Martial Arts Contracts

[MJS]

I came across this article that was in my paper on Sunday, but the online version is on today, so I wanted to post it for discussion. This gentleman works for the paper. He is basically a person you can contact regarding consumer protection issues. He pretty much goes to bat for you and does his best to help with your situation.

So, in this article, its about a Mother who enrolled her child in a MA program. Basically her son began to lose interest and wanted out. The school was initially giving her a hard time, but his guy assisted her in getting out of the contract.

I thought we could open this up for discussion, with your thoughts on the article, as well as for the school owners out there, how you go about dealing with contracts.

 

[RevIV]

first i think this guy is out of line stating it is the instructors fault if someone fails a test. I have heard this from fellow martial arts school owners also and i told them my feelings on that too. I do not put people up for testing unless i have seen that they can do it, but people have bad days and if they have one at the test they fail, if you cannot fail do not call it a test, call it a graduation like so many schools do now. As for long term contracts - thats just not smart - I have two agreements at my school, 6 months and 1 year. You pay less for the 1 year but i am not going to let little johnny out because his parents are not willing to show commitment. I will let them out for standard, moved to far, injury and so on. If you notice most people want out in the summer time and every year my friends without agreement policies at their school find themselves going into debt and do not dig out until November. A very successful Dojo owner once said to me. When the families come in and say they are going out of town for a month and do not want to pay, he just merely asks them to show him the letter that the mortgage co., gym , and car payment letter says that they did not have to pay them either since they were not going to be driving or be home. This country is turning into a place where it is no ones fault and ignorance is ok. We see it everywhere, people doing things way beyond their means. its crazy...

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Short answer--I'm against them.

But it's only to be expected as soon as we took it into our heads that it was OK to teach MA's to persons under 18 just to make a buck, and we've done it to ourselves.

 

[MJS]

first i think this guy is out of line stating it is the instructors fault if someone fails a test. I have heard this from fellow martial arts school owners also and i told them my feelings on that too. I do not put people up for testing unless i have seen that they can do it, but people have bad days and if they have one at the test they fail, if you cannot fail do not call it a test, call it a graduation like so many schools do now. As for long term contracts - thats just not smart - I have two agreements at my school, 6 months and 1 year. You pay less for the 1 year but i am not going to let little johnny out because his parents are not willing to show commitment. I will let them out for standard, moved to far, injury and so on. If you notice most people want out in the summer time and every year my friends without agreement policies at their school find themselves going into debt and do not dig out until November. A very successful Dojo owner once said to me. When the families come in and say they are going out of town for a month and do not want to pay, he just merely asks them to show him the letter that the mortgage co., gym , and car payment letter says that they did not have to pay them either since they were not going to be driving or be home. This country is turning into a place where it is no ones fault and ignorance is ok. We see it everywhere, people doing things way beyond their means. its crazy...

Well, you're not alone Jesse, as the remark about the passing of the tests caught my eye as well.

Two weeks went by without a call from Shirley. She got tired of waiting and sent me an e-mail asking for help. She said she knew she had made a mistake by signing the contract but felt it was unfair for her to have to continue to pay when her son was no longer interested. Not only did he not pass his last test, he is now spending half his summer with his father, who lives out of state. (By the way, when a martial arts student fails a test it is my belief that the fault lies with the instructor and not the student. A good instructor will not permit a student to take a test without being convinced that it will be successful, especially in the lower levels.)

The above part pretty much makes it sound like there was a guarantee that the kid would pass, no matter what. I'm sorry, I don't care how long this guy trained or what the mother thinks...the bottom line is that while the inst. should not put someone up to test unless they're ready, just because they're testing does not mean that they still can't fail. Sure, some schools have a pre-test, where the material is shown and the test is basically a 'show' so to speak, for people coming to watch, if the student stands there with a blank look, can't do a tech., can't do a kata...then why the hell should they pass????

As for the contracts...I can't really comment too much on that because a) I don't own a school and b) the contract was taken care of by the school owners, not me. However, I do like what you suggest. And you're right...when I go on a cruise for a week, and the TV isn't turned on for a week, nor the lights, I still get a bill for that time. The elect. company or the cable co. don't give me a weeks worth of credit because those things weren't used.

I don't know what the school owner or the inst. or whoever dealt with this woman said to her, but obviously there was some miscommunication. If the school wasn't clear, shame on them. If the person joining doesnt ask the proper questions, shame on them! I'm sorry, but I don't sign my name to anything without reading thru it, especially if its something that is involving a contract or a large sum of cash.

 

[shihansmurf]

If you notice most people want out in the summer time and every year my friends without agreement policies at their school find themselves going into debt and do not dig out until November. A very successful Dojo owner once said to me. When the families come in and say they are going out of town for a month and do not want to pay, he just merely asks them to show him the letter that the mortgage co., gym , and car payment letter says that they did not have to pay them either since they were not going to be driving or be home. ...

If you are unable to teach for a period of a few weeks do you pro-rate? If you don't teach then should you get paid?

Do you utilize junior/assistant instructors? If I signed up t have you teach me and one of your students does all of the instructing do I still have to pay even though I'm not receiving the promised product?

If you have noticed that most people want out in the summer and you haven't adjusted your financial planning to compensate for the drop in income is that the students fault?

Do you post an itemized list of all fees expected from the student without the possibility that the list could change with no prior notice?

Does the student receive a pro-rated refund if you're late to class/ cancel class?

Is the student compensated for participating in demonstration, competitions , or fundraisers? In reference to the above question about assistant instructors: Are they paid?

Should you elect to discontinue your class do you stop charging?

I have had a couple of bad experiences with contracts in the past so if a school has a required contract it immediately ceases to be a place where I'll train.

I apologize for the hostile tone in this post. I have thought long and hard on the issue of contracts from both sides of the fence and I am honestly interested in your answers to the above questions. Too often the contracts are there to protect the instructor and are incredibly one sided.
I am force to wonder how an instructor would respond if a student requires him to add the following provisions to the contract:

KARATE STUDENT BILL OF RIGHTS 1. The Karate instructor agrees that he will be the instructor of all classes, actively teaching and not observing or being assisted by his students or assistants. For each class the instructor does not teach which is taught by a substitute, a $10.00 dispersal shall be made to the customer.


2. The instructor agrees that the facilities shall be clean and in working order at all times. The instructor shall provide up-to-date and immaculate toilet facilities along with a sink, charged soap dispenser, and paper towel dispenser and trash can that is emptied nightly. The floor of the bathroom and the dojo itself shall be disinfected daily. Any spills or mess shall be cleaned up immediately upon discovery by the staff of the Karate school and not by the students. All cleaning to be performed by the instructor and his staff - never the students.


3. The instructor agrees that the student need not participate in any demonstrations or other marketing/advertising events on behalf of the school in order to be selected for tournament participation or rank promotion. The instructor shall compensate students for their participation in such events in cash at the rate of $25.00 per hour should they volunteer to participate.


4. Rank examinations shall only be held between the hours of 9am and 5pm on Saturdays at least six times per year. No training session longer than one hour shall be held immediately before or during the rank examination. Automatic promotion shall be the result for each examination instance less than six held during the year.


5. The club by-laws shall be provided in writing and free of charge to the student within 14 days of attaining membership. Should the student find the by-laws in any way objectionable, all agreements are immediately revoked and all fees must be immediately refunded.


6. The school must disclose any and all fees and charges for all services and products offered by the school in writing immediately before any membership agreement can be considered active or any fees coming due. This includes disclosure of rank test fees, certification fees, monthly tuition, uniform prices, and any other required or conditional charges or fees. Fee and price amounts must remain fixed in place for the student until December 31 of the current year.


7. All classes shall begin on time. “On-time” shall be defined as within 120 seconds of the exact hour that they are previously scheduled to begin. Classes that begin late shall result in a $5.00 refund for that class to the student if present.


8. The instructor shall not at any time attempt to restrict or control the behavior of the student outside of his classroom environment before or after the published schedule for start and end times of classes. This includes attempts to enforce Japanese etiquette, use of titles or special address, symbols, secret handshakes, slogans, sounds, chants, cheers, or any other behaviors. This shall also include attempting to restrict or discourage the student from participating in any other activity, including the martial arts activity of a competing business or non-profit organization that teaches the same subject.


9. The student shall be allowed to hold membership in as many organizations and schools as the student shall choose, and the instructor shall take no action nor attempt to discourage this behavior.


10. The instructor shall not hold the student accountable for the other students’ behavior or performance. The instructor shall not ask the student to teach classes nor to tutor other students at any time. The instructor shall perform all teaching himself, and the student shall not be asked to be tutored by nor tutor any other student in the class nor provide leadership to other students in the class.


11. The instructor shall not require membership in an overseer organization or governing body. The student shall join only if the student chooses. No conditions may be placed on the student, either coercion or limitations, if the student chooses not to join any governing bodies or organizations.


12. The instructor shall not lead class while practicing himself. He shall practice during other hours outside of the class, and the student shall be given full attention of the instructor during class hours.


13. The instructor will provide instruction for the duration of this agreement. Should the Karate school close, the instructor will provide private lessons to the student in their home for the remainder of the agreement or refund to the student double the fees that were paid to the instructor for the original agreement amount.

14. The student shall never be punished, humiliated, or singled out by the instructor when late for class. The student shall be allowed to quietly join the class without having to perform a ceremony or wait for acknowledgment on the side of the training area

The above Karate Student Bill of Rights was written by Rob Redmond and is posted to 24fightingchickens.com

Would any of you instructors that use contracts agree to these terms?

Again I mean no disrespect to you personally, RevIV, I realize that it could be taken that way and again extend apologies if needed. I am interested in your replies as an aforementioned contract supporter?

Mark

 

[RevIV]

If you are unable to teach for a period of a few weeks do you pro-rate? If you don't teach then should you get paid?

Do you utilize junior/assistant instructors? If I signed up t have you teach me and one of your students does all of the instructing do I still have to pay even though I'm not receiving the promised product?

If you have noticed that most people want out in the summer and you haven't adjusted your financial planning to compensate for the drop in income is that the students fault?

Do you post an itemized list of all fees expected from the student without the possibility that the list could change with no prior notice?

Does the student receive a pro-rated refund if you're late to class/ cancel class?

Is the student compensated for participating in demonstration, competitions , or fundraisers? In reference to the above question about assistant instructors: Are they paid?

Should you elect to discontinue your class do you stop charging?

I have had a couple of bad experiences with contracts in the past so if a school has a required contract it immediately ceases to be a place where I'll train.

I apologize for the hostile tone in this post. I have thought long and hard on the issue of contracts from both sides of the fence and I am honestly interested in your answers to the above questions. Too often the contracts are there to protect the instructor and are incredibly one sided.
I am force to wonder how an instructor would respond if a student requires him to add the following provisions to the contract:




Again I mean no disrespect to you personally, RevIV, I realize that it could be taken that way and again extend apologies if needed. I am interested in your replies as an aforementioned contract supporter?

Mark

I will go on the Bill of Rights later.

I am cooking and watching my 6 week old right now. I will try to answer questions but maybe not in exact order.
1. The person signing up for Martial lessons is signing up for lessons and what that dojo has to offer. At no time do i tell parents that i will be the one teaching their children. I will talk to them about how great my asst. instructors are that i trained them personally and have completed 100's of hours of training on how to teach.
2. Does the owner of a store not get paid if his employees are the only ones working and the owner is away?
3. If i discontinue class no one is charged.
4. I have a close network of friends and if I could not teach someone would cover for me. The Chief instructor of one of our schools came down with Mono. Instructors from my school divided up the classes for the month and taught for him.. We are a business but if you stay long enough you see we are a family. I am not a dance school that puts on a giant .
5. I have adjusted for people not wanting to come in the summer - I offer twice the classes for the same price. I run morning through evening classes all summer long to make the families hectic schedules as easy as possible. If they go on vacation I give them private lessons for free to cover any time past 1 week on a true vacation. If i did not want to run this as a full time job I would do it part time and do the things you have said. I would not have a giant overhead that needs to be paid every month.
And no I am not offended by any of these statements or questions. For many years I worked in a non-profit dojo in the city. I earned my degree in Social Work following in the footsteps of my teacher. Was never paid and the instructor took a loss every year. I had other jobs and no family.
when people sign up I am honest. Tell there 5 year old it will be almost 9 years before they can be considered for black belt.. That is a huge deterent for the younger class, my bad for business my good for inner self.
This is my living, for 9 years I was running a dojo with no agreements and my rent kept going up and I watched more than a half dozen other schools go out of business because they did not have agreements and could not make it through the summers. I now have a great new location and realized i was stuck because a bank does not see month to month agreements as regular income. I told all my students this and all were happy to sign that paper. Now i can show a bank how much i am bringing in and have a little more borrowing power.
Every student at my school is with me for about 2 1/2 months as a trial. They all know that at the end of that period they can make a decision to sign up or find somewhere else no hard sale, no used car salesman just an honest business person making a resonable agreement with someone who is looking to be better themselves or their children. Again i took nothing to heart. I have seen some sleazy business tactics and it makes us all look bad. over 90% of the people who come in do not even know there is more then black belt, they would be easy to take advantage of.

 

[jks9199]

If you are unable to teach for a period of a few weeks do you pro-rate? If you don't teach then should you get paid?

Do you utilize junior/assistant instructors? If I signed up t have you teach me and one of your students does all of the instructing do I still have to pay even though I'm not receiving the promised product?

If you have noticed that most people want out in the summer and you haven't adjusted your financial planning to compensate for the drop in income is that the students fault?

Do you post an itemized list of all fees expected from the student without the possibility that the list could change with no prior notice?

Does the student receive a pro-rated refund if you're late to class/ cancel class?

Is the student compensated for participating in demonstration, competitions , or fundraisers? In reference to the above question about assistant instructors: Are they paid?

Should you elect to discontinue your class do you stop charging?

I have had a couple of bad experiences with contracts in the past so if a school has a required contract it immediately ceases to be a place where I'll train.

I apologize for the hostile tone in this post. I have thought long and hard on the issue of contracts from both sides of the fence and I am honestly interested in your answers to the above questions. Too often the contracts are there to protect the instructor and are incredibly one sided.
I am force to wonder how an instructor would respond if a student requires him to add the following provisions to the contract:

KARATE STUDENT BILL OF RIGHTS 1. The Karate instructor agrees that he will be the instructor of all classes, actively teaching and not observing or being assisted by his students or assistants. For each class the instructor does not teach which is taught by a substitute, a $10.00 dispersal shall be made to the customer.


2. The instructor agrees that the facilities shall be clean and in working order at all times. The instructor shall provide up-to-date and immaculate toilet facilities along with a sink, charged soap dispenser, and paper towel dispenser and trash can that is emptied nightly. The floor of the bathroom and the dojo itself shall be disinfected daily. Any spills or mess shall be cleaned up immediately upon discovery by the staff of the Karate school and not by the students. All cleaning to be performed by the instructor and his staff - never the students.


3. The instructor agrees that the student need not participate in any demonstrations or other marketing/advertising events on behalf of the school in order to be selected for tournament participation or rank promotion. The instructor shall compensate students for their participation in such events in cash at the rate of $25.00 per hour should they volunteer to participate.


4. Rank examinations shall only be held between the hours of 9am and 5pm on Saturdays at least six times per year. No training session longer than one hour shall be held immediately before or during the rank examination. Automatic promotion shall be the result for each examination instance less than six held during the year.


5. The club by-laws shall be provided in writing and free of charge to the student within 14 days of attaining membership. Should the student find the by-laws in any way objectionable, all agreements are immediately revoked and all fees must be immediately refunded.


6. The school must disclose any and all fees and charges for all services and products offered by the school in writing immediately before any membership agreement can be considered active or any fees coming due. This includes disclosure of rank test fees, certification fees, monthly tuition, uniform prices, and any other required or conditional charges or fees. Fee and price amounts must remain fixed in place for the student until December 31 of the current year.


7. All classes shall begin on time. “On-time” shall be defined as within 120 seconds of the exact hour that they are previously scheduled to begin. Classes that begin late shall result in a $5.00 refund for that class to the student if present.


8. The instructor shall not at any time attempt to restrict or control the behavior of the student outside of his classroom environment before or after the published schedule for start and end times of classes. This includes attempts to enforce Japanese etiquette, use of titles or special address, symbols, secret handshakes, slogans, sounds, chants, cheers, or any other behaviors. This shall also include attempting to restrict or discourage the student from participating in any other activity, including the martial arts activity of a competing business or non-profit organization that teaches the same subject.


9. The student shall be allowed to hold membership in as many organizations and schools as the student shall choose, and the instructor shall take no action nor attempt to discourage this behavior.


10. The instructor shall not hold the student accountable for the other students’ behavior or performance. The instructor shall not ask the student to teach classes nor to tutor other students at any time. The instructor shall perform all teaching himself, and the student shall not be asked to be tutored by nor tutor any other student in the class nor provide leadership to other students in the class.


11. The instructor shall not require membership in an overseer organization or governing body. The student shall join only if the student chooses. No conditions may be placed on the student, either coercion or limitations, if the student chooses not to join any governing bodies or organizations.


12. The instructor shall not lead class while practicing himself. He shall practice during other hours outside of the class, and the student shall be given full attention of the instructor during class hours.


13. The instructor will provide instruction for the duration of this agreement. Should the Karate school close, the instructor will provide private lessons to the student in their home for the remainder of the agreement or refund to the student double the fees that were paid to the instructor for the original agreement amount.

14. The student shall never be punished, humiliated, or singled out by the instructor when late for class. The student shall be allowed to quietly join the class without having to perform a ceremony or wait for acknowledgment on the side of the training area

The above Karate Student Bill of Rights was written by Rob Redmond and is posted to 24fightingchickens.com

Would any of you instructors that use contracts agree to these terms?

Again I mean no disrespect to you personally, RevIV, I realize that it could be taken that way and again extend apologies if needed. I am interested in your replies as an aforementioned contract supporter?

Mark

I've got problems with lots of that. Beginning with the mercantile approach (after all, I'm VERY non-profit!). You pay dues to cover rent of the facility, purchase of needed equipment, and occasionally I even get some gas money. I don't charge more for additional training sessions; I don't charge less for fewer. Does your homeowner's association adjust the dues for the length of the month?

There are times when I can't teach; I may send a substitute or arrange a special training session -- or assign a select senior student to instruct.

There are times when I will have a senior student instruct under my supervision. That's how they'll learn to teach. Martial arts is not simply an athletic activity; when I train a black belt, they can perform as an instructor. Some are not ideally suited to do so -- but all are capable.

The overall association provides additional training opportunities for me and my students, as well as competition opportunities and the simple fact of some larger body to play within. Membership also, in our association's case, carries certain insurance benefits while training.

The class or school may close for a number of reasons. I may not be able to honor a commitment to teach x number of students privately in their homes; I do have to feed and clothe my own family.

I do agree with elements of the list: outside of class, I'm Jim. Or my professional titles. Not Coach, Instructor, Saya, Sabumnim, Sensei, or Grand Googly Woggly, for example.

What your bill of rights describes is a good model for an aerobics class or some other similar exercises -- but not for something that goes beyond mere physical activity. If that's all your martial arts are, that's fine. But that's not how I was taught, nor is it how I teach.

 

[ArmorOfGod]

Honestly, I only skimmed the article, but I can't help but immediately think: who signs up their 9-year old for a 4 year program at $140 per month and feels it is wrong when they are held to the contract they signed with their own hand?
If you sign a contract, you have to pay for the alloted time. Pure and simple.

I detest contracts in ma schools, but if they are there, then the parent has to pay what they agreed to pay. They were never forced to sign that payment agreement.

AoG

 

[Kwan Jang]

I wonder if the "crusading journalist" would have the same attitude if one of his advertisers wanted out of their contract.

 

[stickarts]

I wonder if the "crusading journalist" would have the same attitude if one of his advertisers wanted out of their contract.

Great point! When the subject of contracts comes up here there is often a lot of emphasis placed on the cons to the client. That's a valid concern. There are many points of view to consider. For example, to look at the opposite side, it is very difficult when clients want the services but then fail to pay. Contracts help give the provider a bit more leverage to receiving the payment due to them. I can tell you as a school owner its very disappointing when a student takes classes but then avoids paying. Fortunately for us we have attracted very good clients but when this has happened it is still frustrating, disappointing, and discouraging. In my view, contracts can be great when used in a fair manner and both parties act with integity, or they can be terrible when misused. My experience has been that the way in which we use contracts has resulted in the pro's far outweighing the cons. Contracts help to keep two-way expectations clear with the clients, however, being fair and trustworthy and building a positive relationship with students is what is important and a contract, even a good one, alone can't take the place of that.

 

[stickarts]

Regarding the testing, my view is that the school reserves the right to pass a student or not as long as you can justify it. We use a pre-test format and the expectation is that it will not be signed off by the instructor unless the student is operating at the proper level. The student goes into the testing ceremony properly prepared and we do not expect to fail them because they should be prepared and failing them at a ceremony in front of their peers, family, friends, and teachers is not promoting the self esteem that we are supposed to be building, especially in the young children. However, that does not mean passing is a given.
If a poor attitude is demonstrated, or there was somehow a breakdown in the testing process and the student really shouldn't be there, then a discussion would take place behind closed doors with the student / parent and specific reasons would be given for the students not passing and specific instructions would be given as to what is needed to be improved upon for the student to retain or gain the ranking.
As a parent myself, I know it is difficult seeing your child fail anything. You love them so much. However I can respect a school that provides a quality program and gives us a clear path for our child to succeed, even if its demanding.

 

[Lynne]

I'm on the fence about contracts. At our school, we sign a contract for either six months or one year. I know it's also a business. Master R has two buildings and I'm sure there is a lot of overhead. He also has at least 14 paid instructors. And he has his own family to clothe and feed. Contracts keep people from dropping out without good reason (illness, injury, moving away). If people dropped out willy-nilly, he couldn't stay in business.

When my daughter and I joined black belt club the contract was extended by three years. Since we are determined to reach black belt, I don't have too much of a problem but...as someone warned me about a year ago, things can change. I just found out that for my daughter and I to achieve black belt that we must attend a summer camp as well as an annual competition that requires travel to Massachusetts for both. The problem is $ for one thing. My husband would be going which means we have to pay camp tuition for him as well (yes, he could choose not to go but we only have one car right now - I guess I could rent one next year). We have to kennel the dog. There is hotel and gas. On and on.

We also have to participate in our school's annual competition or we are not allowed to test the following few months. It is not cheap for two either. A lot of my classmates don't like this either. We don't say too much however. We don't stand around complaining and whining a whole lot. It was just a shock to us. But we look at it as part of the discipline of MA.

In one way, contracts seem morally wrong to me regards martial arts. On the otherhand, if you want to support yourself and your family, you still have to run the school like a business. And that means contracts, registration fees, and monthly tuition I suppose.

 

[jks9199]

Contracts aren't evil. Contracts that bind someone for long terms with no way to get out are unfair. But I understand why a commercial school owner (even if it's only a part-time job for the guy) needs to know that they're going to have $x per month, too. I've got a gym membership. It is, of course, governed by a contract. It's worth the money to me to have the convenience of going there when I want to -- even if some months I don't go at all. One thing they've done recently that I liked is they set the contract for an initial term -- then it automatically continues month to month, unless cancelled.

Regarding testing: Testing opportunities should be scheduled, if the promotion process is based on testing. There shouldn't be any automatic pass in any testing situation; if so, all you do is cheapen the meaning of the test and grading.

Mandatory participation... I'm a little conflicted here. If you're receiving the association's (whether it's a national group or just the school) endorsement, you need to jump through their hoops and be an active participant. At the same time -- the group has the obligation to recognize the impact on its members, and balance that. Some folks work weekends, meaning that a "weekend seminar" means taking a good chunck of a week off (Friday, Saturday, Sunday) ; others simply can't afford a week off here and there. There's a balancing act that needs to be done.

Black belt clubs... I don't like these. Too often, it seems that I hear too much about about how certain training is only open to club members, or that club members get the information or opportunities for testing that aren't available to non-club members. Or just that you're not going to make black belt unless you sign up for the club... or that members WILL make black belt in the contracted time. That just doesn't seem right to me.

 

[Grenadier]

Every school wants committed students. Contracts are simply a way of making sure that you get them. I realize, that some people aren't going to like what I have just said, but because they're obligated to pay, they're going to at least want to get their money's worth.

If you're a school owner / manager, if you have a school that lets a student pay for just the months they decide to attend, you'd better have at least 4-5 months of reserve income stashed away, since for the most part, those summer months are going to have smaller classes. If you can survive those lean months, then more power to you, but at least having contracts in place gives you a much more solid income base.

Students will go on vacation, etc., and that's perfectly understandable. Just allow them to make up the missed classes, and allow them to "double up" on their hours. This way, they still get their money's worth.



A well-written contract that is fair, should include "out clauses." There are some things that are beyond the student's control, and in those circumstances, I'd have no problem cancelling the contract.

For example:

If a student moves, and relocates to a place that is a certain number of miles away from any of the school's locations, then cancelling the contract should be OK. Families are going to relocate at times, since the job market can be awfully fickle. High school graduate students leave for college, and should not be punished for doing so.

If a student cannot continue due to health reasons, mental or physical, and cannot find a replacement to step in to take over the original contract, then cancelling should be OK.

There are other situations that are perfectly acceptable, of course, but for the most part, if you signed a contract, you should abide by the terms. If you aren't comfortable with the contracts available, then it's probably better that you don't sign it.

 

[RevIV]

I am not a fan of the black belt club either. It shows a sort of Classism within the dojo. Some people just cannot afford to sign up for the black belt club so they get discouraged by feeling inferior not only economicaly but also Material wise as well. I do not mandate anything besides knowing your material. We run 2 tournaments a year and seminars that we encourage but do not punish if you do not go.

 

[shihansmurf]

I've got problems with lots of that. Beginning with the mercantile approach (after all, I'm VERY non-profit!). You pay dues to cover rent of the facility, purchase of needed equipment, and occasionally I even get some gas money. I don't charge more for additional training sessions; I don't charge less for fewer. Does your homeowner's association adjust the dues for the length of the month?

There are times when I can't teach; I may send a substitute or arrange a special training session -- or assign a select senior student to instruct.

There are times when I will have a senior student instruct under my supervision. That's how they'll learn to teach. Martial arts is not simply an athletic activity; when I train a black belt, they can perform as an instructor. Some are not ideally suited to do so -- but all are capable.

The overall association provides additional training opportunities for me and my students, as well as competition opportunities and the simple fact of some larger body to play within. Membership also, in our association's case, carries certain insurance benefits while training.

The class or school may close for a number of reasons. I may not be able to honor a commitment to teach x number of students privately in their homes; I do have to feed and clothe my own family.

I do agree with elements of the list: outside of class, I'm Jim. Or my professional titles. Not Coach, Instructor, Saya, Sabumnim, Sensei, or Grand Googly Woggly, for example.

What your bill of rights describes is a good model for an aerobics class or some other similar exercises -- but not for something that goes beyond mere physical activity. If that's all your martial arts are, that's fine. But that's not how I was taught, nor is it how I teach.

While the way you run your school sound like a great program you are not really the type of school or instructor that inspired the bill of rights, I presume, as I am not the author. I just found the article interesting and relevant to the discussion.

I note that you don't charge more for additional training sessions, although you would be well within your rights to do so, I think that the student would be well within his rights to demand a refund if you tught less than he paid for. If you went to McDonald's and ordered a Big Mac would you pay for it if you only got one All Beef Patty and no Special Sauce? How are karate classes any different?

Having a senior student teach periodicaly under you supervision is a far cry different than "Yeah, I know you signed up to train under me, but my brown belt needs to learn to teach so here you go. I'll see you on test day". I've experienced this. It is a sort of false advertising, bait and switch. I find the practice dishonest and have left a school over this very fact.

I don't object to things like student instructors, structured class rules, most traditions, and habits that we have attached to our sport. Where I have a problem is with most of the predatory buisiness practices that many teachers and orgs engage in. The truth of the matters is that as instructors, no matter how we slice it, we enter into a business relationship with our students. From the moment that they handed you (you being general, not you specifically) a dollar you incurred certain obligations toward them. As for the idea that the martial arts are somehow "more" than any other physical hobby, I don't believe that. All of the positive benifits that get touted about the traditional martial arts I experienced in both boxing and football. As a matter of fact I found the coaches in both sports to be much more free of the ego, self absorbed crap, and general negativity than in the TMAs.

Just my experience, your mileage my differ.

Mark

 

[Lynne]

I am not a fan of the black belt club either. It shows a sort of Classism within the dojo. Some people just cannot afford to sign up for the black belt club so they get discouraged by feeling inferior not only economicaly but also Material wise as well. I do not mandate anything besides knowing your material. We run 2 tournaments a year and seminars that we encourage but do not punish if you do not go.

I understand that some schools do charge for black belt club. Ours does not.

I'll tell you why I signed up. It was so I could attend more than twice a week. Our classes are either 45 minutes long or one hour long, depending on the night/morning one attends. We do a lot of conditioning work and that takes up a lot of time. Students are always panicking come spotlight or test time. They don't know their wrist grips, hand-foot combinations as well as they should. I want to know my material. I also want more conditioning than twice a week (I do some on my own, too). Black belt club members may attend as often as they like. If not a club member, one signs up for the once a week program or the twice a week program.

We also learn some of the Chil-Sung forms which are black belt forms. That's not exactly a free ride. We may be tested on Chil-Sung forms during spotlighting or testing. If we can't perform the Chil-Sung, I imagine we do not pass. Also, we are expected to do a Chil-Sung form in competition. The annual school competition is mandatory. So, more is expected out of black belt club members.

Yes, we do have advantages. We learn self-defense techniques such as grabs and throws that are not taught below black belt level. We have had some escrima training (not with the actual sticks but the coordination training with partners). We've also had tumbling - shoulder rolls, cartwheels. Those come in handy during boardbreaking. (Not for me, I still can't do them.)

We also get 10% off on merchandise - DVD's, apparel, and books.

The 3 year extension in no way guarantees a black belt at such and such time. In fact, it's quite common for people to not pass their first black belt test. We have to test just like everyone else.

I would actually say that black belt club can be a hinderance to training. We often have black belt club week right before a test. That means we aren't working on regular belt material. So, a student must be motivated and better be practicing at home and attending at least twice a week.

I would be cautious about signing up kids for black belt club. I would not do it. I know of a situation where parents insisted that the school let them sign their 5 (yes, 5) year old up for black belt club. The parents kept insisting and our school said ok. A five-year old cannot possibly comprehend the concepts of martial virtue or what a black belt is. We know who the foxes were behind this.

I can understand people's concerns, the elitism and all of that. It was important to me to attend more than twice a week. What would I do at if I could only attend twice a week at 1st gup?

 

[Lynne]

Now that I've been training for awhile, I know some questions to ask. I would caution anyone to ask:

1) Under what conditions may I get out of this contract?

2) Must I compete? How often? WHERE? (Our school has to travel out-of-state at a certain point.) How much do competitions cost? What competition activities must I particpate in and how much does each activity cost, i.e., boardbreaking, forms, sparring, weapons, etc. How much do boards generally cost?

3) When will I need sparring gear? How much does sparring gear cost? (Go to EBAY my friend.)

4) Are students required to teach at some point? Are students required to volunteer for summer camps, Christmas camps, whatever?

5) Must I compete in in-house tournaments? How much do they cost?

6) How much are testing fees?

7) What does it cost to belong to the federation, association, etc? You will have to join if your school belongs to a governing group.

8) Are there any other fees?

9) Is my tuition locked in? Are the registration fees locked in?

10) How much are uniforms?

11) Do I have to buy patches and what do they cost? Yes and yes.

12) Can I make up classes?

That's all I can think of right now.

 

[terryl965]

Lynne I am directing this at you just because of this part of your post, MY CLUB DOES NOT CHARGE FOR A BB CLUB

First off if you have a seperate club for those wishing to be a BB then that means the rest of the group is kinda left behind and to me all my students are here to obtain at some point and time. Also I gaurentee your Master is making some sort of monetary gain or there would not be a club, maybe a special uniform or because you are in a BB club then you deserve weapons training and you have to buy weapons. Maybe it is a special training only at seminars but like I said he is making something or there is no reason to have one period.

Now Lynne on to some of your other question, must of them are great ones and I applaud them but to me an instructor should tell each perspective students fee's upfront like tournaments, travel, association and equipment. I know I tell all of mine these are some of the fee's and the longer you stay they may get more expensive with the economy. Be prepared for that and remember everything in life has a cost associated with it, one way or another.

 

[shihansmurf]

Two of the schools I've trained at have had Black Belt Clubs. I'm not really a big fan of the concept. I thought that being a black belt was a cool enough thing in and of itself.

How I work the concept, or at least as close as I come to it, is this. All BBs that I have trained are part of the BBC for free. The only perk is that they get to attend Black Belt level training. I shouldn't say for free, though, because they are expected to help train each other. I require my black belts to engage in self directed study, seminars, branch out into other systems, research. They are then expected to share their knowledge freely in the BB club. As a side not I don't charge my BBs class dues. I see them as peers once they become members of the Yudansha.

Mark