if I keep going in the direction I was going, their shoulder will be dislocated. Keep in mind, I'm rolling against skinny people, huge people, fat people, fit people, short people, tall people, and everyone in between. So if I'm catching all of those people with my Kimura lock, chances are I'll catch someone in a Kimura lock trying to cave my face in, regardless of the variables.

That's quite a bit different than theories about throat strikes and eye gouges that you've never done.

 

[dvcochran]

Where did I say I train 100% all of the time?



Of course.



What?



Where did I ever say I did?


No it's not. If I'm rolling with someone and catch them in a Kimura and they tap out, I got them in a Kimura. Why? Because if I keep going in the direction I was going, their shoulder will be dislocated. Keep in mind, I'm rolling against skinny people, huge people, fat people, fit people, short people, tall people, and everyone in between. So if I'm catching all of those people with my Kimura lock, chances are I'll catch someone in a Kimura lock trying to cave my face in, regardless of the variables.

That's quite a bit different than theories about throat strikes and eye gouges that you've never done.

Correct me it I am wrong but you chose the throat analogy. There are distinct difference in striking versus grappling training. But surely you understand there are tools like a BOB that allow a person to train strikes are full speed AND drills with resistance that allow you to practice an endless amount of scenarios. There is never only ONE way to do a strike/attack/submission right?

So when you are rolling do you do a Kimura lock the exact same way Only when you and your partner are in one specific position? Of course not. But that is exactly how you are framing certain TMA training. You have to think bigger/higher than that. If a person cannot do that I suspect they are going to suck at whatever style they practice.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And those are accidental strikes. That's like someone getting their fingers ripped off from getting caught in a gi and saying that ripping someone's fingers off with clothing is an effective technique.

I rather agree with that. I see most of the fringe technques as things to explore for intellectual curiosity and to try to understand the effect they might have, in case that effect happens. Not much more you can do with it.

Of course it matters. For example, Boxers and kick boxers tend to tuck their chins, making throat strikes near impossible. So since you've never throat punched a Boxer, you're going to believe that you can actually pull it off, not knowing that your technique is pretty much useless against that type of opponent. That's knowledge you would have known if you actually tried that technique in training against a variety of opponents.

Good point. I think the difference is you're thinking of the technique as something to try for. I'm thinking of it as something that either just happens (like most eye pokes in MMA), or is just a matter of availability (so if a boxer keeps his head tucked, you simply don't reach for that technique).

Well that's what we're talking about here. People think that since it's a "forbidden technique" it changes the entire outcome when they're employed.

Some folks do. It has been my experience those folks usually don't have much experience really going at it, even with moderate power, against a resisting opponent.