Shicomm
Purple Belt
With the typical US contract 'craze' i'm happy that it's not that big in europe...
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If you are unable to teach for a period of a few weeks do you pro-rate? If you don't teach then should you get paid?
Do you utilize junior/assistant instructors? If I signed up t have you teach me and one of your students does all of the instructing do I still have to pay even though I'm not receiving the promised product?
If you have noticed that most people want out in the summer and you haven't adjusted your financial planning to compensate for the drop in income is that the students fault?
I have had a couple of bad experiences with contracts in the past so if a school has a required contract it immediately ceases to be a place where I'll train.
KARATE STUDENT BILL OF RIGHTS
1. The Karate instructor agrees that he will be the instructor of all classes, actively teaching and not observing or being assisted by his students or assistants. For each class the instructor does not teach which is taught by a substitute, a $10.00 dispersal shall be made to the customer.
2. The instructor agrees that the facilities shall be clean and in working order at all times. The instructor shall provide up-to-date and immaculate toilet facilities along with a sink, charged soap dispenser, and paper towel dispenser and trash can that is emptied nightly. The floor of the bathroom and the dojo itself shall be disinfected daily. Any spills or mess shall be cleaned up immediately upon discovery by the staff of the Karate school and not by the students. All cleaning to be performed by the instructor and his staff - never the students.
3. The instructor agrees that the student need not participate in any demonstrations or other marketing/advertising events on behalf of the school in order to be selected for tournament participation or rank promotion. The instructor shall compensate students for their participation in such events in cash at the rate of $25.00 per hour should they volunteer to participate.
4. Rank examinations shall only be held between the hours of 9am and 5pm on Saturdays at least six times per year. No training session longer than one hour shall be held immediately before or during the rank examination. Automatic promotion shall be the result for each examination instance less than six held during the year.
5. The club by-laws shall be provided in writing and free of charge to the student within 14 days of attaining membership. Should the student find the by-laws in any way objectionable, all agreements are immediately revoked and all fees must be immediately refunded.
6. The school must disclose any and all fees and charges for all services and products offered by the school in writing immediately before any membership agreement can be considered active or any fees coming due. This includes disclosure of rank test fees, certification fees, monthly tuition, uniform prices, and any other required or conditional charges or fees. Fee and price amounts must remain fixed in place for the student until December 31 of the current year.
7. All classes shall begin on time. On-time shall be defined as within 120 seconds of the exact hour that they are previously scheduled to begin. Classes that begin late shall result in a $5.00 refund for that class to the student if present.
8. The instructor shall not at any time attempt to restrict or control the behavior of the student outside of his classroom environment before or after the published schedule for start and end times of classes. This includes attempts to enforce Japanese etiquette, use of titles or special address, symbols, secret handshakes, slogans, sounds, chants, cheers, or any other behaviors. This shall also include attempting to restrict or discourage the student from participating in any other activity, including the martial arts activity of a competing business or non-profit organization that teaches the same subject.
9. The student shall be allowed to hold membership in as many organizations and schools as the student shall choose, and the instructor shall take no action nor attempt to discourage this behavior.
10. The instructor shall not hold the student accountable for the other students behavior or performance. The instructor shall not ask the student to teach classes nor to tutor other students at any time. The instructor shall perform all teaching himself, and the student shall not be asked to be tutored by nor tutor any other student in the class nor provide leadership to other students in the class.
11. The instructor shall not require membership in an overseer organization or governing body. The student shall join only if the student chooses. No conditions may be placed on the student, either coercion or limitations, if the student chooses not to join any governing bodies or organizations.
12. The instructor shall not lead class while practicing himself. He shall practice during other hours outside of the class, and the student shall be given full attention of the instructor during class hours.
13. The instructor will provide instruction for the duration of this agreement. Should the Karate school close, the instructor will provide private lessons to the student in their home for the remainder of the agreement or refund to the student double the fees that were paid to the instructor for the original agreement amount.
14. The student shall never be punished, humiliated, or singled out by the instructor when late for class. The student shall be allowed to quietly join the class without having to perform a ceremony or wait for acknowledgment on the side of the training area
The above Karate Student Bill of Rights was written by Rob Redmond and is posted to 24fightingchickens.com
Would any of you instructors that use contracts agree to these terms?
Honestly, I only skimmed the article, but I can't help but immediately think: who signs up their 9-year old for a 4 year program at $140 per month and feels it is wrong when they are held to the contract they signed with their own hand?
If you sign a contract, you have to pay for the alloted time. Pure and simple.
Thanks for your post, Master Terry.Lynne I am directing this at you just because of this part of your post, MY CLUB DOES NOT CHARGE FOR A BB CLUB
First off if you have a seperate club for those wishing to be a BB then that means the rest of the group is kinda left behind and to me all my students are here to obtain at some point and time. Also I gaurentee your Master is making some sort of monetary gain or there would not be a club, maybe a special uniform or because you are in a BB club then you deserve weapons training and you have to buy weapons. Maybe it is a special training only at seminars but like I said he is making something or there is no reason to have one period.
Now Lynne on to some of your other question, must of them are great ones and I applaud them but to me an instructor should tell each perspective students fee's upfront like tournaments, travel, association and equipment. I know I tell all of mine these are some of the fee's and the longer you stay they may get more expensive with the economy. Be prepared for that and remember everything in life has a cost associated with it, one way or another.
If I am in college, and come down with the flu or just don't feel like going to class for 3 days because its 80 degrees with a cool breeze, and perfect beach weather, the college is still taking my money. They're not giving me a refund because I chose not to go. Again, I go back to a weeks vacation. My light bill isn't going to be credited a week because the lights weren't on.
Asst. isntructors are usually part of every school. When I taught on a regular basis, I used them all the time. However, unless it was a Black Belt, the asst. would usually just work on material that the student(s) already knew. Teaching of new material came from BB's. .
I understand that some schools do charge for black belt club. Ours does not.
With the typical US contract 'craze' i'm happy that it's not that big in europe...
If you are in college and elect not to go to class that is your option and the school doesn't owe you any money. That, however, isn't what I asked.
If you as the instructor fail to teach, is the student entitled to a refund? When I was in college and a class would get canceled after I had paid tuition I certainly received one. Likewise, if I go on vacation I don't expect not to pay for my utilities during my absence, yet if service is interrupted I expect my bill pro-rated for the missing time.
Mark[/quote
If said instructor cancels classes all together, you should get a refund.
If Asst. instructor teaches class, no refund.
If class is cancelled due to flu, bad weather - no refund - (do you get it back from college the 1.5 credit hours you missed if Prof. is sick?)
If you cannot accept that something bad has happened to the teacher and s/he has to close (my Opinion) -- please leave dojo.
All in all if said companies do not want to pro-rate you can go elsewhere, same with the karate school. (that is if you were not foolish enough to sign a long term contract.)
Thats all just wrong and makes me sick that martial arts schools would do that. First, thank you for serving. I have had many students go into the service and off to Irag, I could never imagine someone forcing you to pay while you were off making sure they had the right to even run a dojo. See, again, agreements for some are a safety net for further endeavors, not as a way to get every dime no matter what.My personal experience involved an instructor who refused to cancel my contract when I deployed to Iraq, in spite of things like the military clause that was directly in the contract that I signed. I ended up in court and all of my financial losses were recouped, yet my credit rating still took a hit. I'll never enter into another contractual agreement for martial arts classes again.
I'm only going to reply to one of your responses to Mr Redmonds Bill. I find your response to #13 interesting.
If the school were to close and the student had paid you in advance for the next three months, for example, do you think that the student would be entitled to a refund? If he is paying on a contractual basis, should this be voided? I know instances in which schools closed and neither action was taken. The school just kept the money/ continued to force payments.
I think that the stipulations in article 13 are intentionally exaggerated for effect I think the base idea still holds.
Mark
That is all. I see purposes for having and not having contracts. The biggest problem that I have is when there is no or a difficult escape clause. But the comparisons that I've listed are used a lot to support arguments and I really just can't see the connection.
KARATE STUDENT BILL OF RIGHTS
.1. The Karate instructor agrees that he will be the instructor of all classes, actively teaching and not observing or being assisted by his students or assistants. For each class the instructor does not teach which is taught by a substitute, a $10.00 dispersal shall be made to the customer
yes this is how we operate. we do not have students do our work as studio owners. students take classes, and then get on with their lives.2. The instructor agrees that the facilities shall be clean and in working order at all times. The instructor shall provide up-to-date and immaculate toilet facilities along with a sink, charged soap dispenser, and paper towel dispenser and trash can that is emptied nightly. The floor of the bathroom and the dojo itself shall be disinfected daily. Any spills or mess shall be cleaned up immediately upon discovery by the staff of the Karate school and not by the students. All cleaning to be performed by the instructor and his staff - never the students.
we do not use our students as props for advertising. we do rely on word of mouth, and we do not offer any monetary or promotional gifts for bringing in new students. if an existing student brings in a friend, or otherwise promotes our school, they will likely receive a thank you.3. The instructor agrees that the student need not participate in any demonstrations or other marketing/advertising events on behalf of the school in order to be selected for tournament participation or rank promotion. The instructor shall compensate students for their participation in such events in cash at the rate of $25.00 per hour should they volunteer to participate.
this is a little strange. we do not even offer classes on Saturdays, so why would we schedule rank exams then? we offer rank exams, as appropriate, during class time. when a student is ready, they are given a few weeks notice to prepare as candidates, and will be tested if ready. there is no automatic promotion, but that said, due to our 'process' we have not had occassion to fail anyone... yet.4. Rank examinations shall only be held between the hours of 9am and 5pm on Saturdays at least six times per year. No training session longer than one hour shall be held immediately before or during the rank examination. Automatic promotion shall be the result for each examination instance less than six held during the year.
we don't have any by-laws, rules or guidelines. we also don't have any membership agreements or fees to be refunded.5. The club by-laws shall be provided in writing and free of charge to the student within 14 days of attaining membership. Should the student find the by-laws in any way objectionable, all agreements are immediately revoked and all fees must be immediately refunded.
sure, we disclose our class rates, and also disclose that there are no membership fees, no rank test fees, no charge for first uniform, etc. there are no required purchases, even if a kid rips or 'forgets' his uniform, he may take the class in 'civvies'. no problem.6. The school must disclose any and all fees and charges for all services and products offered by the school in writing immediately before any membership agreement can be considered active or any fees coming due. This includes disclosure of rank test fees, certification fees, monthly tuition, uniform prices, and any other required or conditional charges or fees. Fee and price amounts must remain fixed in place for the student until December 31 of the current year.
. well, i don't think my wall clock has a second hand, so not sure about this one... but there are no 'refunds'. if the student thinks he is getting cheated out of time, he doesn't have to take the class. a student is only charged for classes he attends.7. All classes shall begin on time. On-time shall be defined as within 120 seconds of the exact hour that they are previously scheduled to begin. Classes that begin late shall result in a $5.00 refund for that class to the student if present
that's cool too. many of my adult students take tai chi with me, while enrolled in other martial arts programs elsewhere. we use english in all of our classes, if we reference a chinese word, english explanation is always given. we use no titles and are addressed on a first name basis by all students, even the youngest kids. i encourage my youngest students to take part in other activities in addition to (and sometimes at the expense of) my classes... such as music, art, sports, dance, etc. and will award patches (at my expense) based on school work or extra-curriculars.8. The instructor shall not at any time attempt to restrict or control the behavior of the student outside of his classroom environment before or after the published schedule for start and end times of classes. This includes attempts to enforce Japanese etiquette, use of titles or special address, symbols, secret handshakes, slogans, sounds, chants, cheers, or any other behaviors. This shall also include attempting to restrict or discourage the student from participating in any other activity, including the martial arts activity of a competing business or non-profit organization that teaches the same subject.
yep, that is up to the individual, not me9. The student shall be allowed to hold membership in as many organizations and schools as the student shall choose, and the instructor shall take no action nor attempt to discourage this behavior.
well, not sure what the point is here, but no students are responsible for teaching... but there is a lot to learn through supervised cooperative learning.10. The instructor shall not hold the student accountable for the other students behavior or performance. The instructor shall not ask the student to teach classes nor to tutor other students at any time. The instructor shall perform all teaching himself, and the student shall not be asked to be tutored by nor tutor any other student in the class nor provide leadership to other students in the class.
students are not required to join anything, just take classes.11. The instructor shall not require membership in an overseer organization or governing body. The student shall join only if the student chooses. No conditions may be placed on the student, either coercion or limitations, if the student chooses not to join any governing bodies or organizations
good point. as an instructor, your responsibility is to the students.12. The instructor shall not lead class while practicing himself. He shall practice during other hours outside of the class, and the student shall be given full attention of the instructor during class hours.
. no problem. student pays for class. if we were to go out of business or close down, we are square with all of our students.13. The instructor will provide instruction for the duration of this agreement. Should the Karate school close, the instructor will provide private lessons to the student in their home for the remainder of the agreement or refund to the student double the fees that were paid to the instructor for the original agreement amount
cool. i always tell my students, i don't care if you are late, you still pay the same for the class and i get to do less work!.14. The student shall never be punished, humiliated, or singled out by the instructor when late for class. The student shall be allowed to quietly join the class without having to perform a ceremony or wait for acknowledgment on the side of the training area
You obviously have never run a commercial school. Quality instruction is only a small part of what makes a successful school. If quality instruction is all it took, the best instructors would have to turn away business. This is far from the case.Yes i understand nothing in life is free but if the quality instruction is their and you are confident in your school, then students will keep coming back. Not for fear of a contract. Just my $.02
If you are in college and elect not to go to class that is your option and the school doesn't owe you any money. That, however, isn't what I asked.
If you as the instructor fail to teach, is the student entitled to a refund? When I was in college and a class would get canceled after I had paid tuition I certainly received one.
Likewise, if I go on vacation I don't expect not to pay for my utilities during my absence, yet if service is interrupted I expect my bill pro-rated for the missing time. I simply think that if I have paid for a service and the person responsible fails to provide the service that they have taken my money for, then they owe me that money back.
I don't hold karate teachers to any different standers than I do anyone else that I transact with.
You Assistant Instructor policy is more acceptable, yet if you advertise that you are the teacher, as a selling point, and then don't actually instruct me. That is a problem. I'm not saying that that is how you do things but it is what I am specifically what I am speaking out against.
I'm only going to reply to one of your responses to Mr Redmonds Bill. I find your response to #13 interesting.
If the school were to close and the student had paid you in advance for the next three months, for example, do you think that the student would be entitled to a refund? If he is paying on a contractual basis, should this be voided? I know instances in which schools closed and neither action was taken. The school just kept the money/ continued to force payments.
I think that the stipulations in article 13 are intentionally exaggerated for effect I think the base idea still holds.
Also, I would like to say I appreciate your responses to this thread. I find it interesting, and mean no disrespect to you in this line of questioning.If you take any offense then please accept my preemptive apology.
Mark