Martial Arts Contracts

[shihansmurf]

If a substitute comes in to teach the class, a service is still being provided. People need to accept and understand that things may come up, ie: being sick, death in the family, etc. All things that can't be avoided. If I was scheduled to teach a class, but got sick, and had another BB step in to replace me, again, the service is still being provided, so no refund should be given.

I'll clarify. The occasional instance of this is fine. Life happens, people get sick, etc. What I mean is more like the following...I signed up for a class here in the current area that I am stationed in. The class was through a local civic center. The instructor had a great resume, many years as an instructor, strong lineage, all the selling points. She didn't actually teach the class. A couple of her students did all the teaching, while she sat in a chair on the side of the mat and watched. There were random cancellations of the class, sometimes 3-4 session out of the 8 per month that I paid for. Al of this is well beyond the occasional I gotta miss class because I'm sick or pet hamster died level.

As you said people need to accept that things come up, but there are defininte limits.

So you're telling me that during a storm, when the power gets knocked out for 2 hrs. the utility co. should give 2 hrs of credit? Good luck with that one.

Thus far I've never had a problem when I've elected to force the issue, but I do have a strong personality and don't accept defeat easily. Kinda helps me in my profession as a soldier. A few days ago my internet connection was out for about 12 hours. Over the course of a two hour phone session I made the provider credit me my whopping 74 cents. I know the anount is trivial but i honestly believe that the reason that so many companies are able to ignore valid customer complaints is because too often we allow them to. Seperate issue, I guess, but I'm willing to fight with a company over a triviality if I am right. I pay up if I'm wrong, though. Ultimatly this discussion is all about personal responsibility and I just don't happen to think it is a one way street with the instructor getting a free pass at ignoring his obligations whilst the student is held to task.

Please explain to me how this would even be possible. Lets say that he school has 150 students. How could someone who works a 40hr a week job, possibly fit 150 lessons in?

No, I agree that you're right on the particulars but I think that the idea of Mr. Redmond's Bill of Rights was to exaggerate for effect. The idea being that if the teacher has the option to end the teacher/student relationship due to reasons other than the ones delineated as escape clauses in the contract without negative effects then the student should also have that same ability. Anything else is unacceptable. The balance of power, so to speak, should be even. As it is, it is interestingly skewed in favor of the seller. Not to many other industries have such an imbalance.

Mark

P.S. Woo Hoo, I just made orange belt as a poster!!!

 

[still learning]

Hello, Contracts? ...so many different ways to set one up...the whole idea is to commit a student for the long term.

Everyone knows....students do feel after a while it is NOT for them...therefore will quit...(no matter the age). SCHOOLS know this well and should be fair! about letting them quit.

Many college only charge by the semster and students know it they quit...they will lose their money (an accepted practice) and is in writing too.

Any School that forces payment? .....UM? What is fair?

Remember when you quit too...and came back? ....

Keeping students from quiting? ....whose fault?

Aloha

 

[pete]

come on lets all be straight here.
you can take one of 2 philosophical approaches to running your studio:

1. you invest in the sale and then need a way to cover acquistion costs, or
2. you keep acquisition costs low and retain students through customer loyalty.

in #1, it is expensive in time and dollars to place ads, create signage, hold promotional give-aways, and invest your time in free introductory bla-bla-blas. if you get 5-10% you are doing great, which means you are losing 90-95% of everyone you target! so you can't afford now to 'lose' those that have shown interest. you've made a serious financial commitment to acquisition, now you expect quid pro quo from the customer. unfortunately, this can further deplete your small %.

in #2, you build slowly, rely on word of mouth and other no-cost means of letting people know you exist. you don't give away anything, no free intros, no observation, etc. if a potential student shows up, they can pay for a class and decide whether to come back. its up to YOU as the teacher to connect with the student to give them something they WANT TO come back for. And that continues, every class, every week, with every student. Personally, I do not want a student coming back unless he really wants to be there and is getting something out of it. So in this case, there are no acquisition costs, in fact you get a few bucks for that first class. If the person (or parent) gives flack over the $10 or so for their first class, forget them... they are either not serious, or cheap, and either way more trouble then they are worth.

in choosing #2, we've had incredible retention, like 80-90% since Jan 2006.

once you are going, the only thing a contract will do for you is allow you to obtain credit. a bank will see this as a guaranteed income stream against which you can borrow capital. if that is not a concern, then why bother...

pete

 

[stickarts]

You obviously have never run a commercial school. Quality instruction is only a small part of what makes a successful school. If quality instruction is all it took, the best instructors would have to turn away business. This is far from the case.

I agree. I have seen more schools close because of poor business practice than poor instruction. Most students have no idea what truely goes into running a successful school. There is a tremendous amount of work, planning, and sacrifice that goes on behind the scenes. Most never step up to the plate to try running their own school and a large percentage of those that do try, aren't able to remain open past 3 years. If you (students) currently train at a good school, thank your instructors (or owners)! its not easy!

 

[Laurentkd]

come on lets all be straight here.
you can take one of 2 philosophical approaches to running your studio:

1. you invest in the sale and then need a way to cover acquistion costs, or
2. you keep acquisition costs low and retain students through customer loyalty.

in #1, it is expensive in time and dollars to place ads, create signage, hold promotional give-aways, and invest your time in free introductory bla-bla-blas. if you get 5-10% you are doing great, which means you are losing 90-95% of everyone you target! so you can't afford now to 'lose' those that have shown interest. you've made a serious financial commitment to acquisition, now you expect quid pro quo from the customer. unfortunately, this can further deplete your small %.

in #2, you build slowly, rely on word of mouth and other no-cost means of letting people know you exist. you don't give away anything, no free intros, no observation, etc. if a potential student shows up, they can pay for a class and decide whether to come back. its up to YOU as the teacher to connect with the student to give them something they WANT TO come back for. And that continues, every class, every week, with every student. Personally, I do not want a student coming back unless he really wants to be there and is getting something out of it. So in this case, there are no acquisition costs, in fact you get a few bucks for that first class. If the person (or parent) gives flack over the $10 or so for their first class, forget them... they are either not serious, or cheap, and either way more trouble then they are worth.

in choosing #2, we've had incredible retention, like 80-90% since Jan 2006.

once you are going, the only thing a contract will do for you is allow you to obtain credit. a bank will see this as a guaranteed income stream against which you can borrow capital. if that is not a concern, then why bother...

pete

I have a question sir. Where do you teach? I am curious if you have a commercial property you pay rent to teach out of, or if you have another situation. If you do have a commercial space, how did you pay the bills while building slowly? I think your proposed method is a great one if you can manage to keep the doors open long enough to grow your strong student base. :asian:

I think there is nothing wrong with contracts WHEN USED CORRECTLY. If I have to sign a 5 year lease to rent a space to teach out of why should I not expect my students to do the same (on a shorter term level of course). How can I guarantee my students a place to train with heat, a/c and lights without knowing that I can pay for these necessities every month.
Again, I would love to hear how you managed it.

 

[pete]

I have a question sir. Where do you teach? I am curious if you have a commercial property you pay rent to teach out of, or if you have another situation.

hi laurentkd, first off no need for formalities or 'sir'... everybody just calls me pete. where do i teach? probably one of the most expensive areas in the country vis a vis rent and expenses: Long Island NY, specifically North Shore of LI~. and Yes, i do pay monthly rent for commercial space.

If you do have a commercial space, how did you pay the bills while building slowly? I think your proposed method is a great one if you can manage to keep the doors open long enough to grow your strong student base. :asian:

we didn't start renting space until we already had a student base. we taught at town programs, libraries, parks, in other people's studios, and even in our home building loyalty. by the time we opened, we had student base to cover most of our expenses.

I think there is nothing wrong with contracts WHEN USED CORRECTLY. If I have to sign a 5 year lease to rent a space to teach out of why should I not expect my students to do the same (on a shorter term level of course). How can I guarantee my students a place to train with heat, a/c and lights without knowing that I can pay for these necessities every month.

so, as i do not ask my students for a guarantee or hold any financial leverage that they will continue to train, i can not and do not guarantee that i will remain open. but as far as i can see, neither do those with contracts, etc.

Again, I would love to hear how you managed it.

so i think i was able to answer your questions pretty directly. i also answered the original posters 'bill of rights' question about 9 or 10 posts north of here. we have other info, pictures, schedule and prices all on our web page www.silkwindstudio.com

all in all, this is what works for us. i am not that arrogant to say this is the only way, and yes, there are certain situations that would require different tactics. i just want to make it clear that contracts are not necessary for an ongoing commercial studio in all cases.

pete.

 

[Lynne]

Do you have to sign the 3 year agreement to get into the black belt club? If this is so,and there is no additional fee for the program, then that is one great business strategy. I mean no sarcasm at all there. As a business owner, that is one thought that has never come up in any of the business meetings i have ever attended. I still struggle with one year agreements right now but i will store that thought in the file. A great majority of my students have been with me 5 plus years and if that is to be the norm for the rest of my life (that would be great) then these agreements would help long term students who I have known for years seal in there rates and show banks long-term agreements.

Yes, you have to sign a 3-year contract to get into the black belt club (BBC). No, there is no fee. You are also given a school black belt club patch. (You'd only buy one if you needed a second one for a second school uniform.) BBC members receive 10% off of merchandise which includes uniforms, sparring gear, weapons, books, DVD's, t-shirts, duffle bags, warm-up suits, fleece wear so and so on. Tuition and registration fees are locked in. There is a stipulation that the registration fees be paid in 18 months however.


School-sponsored seminars such as boardbreaking, Bo, and Olympic sparring are open to the entire school and the only costs are for weapons/boards.

Chil-Sung forms, grappling, tumbling, etc., are taught once a month and during regular class time.

I had planned on getting my black belt anyway, so I joined (yes, I wanted to be able to attend more than twice a week, too). Most adults probably know what they want to do after 6 months or so. I was approached while still a white belt but declined. The whole contract thing unsettled me at first.

We have a load of kids in the BBC. I have no idea if that works out well or not.

Most adults are in the BBC (after they reach orange belt).

We look at BBC as a commitment to get out black belt. One certainly doesn't have to join BBC to get their black belt however.

I like the fact that my tuition is locked in. I already receive 50% off because I'm the second family member having enrolled in the school.

 

[stickarts]

Yes, you have to sign a 3-year contract to get into the black belt club (BBC). No, there is no fee. You are also given a school black belt club patch. (You'd only buy one if you needed a second one for a second school uniform.) BBC members receive 10% off of merchandise which includes uniforms, sparring gear, weapons, books, DVD's, t-shirts, duffle bags, warm-up suits, fleece wear so and so on. Tuition and registration fees are locked in. There is a stipulation that the registration fees be paid in 18 months however.


School-sponsored seminars such as boardbreaking, Bo, and Olympic sparring are open to the entire school and the only costs are for weapons/boards.

Chil-Sung forms, grappling, tumbling, etc., are taught once a month and during regular class time.

I had planned on getting my black belt anyway, so I joined (yes, I wanted to be able to attend more than twice a week, too). Most adults probably know what they want to do after 6 months or so. I was approached while still a white belt but declined. The whole contract thing unsettled me at first.

We have a load of kids in the BBC. I have no idea if that works out well or not.

Most adults are in the BBC (after they reach orange belt).

We look at BBC as a commitment to get out black belt. One certainly doesn't have to join BBC to get their black belt however.

I like the fact that my tuition is locked in. I already receive 50% off because I'm the second family member having enrolled in the school.

I started a BBC last year. It runs along roughly the same lines as you describe. It has worked out well for us. The students that plan to be with us long term make a bit more of a committment but also get more benefits such as extra training and discounts.

 

[Laurentkd]

Yes, you have to sign a 3-year contract to get into the black belt club (BBC). No, there is no fee. You are also given a school black belt club patch. (You'd only buy one if you needed a second one for a second school uniform.) BBC members receive 10% off of merchandise which includes uniforms, sparring gear, weapons, books, DVD's, t-shirts, duffle bags, warm-up suits, fleece wear so and so on. Tuition and registration fees are locked in. There is a stipulation that the registration fees be paid in 18 months however.


School-sponsored seminars such as boardbreaking, Bo, and Olympic sparring are open to the entire school and the only costs are for weapons/boards.

Chil-Sung forms, grappling, tumbling, etc., are taught once a month and during regular class time.

I had planned on getting my black belt anyway, so I joined (yes, I wanted to be able to attend more than twice a week, too). Most adults probably know what they want to do after 6 months or so. I was approached while still a white belt but declined. The whole contract thing unsettled me at first.

We have a load of kids in the BBC. I have no idea if that works out well or not.

Most adults are in the BBC (after they reach orange belt).

We look at BBC as a commitment to get out black belt. One certainly doesn't have to join BBC to get their black belt however.

I like the fact that my tuition is locked in. I already receive 50% off because I'm the second family member having enrolled in the school.

I started a BBC last year. It runs along roughly the same lines as you describe. It has worked out well for us. The students that plan to be with us long term make a bit more of a committment but also get more benefits such as extra training and discounts.

same here

 

[MJS]

I'll clarify. The occasional instance of this is fine. Life happens, people get sick, etc. What I mean is more like the following...I signed up for a class here in the current area that I am stationed in. The class was through a local civic center. The instructor had a great resume, many years as an instructor, strong lineage, all the selling points. She didn't actually teach the class. A couple of her students did all the teaching, while she sat in a chair on the side of the mat and watched. There were random cancellations of the class, sometimes 3-4 session out of the 8 per month that I paid for. Al of this is well beyond the occasional I gotta miss class because I'm sick or pet hamster died level.

Ok, well, in that case, I'd say that if the head inst. is not doing anything but hiding in the office or letting others do all the work, then yes, I agree that is very wrong. Sure, there are some classes that the head inst. doesn't teach. In other words, when I was teaching, I had set classes that were 'mine' so to speak. However, the head inst should still make an appearance.

Thus far I've never had a problem when I've elected to force the issue, but I do have a strong personality and don't accept defeat easily. Kinda helps me in my profession as a soldier. A few days ago my internet connection was out for about 12 hours. Over the course of a two hour phone session I made the provider credit me my whopping 74 cents. I know the anount is trivial but i honestly believe that the reason that so many companies are able to ignore valid customer complaints is because too often we allow them to. Seperate issue, I guess, but I'm willing to fight with a company over a triviality if I am right. I pay up if I'm wrong, though. Ultimatly this discussion is all about personal responsibility and I just don't happen to think it is a one way street with the instructor getting a free pass at ignoring his obligations whilst the student is held to task.

I've complained about missing or incorrect items in take out food. Some times I've just received the correct item, and other times in addition to that, I've received something else, ie: a free dessert, gift card, etc. I was having serious internet issues a while back, which thankfully were resolved, however, as tempting as it was to ask them for some sort of compensation, I figured that it wouldn't be worth it. As you mentioned above with the .74, I wasn't expecting much if anything, so I said nothing.

 

[bowser666]

You obviously have never run a commercial school. Quality instruction is only a small part of what makes a successful school. If quality instruction is all it took, the best instructors would have to turn away business. This is far from the case.

I notice how you said "commercial" haha , this si a school of Martial Arts training not a Subway franchise. Let's just be real here, alot of people open schools simply to make money. I actually was a co-owner of a small private school , apart from greedy franchises, or "Commercail Chains" and did it as a hobby. Not a way of life. The peopel that always seem to be all for contracts are the ones who depend upno their bread and butter to come from the school. Thus the need for contracts.....................

Perfect example is my school that I go to. My Sifu is a full time police officer yet he runs the school as a secondary option. Also as part of his commitment to spread teachings. If it a great quality school, with great instructors, and I have no problem paying for my classes. The biggest thing is he has NO CONTRACTS!!! He knows that people that really want to learn will keep coming back , and those are the kind of students he wants. When you say CONTRACTS you are expressing that you only give a **** about the person's money and could care less about the person so don't give me that. We all really know what contracts are about.

 

[Grenadier]

Yes i understand nothing in life is free but if the quality instruction is their and you are confident in your school, then students will keep coming back. Not for fear of a contract. Just my $.02

The problem is, that once in a while, your students will go through a "down" time, when they may take time off. Summertime can do this to many schools, where kids go away for more than a month, go to summer school away from the city, get jobs, etc.

Sometimes, when people go through this down time, they don't come back. Yes, even your good students, who appreciate good instruction, can sometimes go through this type of a rut.

Having a contract in place gives them more incentive to come back and keep on training. Usually, if they start training again, they get back into the flow of things quite nicely, instead of fading away.

 

[terryl965]

The problem is, that once in a while, your students will go through a "down" time, when they may take time off. Summertime can do this to many schools, where kids go away for more than a month, go to summer school away from the city, get jobs, etc.

Sometimes, when people go through this down time, they don't come back. Yes, even your good students, who appreciate good instruction, can sometimes go through this type of a rut.

Having a contract in place gives them more incentive to come back and keep on training. Usually, if they start training again, they get back into the flow of things quite nicely, instead of fading away.

While you are correct, I still do not believe in them and will not use them. I need only the word of a student that when they need a month off they will be back and if I do not hear from them it is so simple to drop a postcard as a friendly reminder anout there training. I fthey still do not come back then I did not need them to be here. They have found a new path and mine may or may not be a part of it. It sucks sometimes not knowing if you have enough to pay rent or not but those are the chances I am eilling to take.

 

[bowser666]

The problem is, that once in a while, your students will go through a "down" time, when they may take time off. Summertime can do this to many schools, where kids go away for more than a month, go to summer school away from the city, get jobs, etc.

Sometimes, when people go through this down time, they don't come back. Yes, even your good students, who appreciate good instruction, can sometimes go through this type of a rut.

Having a contract in place gives them more incentive to come back and keep on training. Usually, if they start training again, they get back into the flow of things quite nicely, instead of fading away.

Still not a viable excuse for a contract. It is simple as making a reminder to call the student in a month to personally check for a update to see if they will be returning back to school. It just shows again that contract is simply their to protect the business owner's revenue flow.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have two problems with the article and its author. The whole 'its the instructors fault if the student fails a test' remark shows a huge lack of understanding. This has already been gone over by others, so I won't belabor the point.

Secondly, Mr. Shirley's letting the lady out of her contract wasn't enough for him. He wants everyone to be told up front how to break a contract for reasons not stated in the contract that they've presumably read before signing. Very unreasonable, in my opinion.

Someone earlier stated that we've done this to ourselves when we agreed to teach kids. Fair enough, but so too have consumers done this to themselves. People come in, sign up for class, and the school teaches them in good faith. Then they just stop showing up because the summer months have come. Or whatever. School owners have a right to protect their business. If they offer shorter contracts than four years, then parents of young kids should opt for them. Or find a noncontractual school. It amazes me how little research people do into a martial arts school, but it hardly surprises me when the ignorant whine about it.

I signed myself kids up for two years. Both wanted to do martial arts and both were told, by me, that they must do the two years if I signed on the dotted line. When the first two years were up, one took a break and the other continued. I signed up for five years for myself. As I teach kumdo at the school as well as train in taekwondo and hapkido, my son was not charged for lessons after his contract was up and my other son has since returned.

I was careful about it; my kids are kids. They don't always stick with things. There are tons of expensive toys and video games that they just had to have and which now sit and collect dust or have been donated. And I have never met a parent who cannot say the same. Use of one's brain should not be suspended when walking into a martial arts school. People research things to death. Cars, for example, which few people really know much about, are researched to the point that everyone knows not to pay list and to ask about the invoice and rebates. Consumers spend hours haggling with salesmen at various dealerships over the cost of a machine who's interal workings may as well be magic to them, and then when they make their purchase, they leave with a gleam in their eye because they really stuck it to the salesman. They pride themselves on being a shrewd consumer. Then they sign a five year contract for their four year old at the local karate school and can't figure out why its a problem six months later when the kid does what most kids do: find a new passion that they just have to do.

Then they go and whine to people like this consumer watchdog to do their thinking for them after the fact. Such watchdogs never acknowledge that these people were foolish and the school owner is always the bad guy. And thus the cycle of stupidity continues.

Daniel

 

[Traditionalist]

I've got problems with lots of that. Beginning with the mercantile approach (after all, I'm VERY non-profit!). You pay dues to cover rent of the facility, purchase of needed equipment, and occasionally I even get some gas money. I don't charge more for additional training sessions; I don't charge less for fewer.

Our school is run the same way. We go month to month and the student's dues goes strictly to pay rent, and utilities and anything else to keep the school running. I find that most schools I know that have contracts are schools where the instructors are trying to make a living at teaching martial arts. All of our instructors have full time jobs so they aren't dependent on the school for anything. In this way I think it makes us more of a family instead of a "business". The kids I instruct our more like my little brothers and sisters and sometime I have to be hard on them and other times I can hold their hand and lead them where they need to go. I don't have to answer to parents and I'm never threatened with "do this or you'll lose our business". Parent and student knows up front what they are getting into and if they want to quit then I always tell them they are more then welcome to try again. Kids under ten can hardly dress themselves you can't expect them to know they they'll like martial arts for a year before they even get into it. I personally think contracts are just an insurance to the instructor so he can make a living at MA. And I don't believe in pre-test, you don't test a student to see if they are ready to test. That is what class is for, and you should test a student when you know they will pass. I tell my students when they are ready to test and I've hadn't had one come close to failing yet.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Still not a viable excuse for a contract. It is simple as making a reminder to call the student in a month to personally check for a update to see if they will be returning back to school. It just shows again that contract is simply their to protect the business owner's revenue flow.

Agreed. That is precisely what a contract is for.

Daniel

 

[elder999]

Well, I use contracts.

Each one covers a specific portion of the curriculum-the first, for example, from white belt through the next two ranks-it also covers a set number of lessons/time period to accomplish that. If it's not accomplished within the time frame, the student goes on paying the appropriate fee until the goal is reached-if the ranks are achieved in less time (as sometimes happens) the student can move on to the next contract for the next portion of the curriculum. All of this is contingent upon their fulfilling the other portions of the contract, which pretty much cover their behavior: they get arrested for certain things, commit domestic violence, use drugs, etc., well, my dojo is in my barn-or my home, if you prefer, and they're out-this is something that's happened only once. On the other hand, the student is also protected-I'm committed to get them to a certain point if they fulfill those conditions, show up for class and learn the material-I'm also committed to honor their contract upon my return, should I have to suspend it for work travel-something that happens a lot more since I started teaching.

At the end of the contract though, if I have a bad vibe and don't want to teach them anymore, I don't have to give them another contract, and can recommend another teacher or school for them-something I've done once or twice. Each successive contract charges less-a student who's been around for a while is of more value to me, and the lower cost reflects that.

I charge very little, compartively speaking, and the rent I charge my LLC for the use of the barn is low-the contract is strictly to protect my home, myself, and the students-most of whom, if they weren't my friends to begin with, become friends over time.

Consequently, I have no "Black Belt Club," or long term contracts-I'm not about to commit myself to training a sociopath in high level organized violence.

 

[ChingChuan]

I believe there is a big difference between European and US based schools. Not on quality but on ability to running the schools in general. When you [Shicomm] say "typical US contract 'craze' " you do not take into consideration the economical and social differences that we are dealing with. -- I will just leave it at that --

Can someone explain this to me? I live in Europe as well...

 

[Brian S]

Commercialism has contributed to the downfall or atleast mediocrity of martial arts. Contracts are just a part of the commercialism.

Then again, if it weren't for commercialism, how many of us would even be doing ma?