Martial Arts and Magic

[Tgace]

If there were some "real" energy, there would be some way of detecting/measuring it. doctors can monitor everything from brain waves, heart electricity, nerve impulses, CAT, MRI etc.

The typical explination is that its some "mystical energy" that we havent been able to measure or detect. Antbody with even a rudmentary knowledge of anatomy finds that there are no structures within the body, bone, muscle, nerve or vessel that is supposed to transport this "energy". As its an identical pathway in each of us by the charts, how is it formed. Genetic...mystic?

 

[rupton]

If there were some "real" energy, there would be some way of detecting/measuring it. doctors can monitor everything from brain waves, heart electricity, nerve impulses, CAT, MRI etc.

Well, there is this little thing called bioelectricicty, and by arguing being able to measure "brain waves" and "heart electricity" as above you are indirectly arguing against your own assertion.

The typical explination is that its some "mystical energy" that we havent been able to measure or detect. Antbody with even a rudmentary knowledge of anatomy finds that there are no structures within the body, bone, muscle, nerve or vessel that is supposed to transport this "energy".

The brain, the heart, as you've mentioned above unless you don't think that biologists and anatomists are "Antbody with even a rudmentary knowledge of anatomy." Again, I posit that none of this stuff is mystical. Certainly much of this is theorictical but there is empirical proof also if you look deep enough.

As its an identical pathway in each of us by the charts, how is it formed. Genetic...mystic?

Biological as I've said a couple of times already. And I will continue to say that even as an engineer steeped in scientific principle I do know enough to know I don't know everything so I'm sure I'm certainly wrong about some points. But I refuse to think I know it all and quickly discount everything just because many quacks have given the idea a bum rap. Especially when a little investigation reveals there is something deepr there. Again just my $0.02

 

[rupton]

There's a physical explanation that does not rely on energy.

Hmm, I think this is a non sequitur since physics and energy are inseparable, but since we're not necessarily talking physics here see my previous reply.

 

[Makalakumu]

Manipulation of bio-electricity is well documented medically. Chiropractic medicine has been doing it for a long time and now AMA physical therapy is starting. I broke my clavicle two years ago and part of the rehabilitation of my rotator cuff consisted of well placed electrodes channeling microcurrents.

My Tang Soo Do teacher has a peice of equipment that he uses to mark points on meridians. The instrument measures microcurrents in the body and it picks up "peaks" at the points. When these points are struck in a certain fashion, the "peaks" disappear and one has a dead or weakened arm.

There are other strikes that can happen in conjunction with some of these points that cause "KO" and the meridians involved are either dead or weakened. Whether this effect is caused by blunt trauma or a disruption of the microcurrents is an interesting question. I'm not sure if the two can be separated.

I'm beginning to think that talk of energy ki/chi is somewhat metaphorical for physiological/anatomical causes and effects. One can see a technique described with the use of this metaphor and it works and one can see the same technique described with this metaphor and it still works.

In order to convince me that manipulation of bio-electric currents can be used to subdue an opponent without the manipulation of other physiologic features, I would have to see it done on any participant whether they believe it or not and I would have to see some measureable change in these currents occuring when the desired effect occured.

I've seen a demonstration of a leg kick/arm point combo that caused "KO" but I am not inclined to believe that was anything other then psychology until the above little experiment can be done.

Good discussion. Any other thoughts on this?

 

[Floating Egg]

rupton,

I think it's obvious from Tgace's post that he was refering to the energy that is usually discussed in relation to Chi or Ki. This is not the same as bioelectricity. If you're implying that Ki energy is the same as biolectricity, then you most certainly are heading away from science and into the realm of the mystical. Regardless of how deep you dig, you will not find anything empirical to back up the claims made by Ki practitioners.

upnorthkyosa,

While joint manipulation isn't psuedoscience, Chiropractic is. The theoretical basis of Chiropractic is complete garbage, all stemming from a 19th century grocer that practiced magnetic healing. The so-called pathways that are refered to as meridians do not exist. Your Tang Soo Do teacher should take his instrument and apply for James Randi's Million Dollar Challenge.

 

[rupton]

rupton,

I think it's obvious from Tgace's post that he was refering to the energy that is usually discussed in relation to Chi or Ki. This is not the same as bioelectricity.

OK, I'll bite. Can you elaborate your point? How are they different? Now it seems like we're moving the argument from "energy doesn't exist" to "well, it exists but it's not the same as chi." My point is that many Biologists consider bioelectric energy as the body's energy source; if so where does the energy go? I think it follows that it has to flow through some path, no? As I mentioned at the beginning, my personal thoughts on chi is that it isn't a mystical thing but can be proven biologically when looking at living organisms holistically. Does that differ from other definitions of Chi? Yes, it does but I do think this is certainly more empirical than other definitions.

If you're implying that Ki energy is the same as biolectricity, then you most certainly are heading away from science and into the realm of the mystical. Regardless of how deep you dig, you will not find anything empirical to back up the claims made by Ki practitioners.

My argument has never been that many outlandish claims made by chi practitioners are scientifically correct. My point has been that there certainly is scientifically provable biological points to some of them. To me this is the correct definition of chi that we should be promoting, not the mystical ideology that's been pushed forever. As I mentioned earlier I tend to be a little more scientific in the way I approach things so if presented with empirical evidence either way I'm sold. You mentioned earlier, in response to one of my posts, that meridians where part of the quakery. Fine, what can you give me to replace them? Energy has to flow somewhere right? Even if potential rather than kinetic, it does sometimes get released, no? I think it's accepted in scientific circles that the body generates energy, so, where does it go? I'm not dead set on the idea of energy flowing through specific meridians, but give me something better. Then assiduously argue away the fact that they seem to work. If anyone can do that I'll feel much more enlightened

 

[Tgace]

Read about the ATP cycle. Physicians have very detailed explinations of where and how energy is created in the human body.

 

[Tgace]

http://www.biology-online.org/1/2_ATP.htm
http://www.biology-online.org/1/3_respiration.htm

 

[Makalakumu]

Nerve impulses are transmitted via microcurrent. Interuption of these impulses for any time period will have some sort of effect...

My Teacher in Tang Soo Do and Tai Chi Chuan used the exact same instrument. I have not had a chance to examine it closely, nor have I been driven to do so by curiosity. (to me, ki/chi is more of a martial arts sideshow) However, I did get to use it firsthand in both instances. The results were the same.

I would like to see if I could get my hands on it and take it apart. I suspect that it is similar to one of the pen shaped ampmeters they use on computer circuitry. In fact, they look the same...

I don't know how much this helps...

If James Randi would like test it, fine. He's going to need people to catch him. And then he can claim that the KO was all biological...whatever. It worked. And that is all that really matters.

Whether chi is just a metaphor for some physical effects or not, it should be noted that "some" of this stuff works. I happen to have more faith in the stuff I can explain biologically, however.

 

[rupton]

http://www.biology-online.org/1/2_ATP.htm
http://www.biology-online.org/1/3_respiration.htm

Thank you Tom. Those were very informative. Here's a few more that I dug up as well:

http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookATP.html

http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookglossE.html#electron transport

And here's a real good one on energy transformation and flow vis-a-vis ATP.

http://www.trueorigin.org/atp.asp

So again, this is line with my idea of energy and energy flowing with the ever growing suspicion that I need to abandon my thoughts on meridians ;-) Maybe I need to quit applying the lable chi/ki to my particular thoughts on the subject since they are certainly different and come up with a different/ more accurate description. Scientific, perhaps ;-) Anywho, this is the kind of lucidity I was looking for, thanks again.

 

[rupton]

Not to keep beating the issue but here is another good site dealing with bioelectricty with a side note on ATP. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/bioelcon.html#c1

In particular:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/biology/mempot.html#c1
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/biology/heartelec.html#c1
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/biology/ecg.html#c1
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/biology/actpot.html#c1

 

[Floating Egg]

rupton,

I had a long post prepared, but it was unfortunately lost. I'll remember to type in notepad from now on. After reading Tgace's reply I'll only address one part of your post:

OK, I'll bite. Can you elaborate your point? How are they different? Now it seems like we're moving the argument from "energy doesn't exist" to "well, it exists but it's not the same as chi."

"The use of "bioenergetic" in this context is somewhat ambiguous. This term is applied in conventional biochemistry to refer to the readily measurable exchanges of energy within organisms, and between them and their environment, which occur by normal physical and chemical processes. This is not, however, what the new vitalists have in mind. They imagine the bioenergetic field as a holistic living force that goes beyond reductionist physics and chemistry."

http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Medicine/Biofield.html

upnorthkyosa,

I believe that nerve impulses are transmitted via neurons by the flow of ions across cell membranes. I don't know what your teacher used, but since meridians don't exist, I highly doubt the efficacy of the machine in question or your teacher's ability to KO a person in such a way.

 

[rupton]

"The use of "bioenergetic" in this context is somewhat ambiguous. This term is applied in conventional biochemistry to refer to the readily measurable exchanges of energy within organisms, and between them and their environment, which occur by normal physical and chemical processes. This is not, however, what the new vitalists have in mind. They imagine the bioenergetic field as a holistic living force that goes beyond reductionist physics and chemistry."

http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Medicine/Biofield.html

Thank you for adding that. This is a very informative paper after reading it I feel much more informed.

 

[still learning]

Hello, My curiosity is growing about this magic martial stuffs? I would like to see what the class is all about. (curiosity sometimes kills the cat! - old saying).

It it very common to see ads in magazines claiming to defeat anyone in 10 seconds or less. Many of us seen ads also claiming to be able to get out of any holds and locks? We know somethings can work for some people...

There are many things that can and cannot be explain? Magic are just tricks. Illusion can seem real? Our eyes can be fool?

No one wants to be fool? We do want to learn as much as we can to help us in the martial arts! Just be carefully to the things you want to believe. ..".let the buyer beware" .........................Aloha

 

[Makalakumu]

upnorthkyosa,

I believe that nerve impulses are transmitted via neurons by the flow of ions across cell membranes. I don't know what your teacher used, but since meridians don't exist, I highly doubt the efficacy of the machine in question or your teacher's ability to KO a person in such a way.

Nerve cells are incredibly long. The message that traverses across that length takes the form of an electron(s) passed from ion carrier to carrier. This, in essence, is the same way an electron is passed through a wire. Metal atoms happen to have "lose" electrons and moving electrons "bump" others along the path. If one disrupts this flow, the message does not continue.

Your assertion of the non-existance of meridians may be true, but that assertion alone does not explain the phenomenon associated to said meridians. Perhaps, the path of some of these meridians just happens to fall along the path of major nerves where these micro-currents are flowing...again, "some" of this stuff works.

For instance, a light strike to a point known as stomach 9 would cause KO on any individual. Is that KO an action caused by the carotid sinus reacting the higher blood pressure percieved or is that something to do with interuption of chi? Chi and meridians may not be real, but they do have some metaphorical value.

I believe that "chi theory" if you would allow me to phrase it as such, is an incomplete theory that incompletely explains physical phenomenon. As a cultural artifact, it is valuable, but practically there are other theories that do a much better job.

It gets some things wrong and it gets some things right. Regardless, it provides a starting point for further study.

 

[Floating Egg]

What phenomenon? There isn't a connection between meridians and the actual nerves or organs in the human body. Please, no more anecdotal evidence.

 

[Tgace]

Strike points (like the brachial complex stun) work by disrupting nerve impulses, not Chi. And I believe there was a study that showed that accupuncture "worked" regardless of the placement of the needles. Contrary to the meridian theory. Leading me to believe that its effectiveness is due to either placebo or some sort of endorphan (sp?) release.

Chi as a training metaphor for nerve points is one thing. Believing that if you strike the right points in a special sequence will result in heart failure/death (dim mak) is another thing. One would think that by watching MMA fights that a "chi point" would be struck out of plain old chance, resulting in an "instant knockout". Since so few examples of this seem to exist in "real world" fights, it tends to reduce it mystique for me....

 

[Makalakumu]

Strike points (like the brachial complex stun) work by disrupting nerve impulses, not Chi. And I believe there was a study that showed that accupuncture "worked" regardless of the placement of the needles. Contrary to the meridian theory. Leading me to believe that its effectiveness is due to either placebo or some sort of endorphan (sp?) release.

Chi as a training metaphor for nerve points is one thing. Believing that if you strike the right points in a special sequence will result in heart failure/death (dim mak) is another thing. One would think that by watching MMA fights that a "chi point" would be struck out of plain old chance, resulting in an "instant knockout". Since so few examples of this seem to exist in "real world" fights, it tends to reduce it mystique for me....

"Chi" is many things that I don't understand. The cultural connotations are numerous and duplicitous and it would be interesting to here from a native speaker or someone more familiar with the culture on all the different things the character can mean. My point is that calling something "chi" in a martial arts sense may not have to mean energy. In fact, it may be us westerners that have taken this concept and bastardized it.

Understanding "chi" as a training metaphor has been personally useful for me. It has helped me understand some of the techniques that I've learned because that is the "language" in which they were taught. Later, I've been able to "westernize" some of the knowledge.

BTW - there have been some examples in MMA where various strike points have caused various effects like KO. In one fight, Keith Hackney struck a sumo wrestler in what is known as the gall bladder plexus and dropped him. If you know what to look for, you can find some examples.

 

[Makalakumu]

What phenomenon? There isn't a connection between meridians and the actual nerves or organs in the human body. Please, no more anecdotal evidence.

There is a connection in the sense that the "meridians" frequently attacked in many applications "shadow" the paths of major nerves or other important physiologic features. The connection is deep enough that many high percentage well documented effects like the pressurization of the carotid sinus "just happen" to correspond with major kyusho points that I've learned.

This stuff doesn't have be rocket science and it doesn't have to be incredibly complex disruptions of "energy". It is a cultural artifact that some people, including myself, are using to understand some of the depth in their arts. I don't believe in magic and I don't think this stuff is magic. This, in my opinion, is just another way to reference the body.

 

[TonyM.]

Just because we don't understand how meridians , vessels and pressure points work doesn't mean they don't. I believe it's just science we haven't gotten to yet. We don't understand how aspirin works, yet it does.