Martial Arts Based on attacking pressure points

[K-man]

Kata DOES NOT work just fine, in and of itself, nor do cookie cutter techniques and kata forms apply well in a real engagement.

Not quite sure what you are saying here. Kata as it is taught, should be a fighting system. In a real engagement it will work extremely well if you have been taught to use it that way.

What do you mean by angles? Angles of your body--Angles of attack/defense, angles relative to the opponent/movement, all of the above? If so -solo Kata, or practicing such forms will only give you angle of technique, but not relative to an attacker in a dynamic way.

The angle or direction in the kata gives you the angle that you are to your attacker. It may be you are in front, beside behind or 45 deg relative to him.

Find a grandmaster or blackbelt etc who has solo kata experience alone, -and I likely won't have to put my tea down to handle them. (with no malice and in a friendly fashion of course).

Not entirely sure what you mean by 'solo kata'. If you mean solo practice I will agree with you 100%.

I like the not relying on the attacker doing anything after the initial attack, but you lost me on the rest. Initially you should have the intent to eliminate the threat to yourself in the most efficient / safe / legal manner, while moving into strike for example you are not anticipating any specific response, but your training should have built in some auto-reactions to a multitude of responses, and should be automatic under-duress.

I agree totally. That is exactly what I meant when I said that the attacker might block your first strike but would be unlikely to block the second. The intent from the start is to eliminate the threat. I go along with the efficient and safe from my point of view, but if my life is threatened, I couldn't give a damn about 'legal'. If my life is not at risk I won't be fighting. The training involves responding in a way that limits the attacker's response to your attack. If his response is slow, or if he doesn't respond at all, he is hit. If he manages to get an arm up to protect I know exactly where that arm will be and move to the next step, only if required.

Trying to have "Predetermined responses" can be suicide. Of course at first, techniques, kate movements ect. are taught and executed as pre-determined responses to pre-determined / anticipated attacks. This is only step 1 (if you are lucky to move beyond kata).

Again, I think you have totally misconstrued what I wrote. There is no predetermined attack. The exception here is when you are training a particular sequence. In reality there is no predetermined attack although you might have an indication from the attacker's posturing. Once his attack is launched you are reacting in the way you have trained, whatever that may be in that particular situation. From the position you are in you move into the kata and your attacker's response should be what you are expecting. Sometimes that doesn't happen and you then respond in the way that is appropriate to attack and once again depending on where you are you can move back into the kata.

When training there is no choreographed response. The attacker can do what ever he likes. Remember, our training is hands on, not at tournament sparring distance. Nothing works if you are not connected. This is not sparring.

Trying to "continue" the kata in a real time situation is ridiculously stupid (nothing personal) - perhaps you did not mean it in this way, and I am mis-reading you, the net is imperfect in that way...Now if you mean - dynamically change to another technique that is contained in A kata (but in no particular sequence) - then I would agree, I just didnt read that from your post....

I must plead guilty to being ridiculously stupid because I did mean it that way. Perhaps you have never seen a fighting system performed this way. I was only introduced to it three years ago and up until then only had a vague idea it even existed. But, you are right in that I do mean to dynamically change to another technique, just that that technique is the next step in whatever kata I am using. The kata is a 'fail safe'. If the first move fails, move to the next. The next move in the kata gets you out of trouble. However, if you haven't trained it that way it is no better than the best box of bits and pieces and no instruction book. And that is how I think you are viewing kata. As a big box of individual pieces. If kata was really like that, why were the secrets so jealously protected?

You may be right, with a properly executed defense/attack / or as I say "counter offensive tactics", should should get through quickly, in fact, you should get through instantly (around a 1 count), or NEAR that instantly, if your not--find a new teacher. (this of course does not apply if your training partner/opponent is REALLY skilled, more back and forth would be expected) - but it still has to be trained for, and built into your system/style.

I would be hoping for one response, end of exercise, but in reality we must be prepared for all sorts of issues, not he least being adrenalin. That is actually another good point for the kata. It becomes the conditioned response and none of it involves fine motor skills.

When we train with an experienced partner, of course he knows what is coming next and is prepared to block. We train slowly at first and pick up the pace. When I am the partner I don't think about the kata. I just respond in the way that any trained person would instinctively react. I don't comply with my partner. If we pick up the speed a little more you soon run out of defence. One attack is followed by another and another. You have nowhere to go. The is no going back and forth. You press at all times and once engaged you don't lose contact.

AHA, so perhaps before I was so harsh I should have read more carefully, it seems as though you may be saying that you "can enter a kata at any point" , so basically pick any technique or sequence thereof, and "switch to another kata at many points" --these two conditions together lead me to believe (giving you the benefit of the doubt) that you are simply saying --- One should use any technique / method from any kata at any time as the situation dictates.

Don't give me the benefit of the doubt. You can certainly enter at any kata at any point and it may well be the only technique you use. If it fails to finish the confrontation you move to the next move in the kata. If you need another move you could move to the next move in the kata you are using or switch to another kata where a different technique follows the one that was common to both kata.

Anyhow, even if the above doesn't apply to you, perhaps it will get the point across to someone who needed to hear it.

In the broader sense I think the idea of "kata" is outdated, in a sense it was used (among other things) to catalog moves before the days of video. Using a long sequence of moves is unrealistic. While it can serve as a memory device and help string together moves, many forms are not so well conceived.

I think that perhaps you have never seen kata used as a fighting system. Using a long sequence of moves is unrealistic. It is only used in training to build an automatic response. Ideally we are using just one or two moves.

One is better off learning a principle of self-defense/attack/movement, and then learning to execute that principle dynamically in numerous ways.(After/during learning bio-mechanical and movement principles)

That is exactly what we are doing.

Many teachers do it the other way, they teach 100 techniques to give the student 1 principle.

That is pretty much what I do in training against weapons.

The only kind of "form" or "kata" one should be doing if their only goal is self-defense (or they do not want to detract from that goal too much with Mal-training) - should be SHORT, FLUID, and VARIABLE motion/method drills. Then,they can then be spontaneously strung together during a fight, and during practice, it is quite fun, and free flowing, and makes great fodder for two man drills.

Once again, that is exactly what we are doing. We are practising small sequences that are strung together. Once they are strung together they form the kata. Once you know several kata you can start to move between the kata. And it is great for two man drills. As I said in another post it is about 75% of our training.

I think the problem is that very few people are exposed to the type of training I am describing. It is not what you will find in 99.9% of karate schools.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...4bmrCg&usg=AFQjCNFoECuGPeHWGZVpESmkW1eUsj9BrQ

This was the first time I met Bryson and saw this interpretation of kata. The version he is using here is the basic one. You modify it to work for you but the principle remains constant. Just do the kata!

This particular seminar caused me to leave the organisation I was with to go out on my own. I have never regretted that decision. :asian:

 

[rickster]

K-man,

Is Bunkai Kata, or Kata Bunkai?

Talou, Randori, Pumsae, Teul, Hyeong, Aka, terms given to what Occidentals deem only as "patterns"

Many Occidental cannot grasp many hidden meanings of martial art forums.

 

[K-man]

K-man,

Is Bunkai Kata, or Kata Bunkai?

Talou, Randori, Pumsae, Teul, Hyeong, Aka, terms given to what Occidentals deem only as "patterns"

Many Occidental cannot grasp many hidden meanings of martial art forums.

Neither. Kata is the basic or kihon form. It is a sequence of techniques that flow from one to the next. If you like, yes it is the pattern or template. Depending on the style they can appear soft and flowing as in Tai Chi or quite rigid if you look at some of the Japanese karate.

This kihon form is the form taught first and handed down from teacher to student. It is if you like, the guide book. Now, people open the book, take a technique and say, "this is ABC". That may be true, but, it may also be any one of a dozen other things as well.

Most people never progress beyond this stage and most schools don't spend a lot of time on kata.

Once you start to speed the kata up it starts to lose the sharp edges and the stiffness and it starts to flow. In Goju there is a hard and soft aspect to kata. Between strikes the body relaxes ready for he next explosion, then relaxes again. This is more the advanced form of kata.

Most kata are performed in a manner that you don't need a lot of space. They change direction frequently and can often end back on the same point. Many people have interpreted the turns as meaning you have multiple opponents, but I believe you only have one. To involve two opponents necessitates choreography or how else does the second attacker know when to attack?

From this form you can now 'unpack' the kata and work in a straight line. Where you have turned you now continue forward.

Now you can introduce two man drills at any time. Quite often I will teach the drills before he kata. These two man drills are the bunkai. How you interpret the kata in a one on one situation. There are, most times, multiple explanations for the techniques and part of the journey is discovering for yourself what these techniques could be. Is it a strike or could it be an arm break? Is it really a 'block' or is it a neck crank? Is it a flat fist or is it a knuckle punch? The possibilities are endless.

So to return to your question. The kata is the kata and the bunkai is the explanation of the kata in a practical sense.

As to what came first? That's like the chicken or the egg. Could be either, it doesn't matter. :asian:

 

[Master Dan]

I would like to add that one of the most important things about Kata PoomSe what ever with a knowledge of PP and not just in theory but having experienced both the pain of the applications and result of applying them is should make a person more weary of protecting thier own vital areas and that in real confrontation there is contact and the pre covering move to atack or block as you like is more important before you even move hence being able to take a blow to get where you need to be. The best teachers are those who have had to really use it and have found it changes on many levels due to different people and environment adn the ability to over time naturally automatically indentify even gravitate mentally to targets of oportunity.

 

[Flying Crane]

Find a grandmaster or blackbelt etc who has solo kata experience alone, -and I likely won't have to put my tea down to handle them. (with no malice and in a friendly fashion of course).

who ever said kata alone? Kata is one tool, one part of training. No single training method alone gives the best results. Kata, like sparring, like basics, like application, like...anything else you care to list, is one part of training. It contributes to the overall development. Nobody said, do kata and nothing else.

In the broader sense I think the idea of "kata" is outdated, in a sense it was used (among other things) to catalog moves before the days of video. Using a long sequence of moves is unrealistic. While it can serve as a memory device and help string together moves, many forms are not so well conceived. One is better off learning a principle of self-defense/attack/movement, and then learning to execute that principle dynamically in numerous ways.(After/during learning bio-mechanical and movement principles)

You are welcome to believe this, if you wish. Others of us know this to not be true, but what IS true is that kata must be properly taught and properly understood in order to get the benefits from its practice. In my opinion, the vast majority of people do not properly understand nor properly practice kata. For them, you are correct, it does them no good. And I do agree with you in that not all kata are created equal. I've seen some for which I believe there is no value, they were poorly designed and poorly built by people who did not know what they were doing.

 

[K-man]

who ever said kata alone? Kata is one tool, one part of training. No single training method alone gives the best results. Kata, like sparring, like basics, like application, like...anything else you care to list, is one part of training. It contributes to the overall development. Nobody said, do kata and nothing else.



You are welcome to believe this, if you wish. Others of us know this to not be true, but what IS true is that kata must be properly taught and properly understood in order to get the benefits from its practice. In my opinion, the vast majority of people do not properly understand nor properly practice kata. For them, you are correct, it does them no good. And I do agree with you in that not all kata are created equal. I've seen some for which I believe there is no value, they were poorly designed and poorly built by people who did not know what they were doing.

For my BB grading I had to 'know' eleven kata. From outside Goju we also had Naihanchi sandan. At the time, I thought that was pretty good. Especially because I knew the next kata to perform in competition and the following two for future grading. In reality, I didn't 'know' one! Like most people I thought kata were there to be collected, like stamps. Oh, how little I really knew.

If students a hundred years ago spent five years learning Sanchin kata and the early masters knew only two or three kata in total, how stupid are we to think we can 'learn' so many kata in such little time.

Now, I don't 'know' even ONE kata, but I'm working hard to change that. :asian:

(BTW .. Michael, you are so right about useless kata. I stopped teaching the first five I was taught the first day after I left my original style. They were fine for practising basics but they had no practical application.)

 

[Flying Crane]

For my BB grading I had to 'know' eleven kata. From outside Goju we also had Naihanchi sandan. At the time, I thought that was pretty good. Especially because I knew the next kata to perform in competition and the following two for future grading. In reality, I didn't 'know' one! Like most people I thought kata were there to be collected, like stamps. Oh, how little I really knew.

If students a hundred years ago spent five years learning Sanchin kata and the early masters knew only two or three kata in total, how stupid are we to think we can 'learn' so many kata in such little time.

Now, I don't 'know' even ONE kata, but I'm working hard to change that. :asian:

(BTW .. Michael, you are so right about useless kata. I stopped teaching the first five I was taught the first day after I left my original style. They were fine for practising basics but they had no practical application.)

yeah, I had done the same thing. I studied several systems under several teachers, if I counted them all up I probably had upwards of 40-50 or even more forms, and I tried to keep practicing them all. I didn't understand how to practice them, I just raced thru them. Nothing but conditioning.

the truth is, if you have good forms and got good instruction, you only need 2-5 or so. And five is really kinda indulging. Kata does contain useful application, but in my opinion that is of second importance. What is first importance, and what I believe most people do not understand, is that kata is a drill that helps you understand and develop the fundamental principles upon which the system is built, and the useful techniques in the kata are simply examples of how to use those principles. If you don't understand the principles, then the application will only be second-rate. If you understand the principles, then the application is only necessary as an example, and in a real fight you can apply the principles to any movement, and make any movement a powerful technique. You do not need to use the techniques and applications from the kata (tho you can, there's nothing wrong with that). They are just a vehicle to get you to open your eyes.

 

[GaryR]

I think the problem is that very few people are exposed to the type of training I am describing. It is not what you will find in 99.9% of karate schools.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...4bmrCg&usg=AFQjCNFoECuGPeHWGZVpESmkW1eUsj9BrQ

This was the first time I met Bryson and saw this interpretation of kata. The version he is using here is the basic one. You modify it to work for you but the principle remains constant. Just do the kata!

This particular seminar caused me to leave the organisation I was with to go out on my own. I have never regretted that decision. :asian:

That's great you went out on your own, congrats!

The sad thing is your likely right about 99.9 percent of karate schools exposed to even that type of training (the type I saw in Bryson's clip) - The depcited video is a great example of a beginner training methods in the style/system. BUT his material is still mechanically inferior and inefficient comparatively; (with the caveot it is a WONDERFUL example of his style, and better than many Karate instructors).

However, If you are still trying to "interpret" a kata or sequence of kata and force it to work in that form in a dynamic fighting situation, you are simply at a near beginner level, period. "Deciding" what to use-or more distinctly "acting" or "reacting" -- should be largely based on strategy and tactile sensitivity, not necessarily a "kata" movement or sequence, although on of the former COULD manifest real time, and that should be one of the goals of doing the kata in the first place. Tactile sensitivity offers instant body information related to the opponents power, position, balance, and direction, that kata cannot teach you, this information along with the visual cues (via peripheral vision ideally) allow one to react without thought of any kata, sequence, or particular move.


More comments within comment below:

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Kata DOES NOT work just fine, in and of itself, nor do cookie cutter techniques and kata forms apply well in a real engagement.

Not quite sure what you are saying here. Kata as it is taught, should be a fighting system. In a real engagement it will work extremely well if you have been taught to use it that way.
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Perhaps we are just having semantics issues. Defining things and being specific is key to good discussion, so lets define:

kata = a sequence of movements which has the function of at least -1) teaching mechanics 2) movement 3) application 4) memory device for catalog of methods/movements. Kata in and of itself is NOT a fighting system, by no complete measure. Kata is merely a component of a fighting system, and its also a widely outdated and poorly used component at that.




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What do you mean by angles? Angles of your body--Angles of attack/defense, angles relative to the opponent/movement, all of the above? If so -solo Kata, or practicing such forms will only give you angle of technique, but not relative to an attacker in a dynamic way.

The angle or direction in the kata gives you the angle that you are to your attacker. It may be you are in front, beside behind or 45 deg relative to him.

No, the angle or direction of the kata gives your the angle you are relative to yourself, thin air, etc. NOT relative to a real attacker (unless of course they are present).

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...I couldn't give a damn about 'legal'. If my life is not at risk I won't be fighting. The training involves responding in a way that limits the attacker's response to your attack. If his response is slow, or if he doesn't respond at all, he is hit. If he manages to get an arm up to protect I know exactly where that arm will be and move to the next step, only if required.

I agree, if your life is not at risk you shouldn't be fighting. I mention legal because your training and de-escalation strategy ect. should take into account state self-defense laws, proportionality of force, etc. "Boundry" setting for example is a useful training tool and DE-escaltion method that takes into account several components to assisting in the affirmative defense of---self defense (or defense of others).

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...From the position you are in you move into the kata and your attacker's response should be what you are expecting. Sometimes that doesn't happen and you then respond in the way that is appropriate to attack and once again depending on where you are you can move back into the kata......

I understand what your saying here, you are simply not using the most optimal training method /mindset, or our communication wires are crossed.

You should'nt be trying to "move into the position of the kata", in the first place, but putting that issue aside for a moment, you should not really be expecting anything in particular, of course in many situations you can "count" on a flinch response (hand covering face, crossing legs or moving back in response to knee strike et al.) - in which case your method should already have a built in adaptation/variation, or way of dealing with such "response". That adaptation is not necessarily in the Kata, it can't possibly be unless your kata is infinitely long. But the real frame of mind I think dangerous/inadequate is that where you say you "can move back into the kata", you should move into what works, period. If thats a part of some kata-fine, if not-fine. But again this is where tactile sensitivity rules, not pre-thought sequences.

When training there is no choreographed response. The attacker can do what ever he likes. Remember, our training is hands on, not at tournament sparring distance. Nothing works if you are not connected. This is not sparring.

I think direct kata application is a choreographed response (espcially when your training partner knows what kata you are doing), the video looked like a canned form response in several respects (I could be wrong). This is fine for training, a stepping stone, but like I said, responding with a sequence of kata moves = choreographed to a large extent.

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Trying to "continue" the kata in a real time situation is ridiculously stupid (nothing personal) - perhaps you did not mean it in this way, and I am mis-reading you, the net is imperfect in that way...Now if you mean - dynamically change to another technique that is contained in A kata (but in no particular sequence) - then I would agree, I just didnt read that from your post....

I must plead guilty to being ridiculously stupid because I did mean it that way.

Well, my friend, I know exactly what you mean, and your now promoted to simply "ignorant" which I distinguish from stupid, and greatly distinguish from ridiculously stupid

Perhaps you have never seen a fighting system performed this way. I was only introduced to it three years ago and up until then only had a vague idea it even existed.

I gaurantee you I've seen fighting systems/styles performed and taught this way before. I've also seen, learned, and taught how to apply that same material in a better way. I've also after friendly demos (some non-avoidably unfriendly) caused numerous highly ranked karateka to abandon their old training completly, or near completely. Most wishing they could undue years and years of bad training and mechanics. Hindsight is always 20/20, and in life I don't think anyone has perfect vision.

Of course Id prefer using other material which is far superior as a starting template - the reverse punch for example is an example of mal-training (along with much kata content). Back to pressurepoint karateka----Back in the day Dillman and Moneymaker (one or both??) even sent me courtesy copies of their tapes (which I thought were GOOD for karate as well). But still, the movements are more rigid, lack the economy of motion, and are breaking some basic bio-mechanical / rules of physics that are holding them back, also even attempting to adhere to a long sequence (if that's what your doing) is well...not helpful, despite how comparatively helpful it was to what you were doing

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But, you are right in that I do mean to dynamically change to another technique, just that that technique is the next step in whatever kata I am using. The kata is a 'fail safe'. If the first move fails, move to the next. The next move in the kata gets you out of trouble.



Its not really "dynamic" if your are going to the next step in whetever kata you are using, I can gaurantee you that there will be a situation where the next move in whatever kata you are doing will not help you, or will not be the most optimal move at least. If your next reason is well--it could be a different move in the sequence...then there really is no "kata" sequence being used, merely an isoloated techniqe.

The kata may feel like a failsafe, but no pre=programmed response (especially one as a sequence) is a good failsafe plan. This is no "fail safe" plan for the reccord, especially one that involves using the next move in a sequence.

However, if you haven't trained it that way it is no better than the best box of bits and pieces and no instruction book. And that is how I think you are viewing kata. As a big box of individual pieces. If kata was really like that, why were the secrets so jealously protected?

I understand kata is not a big box of individual pieces, I give kata more credit than that! In fact, going to your instruction book idea-- I would liken each individual movement in a kata a potential "book index" for a multitude of methods/respones/martial actions, etc. The map is not the territory however, learning the map, the index, and the content is the begging--and could be a LONG discussion--not to mention applying the "book" real time is a disscussion that could go for volumes.




When we train with an experienced partner, of course he knows what is coming next and is prepared to block. We train slowly at first and pick up the pace. When I am the partner I don't think about the kata. I just respond in the way that any trained person would instinctively react. I don't comply with my partner. If we pick up the speed a little more you soon run out of defence. One attack is followed by another and another. You have nowhere to go. The is no going back and forth. You press at all times and once engaged you don't lose contact.

Excellent, great training, I also agree to press at all times and not loose contact when engaged, but the reality is you have to train for the worse, I add disconnects on both end of two man drills to prepare for Mr. Murphy.



I think that perhaps you have never seen kata used as a fighting system. Using a long sequence of moves is unrealistic. It is only used in training to build an automatic response. Ideally we are using just one or two moves.

I have seen it used in every context, nor it is a complete fighting system in and of itself. Of course a long series of moves is unrealistic, using a smaller series, or series of two is of course much more likely, but not always possible to plan. Ideally it should be over in one or two moves I agree...

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One is better off learning a principle of self-defense/attack/movement, and then learning to execute that principle dynamically in numerous ways.(After/during learning bio-mechanical and movement principles)

That is exactly what we are doing.

It does'nt sound like it completely, nor does it look like it in the clip.
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Many teachers do it the other way, they teach 100 techniques to give the student 1 principle.

That is pretty much what I do in training against weapons.

Thats what you should be doing for everything. A weaon is in large part an extention of the body, Kali people are fun to work with for this.


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Once again, that is exactly what we are doing. We are practising small sequences that are strung together. Once they are strung together they form the kata. Once you know several kata you can start to move between the kata. And it is great for two man drills. As I said in another post it is about 75% of our training.

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Cool, great to hear, see the above...

Best,

Gary

 

[K-man]

That's great you went out on your own, congrats!

The sad thing is your likely right about 99.9 percent of karate schools exposed to even that type of training (the type I saw in Bryson's clip) - The depcited video is a great example of a beginner training methods in the style/system. BUT his material is still mechanically inferior and inefficient comparatively; (with the caveot it is a WONDERFUL example of his style, and better than many Karate instructors).

Of course it was beginner training method. It was the first time these guys had seen it. I posted it it so that you might have understood the rationale, not of an example of it being applied.

However, If you are still trying to "interpret" a kata or sequence of kata and force it to work in that form in a dynamic fighting situation, you are simply at a near beginner level, period.

And that demonstrates that you have not understood anything I have posted.

"Deciding" what to use-or more distinctly "acting" or "reacting" -- should be largely based on strategy and tactile sensitivity, not necessarily a "kata" movement or sequence, although on of the former COULD manifest real time, and that should be one of the goals of doing the kata in the first place. Tactile sensitivity offers instant body information related to the opponents power, position, balance, and direction, that kata cannot teach you, this information along with the visual cues (via peripheral vision ideally) allow one to react without thought of any kata, sequence, or particular move.

True, but that has nothing to do with whether you use the kata or not.


Kata is merely a component of a fighting system, and its also a widely outdated and poorly used component

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I believe it is totally wrong. I repeat what I said above "In a real engagement it (kata) will work extremely well if you have been taught to use it that way."
you obviously have not been taught to use it that way. You are right when you say it is poorly used.

What do you mean by angles? Angles of your body--Angles of attack/defense, angles relative to the opponent/movement, all of the above? If so -solo Kata, or practicing such forms will only give you angle of technique, but not relative to an attacker in a dynamic way.

The angle or direction in the kata gives you the angle that you are to your attacker. It may be you are in front, beside behind or 45 deg relative to him.

No, the angle or direction of the kata gives your the angle you are relative to yourself, thin air, etc. NOT relative to a real attacker (unless of course they are present).

Once again, this is your opinion. If you can see how the angles portrayed in kata are used, that is your problem.

...From the position you are in you move into the kata and your attacker's response should be what you are expecting. Sometimes that doesn't happen and you then respond in the way that is appropriate to attack and once again depending on where you are you can move back into the kata......

I understand what your saying here, you are simply not using the most optimal training method /mindset, or our communication wires are crossed.

What you are saying is that you know better than the guys who are teaching this method of fighting. I very much doubt that.

You should'nt be trying to "move into the position of the kata", in the first place, but putting that issue aside for a moment, you should not really be expecting anything in particular, of course in many situations you can "count" on a flinch response (hand covering face, crossing legs or moving back in response to knee strike et al.) - in which case your method should already have a built in adaptation/variation, or way of dealing with such "response".

Yes. It is based on the flinch response. You respond or you get hit. And seeing I know where I am hitting I know where my opponent's arm will be if he manages to block. I would call that a predetermined response.

That adaptation is not necessarily in the Kata, it can't possibly be unless your kata is infinitely long. But the real frame of mind I think dangerous/inadequate is that where you say you "can move back into the kata", you should move into what works, period. If thats a part of some kata-fine, if not-fine. But again this is where tactile sensitivity rules, not pre-thought sequences.

When training there is no choreographed response. The attacker can do what ever he likes. Remember, our training is hands on, not at tournament sparring distance. Nothing works if you are not connected. This is not sparring.

I think direct kata application is a choreographed response (espcially when your training partner knows what kata you are doing), the video looked like a canned form response in several respects (I could be wrong). This is fine for training, a stepping stone, but like I said, responding with a sequence of kata moves = choreographed to a large extent.

You can think what you like. I am telling you there is no choreography in what we do. What you have seen in most bunkai is choreography. There is no choreography in what we do. You are free to do whatever you like .. but if you don't put your arm between me and my target, you will be hit.

Trying to "continue" the kata in a real time situation is ridiculously stupid (nothing personal) - perhaps you did not mean it in this way, and I am mis-reading you, the net is imperfect in that way...Now if you mean - dynamically change to another technique that is contained in A kata (but in no particular sequence) - then I would agree, I just didnt read that from your post....

I must plead guilty to being ridiculously stupid because I did mean it that way.

Well, my friend, I know exactly what you mean, and your now promoted to simply "ignorant" which I distinguish from stupid, and greatly distinguish from ridiculously stupid

And you are becoming offensive!

Perhaps you have never seen a fighting system performed this way. I was only introduced to it three years ago and up until then only had a vague idea it even existed.

I gaurantee you I've seen fighting systems/styles performed and taught this way before. I've also seen, learned, and taught how to apply that same material in a better way. I've also after friendly demos (some non-avoidably unfriendly) caused numerous highly ranked karateka to abandon their old training completly, or near completely. Most wishing they could undue years and years of bad training and mechanics. Hindsight is always 20/20, and in life I don't think anyone has perfect vision.

Might I ask where you have seen this system demonstrated. if you haven't seen this system then your comments are totally out of line. Then perhaps you could show us an example of the 'better way' you mention.

Of course Id prefer using other material which is far superior as a starting template - the reverse punch for example is an example of mal-training (along with much kata content).

??? Come on. What a load of ..... ! Are you really trying to tell us that a front punch is more powerful that a reverse punch? And the kata content? And you claim to instruct in TCMA? Our kata came from Kung fu.

But, you are right in that I do mean to dynamically change to another technique, just that that technique is the next step in whatever kata I am using. The kata is a 'fail safe'. If the first move fails, move to the next. The next move in the kata gets you out of trouble.

Its not really "dynamic" if your are going to the next step in whetever kata you are using, I can gaurantee you that there will be a situation where the next move in whatever kata you are doing will not help you, or will not be the most optimal move at least. If your next reason is well--it could be a different move in the sequence...then there really is no "kata" sequence being used, merely an isoloated techniqe.

Once again, you have not understood anything of the training I have described.

The kata may feel like a failsafe, but no pre=programmed response (especially one as a sequence) is a good failsafe plan. This is no "fail safe" plan for the reccord, especially one that involves using the next move in a sequence.

However, if you haven't trained it that way it is no better than the best box of bits and pieces and no instruction book. And that is how I think you are viewing kata. As a big box of individual pieces. If kata was really like that, why were the secrets so jealously protected?

I understand kata is not a big box of individual pieces, I give kata more credit than that! In fact, going to your instruction book idea-- I would liken each individual movement in a kata a potential "book index" for a multitude of methods/respones/martial actions, etc. The map is not the territory however, learning the map, the index, and the content is the begging--and could be a LONG discussion--not to mention applying the "book" real time is a disscussion that could go for volumes.

And I also shared the same limited understanding for 20 or more years.

Gary, you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. You haven't seen the system so you have no way of judging it on its merits. You have preconceived ideas on kata and its value. I probably would have agreed with you a few years back but now we are at opposite ends of the spectrum. If you are interested, I think there are two schools in the US. Carlsbad, CA and New Jersey. There are some more videos of training in those venues on YouTube. Otherwise we will just have to agree to disagree. :asian:

 

[rickster]

You know what is truly attacking a "pressure point"?

Telling others that pressure points are useless in a real fight

 

[GaryR]

Hey K-man (do you have a real name BTW?-mine is actually Gary, or you can call me Gazz being an Ozzie)

I thought I'd start by replying to the last bit first. (My responses are all in green in case you didnt notice...)

"Gary, you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. You haven't seen the system so you have no way of judging it on its merits. You have preconceived ideas on kata and its value. I probably would have agreed with you a few years back but now we are at opposite ends of the spectrum. If you are interested, I think there are two schools in the US. Carlsbad, CA and New Jersey. There are some more videos of training in those venues on YouTube. Otherwise we will just have to agree to disagree"

I enjoy a good discussion, I only like to argue when there is a point to argue, but I think a good argument involves people teaching one another their side/position/information, and comparing to learn.

I have no preconceived ideas in general re kata and its value, by contrast I have extensive experience --spanning decades, and have traveled throughout the world. While I of course haven't seen your particular system/kata (beyond the provided clip) I have taught and trained with multiple instructors and 6 dan plus in your listed arts. The individuals were also quite "progressive" comparatively. I also stated I see value in kata, it's not the end all be all.

I'm always open to being shown I'm wrong, or am mis-reading--I would appreciate any clip links to You-tube, I didn't see any links in your profile.

Ultimately if we agree to disagree, cool, I just think we are on the same page yet as to the list we agree on and why

Carlesbad is a few miles from LA, not much time for that now, but after July (studying for CA bar exam now), I would be willing more than willing to host a BBQ and swap some training methods with any instructor from your organization that is friendly and willing. We are brothers (and sisters) in the arts, and ultimately, we should strive to better not just ourselves.

-----------------------------------------------

Of course it was beginner training method. It was the first time these guys had seen it. I posted it it so that you might have understood the rationale, not of an example of it being applied.

We are on the same page here, I am looking for / identified the underling rationale - the examples are neither here nor there.
-------------------------------------------------

However, If you are still trying to "interpret" a kata or sequence of kata and force it to work in that form in a dynamic fighting situation, you are simply at a near beginner level, period.

And that demonstrates that you have not understood anything I have posted.

What demonstrates it? Please explain how my quote is inaccurate or inapplicable to you (if it is)?

---------------

"Deciding" what to use-or more distinctly "acting" or "reacting" -- should be largely based on strategy and tactile sensitivity, not necessarily a "kata" movement or sequence, although on of the former COULD manifest real time, and that should be one of the goals of doing the kata in the first place. Tactile sensitivity offers instant body information related to the opponents power, position, balance, and direction, that kata cannot teach you, this information along with the visual cues (via peripheral vision ideally) allow one to react without thought of any kata, sequence, or particular move.

True, but that has nothing to do with whether you use the kata or not.

Wrong, what I mentioned DOES have everything to do with whether you use exactly "kata" or not--unless you did not mean exactly what you typed, or of course we are talking in two different contexts, which is also possible.
----------------------

Kata is merely a component of a fighting system, and its also a widely outdated and poorly used component

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I believe it is totally wrong. I repeat what I said above "In a real engagement it (kata) will work extremely well if you have been taught to use it that way."
you obviously have not been taught to use it that way. You are right when you say it is poorly used.

First question; Have you ever used your kata in a real situation? If so how many moves/sequence? How did it resemble or not resemble your perfect ideal form/application?

I agree with you here in a bigger way than you may think, a "method" or "principle" or heck even a specific "technique" MAY and SHOULD work and manifest extremely well under duress, if you have trained in the proper contexts. It sounds like your group is likely training in a more realistic context than most, I can see that from the clip.

However, I am not wrong in saying that kata is merely a component of a fighting system, unless you include in the definition of kata two person drills, sparring, adrenal stress training, ground fighting, weapons (practical) training, etc. etc. Kata as a solo form by itself is incapable of being a complete system.


---------
What do you mean by angles? Angles of your body--Angles of attack/defense, angles relative to the opponent/movement, all of the above? If so -solo Kata, or practicing such forms will only give you angle of technique, but not relative to an attacker in a dynamic way.

The angle or direction in the kata gives you the angle that you are to your attacker. It may be you are in front, beside behind or 45 deg relative to him.


No, the angle or direction of the kata gives your the angle you are relative to yourself, thin air, etc. NOT relative to a real attacker (unless of course they are present).

Once again, this is your opinion. If you can see how the angles portrayed in kata are used, that is your problem.

---------------------
You probably meant to type "can't" above. Of course I can see how the angles protrayed in a kata are used, that doesn't change the fact that Timing, positioning, and movement while doing a solo form are potentially very different than reality. I agree the form can train in the angles of attack / defense, ect, but all is relative, I want to be at the most advantageous angle to my opponent regardless of consideration for any kata sequence in the process.

This was not my opinion, this is an objective fact; "see[ing]" how the angles are used in a kata are not the same as actually applying the angels relative to an opponents unanticipated movement real-time.

-----------------------------

...From the position you are in you move into the kata and your attacker's response should be what you are expecting. Sometimes that doesn't happen and you then respond in the way that is appropriate to attack and once again depending on where you are you can move back into the kata......


I understand what your saying here, you are simply not using the most optimal training method /mindset, or our communication wires are crossed.

What you are saying is that you know better than the guys who are teaching this method of fighting. I very much doubt that.

--------------------------------------

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I could be wrong, but I HIGHLY doubt it. Perhaps with more video / information / discussion / demonstration I can be shown differently, but like I said its highly doubtful, especially given the breadth and depth of my knowledge and experience.
---------------------------------



"Yes. It is based on the flinch response. You respond or you get hit. And seeing I know where I am hitting I know where my opponent's arm will be if he manages to block. I would call that a predetermined response."

Sure, to that extent I agree, but beyond what you do after you contact/connect should not be pre-determined per se. There are many "strategies" for dealing with what happens with when your structure/body collides with that of your opponent, but thinking those strategies need to be learned in a kata sequence, or applied as such is simply incomplete.

----------------
That adaptation is not necessarily in the Kata, it can't possibly be unless your kata is infinitely long. But the real frame of mind I think dangerous/inadequate is that where you say you "can move back into the kata", you should move into what works, period. If thats a part of some kata-fine, if not-fine. But again this is where tactile sensitivity rules, not pre-thought sequences.

When training there is no choreographed response. The attacker can do what ever he likes. Remember, our training is hands on, not at tournament sparring distance. Nothing works if you are not connected. This is not sparring.

-----

I think this is where we need to define choreography:
-when the defender is anaware of what the attacker will do, but has pre-determined an action or sequence of actions-- that = choregraphy.
- when the defender is aware of what attack is being thrown, but has no predetermined response that too = choreography.
-Last, and most obvious is when all parties know what attack/response will be used, or will be extremely likely to use===choregraphy.

This is not to say that choregraphy as detailed above is bad, quite the contrary, it can be a VERY useful training and progression tool. But, identifiy what your doing, and exactly why you are doing it is key. Claiming to have "no choreographed response", but want to move "back into" to the kata--seem mutually-exclusive? and this could be where our communication breakdown lies?

-----------------------------------------------




You can think what you like. I am telling you there is no choreography in what we do. What you have seen in most bunkai is choreography. There is no choreography in what we do. You are free to do whatever you like .. but if you don't put your arm between me and my target, you will be hit.

That is great, and barring evidence to the contrary I could even take your word for it. No worries.

-----------------


And you are becoming offensive!

My apologies if I've offended you. I only wish to debate the methods and not attack or insult the people, IMO MA'ists should treat each other with a sense of community. Again, my apologies.

Perhaps you have never seen a fighting system performed this way. I was only introduced to it three years ago and up until then only had a vague idea it even existed.



I gaurantee you I've seen fighting systems/styles performed and taught this way before. I've also seen, learned, and taught how to apply that same material in a better way. I've also after friendly demos (some non-avoidably unfriendly) caused numerous highly ranked karateka to abandon their old training completly, or near completely. Most wishing they could undue years and years of bad training and mechanics. Hindsight is always 20/20, and in life I don't think anyone has perfect vision.


Might I ask where you have seen this system demonstrated. if you haven't seen this system then your comments are totally out of line. Then perhaps you could show us an example of the 'better way' you mention.
--------------
First please define "THIS" system, and if its very unique, I have not seen it demonstrated beyond the video you have linked. Without a name / link / video, how can I be expected to know more than what I have learned / miscontrued through you or seen on that clip and read in your profile?

If you would like to have me show you a "better way" I would be happy too. I am not here to be a jerk, or a mouthboxer , but so share and learn. If I end up learning something from you, great, vice verse, great!!

If you could video a specific principle or method, or kata section, also explaining how you are applying it and why, and how it fits into your overall training strategy I will respond with a video in kind demonstrating what I believe to be a "better way", I have a good video camera and tripod. I only believe in constructive criticism, what better than a video demo of it, welcome on both sides; not as good as in person, but something..

(choreographed work is a welcome for comparison, it can serve to flatten the variables such as relative conscious or unconscious cooperativeness of "opponent", reaction times which can be inherently different, and makes it more about the style than the individual (in part)).

-----------------------
Of course Id prefer using other material which is far superior as a starting template - the reverse punch for example is an example of mal-training (along with much kata content).

??? Come on. What a load of ..... ! Are you really trying to tell us that a front punch is more powerful that a reverse punch? And the kata content? And you claim to instruct in TCMA? Our kata came from Kung fu.

First, I never mentioned "front punch", the term is overly broad, and done in a certain manner is no more powerful or efficient than a reverse punch. Alternatively a traditional reverse punch altered to take into account better use of centripetal, centrifugal force, torque, and better structure, can too be affective--but at that point I would cease to call it a traditional reverse punch.

Second, the kata content can be Mal-training if it is very stop/start, pre-planned, or poorly constructed to bridge between methods among other things...

You alluded earlier to not question the wisdom of the old katas. Why not return from whence the art came? I just think its ironic you would mention it...and yes I am "technically" a TCMA instructor, but I don't teach TCMA in any pure or traditional fashion, I teach only practically, and/or to the goals of my students or training partners.

-------------------



But, you are right in that I do mean to dynamically change to another technique, just that that technique is the next step in whatever kata I am using. The kata is a 'fail safe'. If the first move fails, move to the next. The next move in the kata gets you out of trouble.

Its not really "dynamic" if your are going to the next step in whetever kata you are using, I can gaurantee you that there will be a situation where the next move in whatever kata you are doing will not help you, or will not be the most optimal move at least. If your next reason is well--it could be a different move in the sequence...then there really is no "kata" sequence being used, merely an isoloated techniqe.



Once again, you have not understood anything of the training I have described.


Then please point out the error in my language/understanding as worded above instead of a a mere condescending and conclusionary statement.

--------------------------------------

The kata may feel like a failsafe, but no pre=programmed response (especially one as a sequence) is a good failsafe plan. This is no "fail safe" plan for the reccord, especially one that involves using the next move in a sequence.

However, if you haven't trained it that way it is no better than the best box of bits and pieces and no instruction book. And that is how I think you are viewing kata. As a big box of individual pieces. If kata was really like that, why were the secrets so jealously protected?

I understand kata is not a big box of individual pieces, I give kata more credit than that! In fact, going to your instruction book idea-- I would liken each individual movement in a kata a potential "book index" for a multitude of methods/respones/martial actions, etc. The map is not the territory however, learning the map, the index, and the content is the begging--and could be a LONG discussion--not to mention applying the "book" real time is a disscussion that could go for volumes.




And I also shared the same limited understanding for 20 or more years.

Again, you are assuming your understanding is still not limited. I always assume my understanding is still limited in some contexts, just not here unless its regarding something unique to your system I have yet to see or read about....

You have also failed to explain how anything I mentioned is "limited", plus, my language was vague, one could make many bad assumptions based on a brief analogy/metaphor such as above.
-----------


. :asian:

 

[Supra Vijai]

The way we teach bunkai does not rely on the attacker doing anything after the initial attack. Everything after that is a 'predetermined' response.

I know I bowed out of this conversation a couple of days ago but it's been a fascinating exchange. Just a quick question about this that's been nagging at me, more so for my own understanding. I take the bolded part to mean that you don't expect the attacker to follow an initial attack with a pre-determined sequence of moves; as opposed to saying the attacker won't do anything after the first attack is thrown? In other words, you treat your kata training more in the sense of Randori? As for pre-determined response, that part I don't get at all. With us, Mushin (no mind) is a big component of our training and we are taught to not have any preconceptions or pre-determined motions in mind but to rather read the situation dynamically and flow as required adapting what we do as the situation changes. Having a pre-determined response at least as I understand it, goes directly against Mushin?

K-man I know the esteem in which my instructor holds you and I know that's no small thing so I defer to your experience and understanding of the arts. Gary, I have no reason to doubt you are who you say you are or to doubt your experience until someone proves otherwise so again I don't presume to know more than you or speak for you. That said, it does seem to me that you are both essentially saying the same things, just in different words. K-man, your approach to kata being used in self defense as I perceive it is not saying that "Kata A" performed in it's entirety as it was originally designed is the perfect response to a modern street assault. It seems to be more that in a modern assault situation, you will move freely from Kata A to Kata B etc as the situation dictates, taking elements from each to handle the situation. Would that be correct?

Gary, as for yourself, it seems to me that you are wording it more like I am used to where we broadly say that Kata is not the be all and end all for self defense but the lessons contained within are more than applicable. The main issue here - aside from the insults whether intentional or otherwise - seems to be the use of the word Kata.
One side uses the term to cover all lessons and includes the freedom to "cherry pick" so to speak, moves from different Kata whereas the other is using Kata to describe a strict sequence of movements or attacking and defensive rythms that must not be deviated from. Ignoring that distinction, both camps seem for the most part, to be in agreeance that the lessons and strategies contained within Kata are universally adaptable and applicable even in this day and age against a modern style attack. To put it into an example, I have learnt both from being told and from experience that a Jodan Uke (traditional high section block) can be a bit too slow to deal with a modern hook however the principle can be quite easily adapted into a jamming action that is much more gross motor and as a result, reliable under adrenaline. Higher return as we refer to it. From there, we might move into a hundred other things, each of which may come from a different Kata or again be a principle taken from one.

IF I am understanding correctly, K-man you would class that as successfully moving between Kata in a modern context whereas Gary, you would say we don't use specific Kata but rather apply the lessons within. Does that sound about right? Apologies if any of this comes across as presumptuos on my part or if I've completely missed the point. I blame the fact that it is 4:45 am and I've just finished a 12 hour shift if it's any use

Finally, K-man, I just wanted to apologize for not getting in touch with you about Mr. Taira's visit to Melbourne. As mentioned earlier work has been hell with a spate of people calling in sick so I've been working back each night and it doesn't look likely to ease up over the coming week or two sadly. Hopefully the offer to come visit one of your classes is still on offer and I'm able to take you up on it sometime in the near future!

 

[K-man]

I haven't had much time to even think after the last three days of training with Taira Sensei. And still three to go!

I will reply to Gary's post when I have a bit more time. But from Supra, the highlighted quote, in you post above, means that the attacker makes an aggressive move to grab, push or strike (or kick, but that's probably less likely than the others as an initial attack). Now depending on that attack we will react an appropriate way to parry instinctivly and strike whatever is the most available target. Let's say technique '4' in the example I will give shortly.


If we slow the attack down by a factor of ten we can see the initial strike coming. Let's say it is a right hand punch to the head. Without a crystal ball, I have absolutely no idea what my attacker's next intended, or unintended, move might be. He might have been coming in to hit with alternating punches or it might be that he was going to clinch, headbutt and knee. He probably doesn't have the first idea himself what nasty thing he has in mind for me, except he wants to damage me. If he doesn't know what he will do next, how on earth would I? In the real world, I might even have to just cover up and wear a few before I can respond, especially if I was not prepared for the initial assault.

So, mushin is where we're start. We have no preconceived ideas, we don't know what attack, if any, is coming but we are prepared to act instinctively when it does. Our response is likely to be somewhere in one of our kata so without thinking we are 'in' the kata. Instinct and training keeps the kata flowing. We are still in the state of mushin as we are reacting by instinct, not by conscious thought. That would take too long. But the training we do conditions us to deal with the attacker's defensive response instinctively. So really, the mushin you talk of in your training is the same as mine. Just that you are relying on instinct alone for your moves. Your second move will come from your base training, mine is more likely to come from the kata. Same, same.


By kata and kata training I mean everything to do with kata. This includes the kihon form, the advanced form, the 'unpacked' form, the complete two man drill and the individual two man drills (i.e. the smaller 'chunks' of the kata that you would use). The broken up segments are basically ippon kumite. Kata is probably performed at about a quarter of full speed, advanced kata at about half speed and full speed is just that. As fast as you can move. For someone like Taira Sensei, with great fast twitch muscle, the speed becomes a blur. Even if you are watching, it is hard to see what he does until he slows it down.


So, back to my example.


Kata "A" is 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 ......


Kata "B" is 12 - 13 - 14 - 6 - 15 - 17 - 2 - 18 ......


We entered the confrontation in kata "A" with '4'. With luck, '4' might finish the deal but it might have just put me into the position I can finish it with '5'. My opponent might just have been able to block '5' so I now go to '6'. The reason I know I can go to '6' is that my position relative to him is such that he is restricted to just one chance of blocking. One arm is effectively not available for him to use. Therefore what he does is give me a 'predetermined' response. He either gets hit or manages to protect with a move I have trained for, over and over. So now I go to '6'. Same scenario but this time, if he manages to block, I have the 'choice' of continuing '7' in kata "A" or '15' in kata "B". The training makes one move to the next instinctive. It does not mean that it is a 'choice' of '7' or '15', which would be time consuming, but an instinctive response of what is the best attack.


In reality that is more a training option than reality based. In the real situation it would be normally be all over after '6', or '7' if it was needed. However, in training, where we are working at slower speed and drilling, we can just move into and out of different kata.

Now, to look at your discussion of the Jodan uke. You called it a 'traditional high section block'. I don't see it as a block at all. In fact I don't believe there are ANY blocks in karate. What you are doing is 'receiving' an upper attack. So with the response to the hook (right hand), normally I would sway back to allow it to pass, parry with the left hand and either trap or strike with the right. That to me is 'Jodan uke'. Now, I agree that it would not be my first choice against a hook but it is an option.

Now, I'm off for my next session with Taira San. I'll add more later. :asian:

 

[GaryR]

I know I bowed out of this conversation a couple of days ago but it's been a fascinating exchange. Just a quick question about this that's been nagging at me, more so for my own understanding .... As for pre-determined response, that part I don't get at all. With us, Mushin (no mind) is a big component of our training and we are taught to not have any preconceptions or pre-determined motions in mind but to rather read the situation dynamically and flow as required adapting what we do as the situation changes. Having a pre-determined response at least as I understand it, goes directly against Mushin?

Welcome back! I agree with your idea of Mushin, that is what I was talking about.

...

That said, it does seem to me that you are both essentially saying the same things, just in different words. K-man, your approach to kata being used in self defense as I perceive it is not saying that "Kata A" performed in it's entirety as it was originally designed is the perfect response to a modern street assault. It seems to be more that in a modern assault situation, you will move freely from Kata A to Kata B etc as the situation dictates, taking elements from each to handle the situation. Would that be correct?

Nice observation! We very well might be!

Gary, as for yourself, it seems to me that you are wording it more like I am used to where we broadly say that Kata is not the be all and end all for self defense but the lessons contained within are more than applicable. The main issue here - aside from the insults whether intentional or otherwise - seems to be the use of the word Kata.

I agree, I defined kata in my post to address that issue, you and I are on the same page here for sure.


`

...whereas the other is using Kata to describe a strict sequence of movements or attacking and defensive rythms that must not be deviated from.


... both camps seem for the most part, to be in agreeance that the lessons and strategies contained within Kata are universally adaptable and applicable even in this day and age against a modern style attack.

To put it into an example, I have learnt both from being told and from experience that a Jodan Uke (traditional high section block) can be a bit too slow to deal with a modern hook however the principle can be quite easily adapted into a jamming action that is much more gross motor and as a result, reliable under adrenaline. Higher return as we refer to it. From there, we might move into a hundred other things, each of which may come from a different Kata or again be a principle taken from one.

That is a great observation, I believe you are correct, with the caveot that I believe a "strict sequence" def of kata can be as little as two moves that "must" be done in sequence.

IF I am understanding correctly, K-man you would class that as successfully moving between Kata in a modern context whereas Gary, you would say we don't use specific Kata but rather apply the lessons within. Does that sound about right? Apologies if any of this comes across as presumptuos on my part or if I've completely missed the point. I blame the fact that it is 4:45 am and I've just finished a 12 hour shift if it's any use

Spot on, thank you for taking the time to respond after a long day. :bangahead:

 

[K-man]

Hi Gazz. Yes, I do have a real name and some people do use it. However, on the forum I'd rather stick to "K" or K-man. If we correspond by PM I use my real name.

I'm more than happy to engage in robust discussion but we need to be on the same page. I will discuss the merits of what I know, but I don't venture opinion on areas outside my sphere of expertise.

The guy We are training with at present is Masaji Tiara Sensei ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaji_Taira ). He is the most knowledgable martial artist I have ever had the privilege of meeting. I wish I could speak Japanese but, sadly, languages aren't my thing. His top man in this region is my teacher and his credentials are second to none. He is also a Jundokan Senior.

I am not at liberty to post video that I have taken at training but there is a fair amount on YouTube from others. Here is one typical of the training.

Just search "Taira Bunkai".

However, If you are still trying to "interpret" a kata or sequence of kata and force it to work in that form in a dynamic fighting situation, you are simply at a near beginner level, period.

This is where I believe you are wrong. What we are doing is light years from beginner level, even though we feel like beginners at times. If I am at 'near beginner' level then I am proud to be in the company of some of the world's top karateka.

"Deciding" what to use-or more distinctly "acting" or "reacting" -- should be largely based on strategy and tactile sensitivity, not necessarily a "kata" movement or sequence, although on of the former COULD manifest real time, and that should be one of the goals of doing the kata in the first place. Tactile sensitivity offers instant body information related to the opponents power, position, balance, and direction, that kata cannot teach you, this information along with the visual cues (via peripheral vision ideally) allow one to react without thought of any kata, sequence, or particular move.

In our dojo we do a lot of 'sticky hands' and sensitivity drills. We carry that through into strikes, locks and takedowns. Basically it is like a form of Chi Na. Tactile sensitivity to me is the 'soft' of Goju. So, although it is not kata itself, we move into kata bunkai from the sensitivity drills. While you say kata can't teach you about your opponent's power, position, balance and direction, it actually does when you move into the bunkai.

Kata is merely a component of a fighting system, and its also a widely outdated and poorly used component

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I believe it is totally wrong. I repeat what I said above "In a real engagement it (kata) will work extremely well if you have been taught to use it that way."
you obviously have not been taught to use it that way. You are right when you say it is poorly used.

First question; Have you ever used your kata in a real situation? If so how many moves/sequence? How did it resemble or not resemble your perfect ideal form/application?

I agree with you here in a bigger way than you may think, a "method" or "principle" or heck even a specific "technique" MAY and SHOULD work and manifest extremely well under duress, if you have trained in the proper contexts. It sounds like your group is likely training in a more realistic context than most, I can see that from the clip.

However, I am not wrong in saying that kata is merely a component of a fighting system, unless you include in the definition of kata two person drills, sparring, adrenal stress training, ground fighting, weapons (practical) training, etc. etc. Kata as a solo form by itself is incapable of being a complete system.

I have never had to use kata in a real situation because I have only been studying it for the past few years. My last altercation was many years ago and it left my assailant on the floor in less than a second. Not that I'm proud of that because in hindsight it probably was avoidable.

I believe that in centuries past kata was a family's fighting system, passed down through the generations. As you say, here are many other things involved in training, but it is the kata that is the system. So yes, I do include the two person drills etc. Getting back to the initial statement. Kata in normally to poor relation when it comes to karate training, but we are working hard to change that perception. It is not outdated but it is poorly used and even more poorly understood.

What do you mean by angles? Angles of your body--Angles of attack/defense, angles relative to the opponent/movement, all of the above? If so -solo Kata, or practicing such forms will only give you angle of technique, but not relative to an attacker in a dynamic way.

The angle or direction in the kata gives you the angle that you are to your attacker. It may be you are in front, beside behind or 45 deg relative to him.

No, the angle or direction of the kata gives your the angle you are relative to yourself, thin air, etc. NOT relative to a real attacker (unless of course they are present).

Once again, this is your opinion. If you can see how the angles portrayed in kata are used, that is your problem.

You probably meant to type "can't" above. Of course I can see how the angles protrayed in a kata are used, that doesn't change the fact that Timing, positioning, and movement while doing a solo form are potentially very different than reality. I agree the form can train in the angles of attack / defense, ect, but all is relative, I want to be at the most advantageous angle to my opponent regardless of consideration for any kata sequence in the process.

This was not my opinion, this is an objective fact; "see[ing]" how the angles are used in a kata are not the same as actually applying the angels relative to an opponents unanticipated movement real-time.

To me, the angle portrayed in the kata is extremely relevant and it relates directly to an opponent once that opponent is engaged. Remember, we don't do any 'sport sparring'. Our sparring is to move in, engage and not disengage. If we were to disengage you would be right in referring to an opponent's 'unanticipated movement'. However when we are controlling our opponent we know exactly where he is.

I will close this post and address the remaining issues when I have more time. :asian:

 

[K-man]

...From the position you are in you move into the kata and your attacker's response should be what you are expecting. Sometimes that doesn't happen and you then respond in the way that is appropriate to attack and once again depending on where you are you can move back into the kata......

I understand what your saying here, you are simply not using the most optimal training method /mindset, or our communication wires are crossed.

What you are saying is that you know better than the guys who are teaching this method of fighting. I very much doubt that.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I could be wrong, but I HIGHLY doubt it. Perhaps with more video / information / discussion / demonstration I can be shown differently, but like I said its highly doubtful, especially given the breadth and depth of my knowledge and experience.

What Taira Sensai has been trying to do for many years is to restore the kata to the place it used to be before learning kata became like big game hunting. Just another thing to hang on the wall. I can promise you. You do not know better than these guys. You might have similar expertise in your field as I have in mine, but Taira Sansei and his top students are in a different solar system, way ahead of us.

I think this is where we need to define choreography:
-when the defender is anaware of what the attacker will do, but has pre-determined an action or sequence of actions-- that = choregraphy.
- when the defender is aware of what attack is being thrown, but has no predetermined response that too = choreography.
-Last, and most obvious is when all parties know what attack/response will be used, or will be extremely likely to use===choregraphy.

This is not to say that choregraphy as detailed above is bad, quite the contrary, it can be a VERY useful training and progression tool. But, identifiy what your doing, and exactly why you are doing it is key. Claiming to have "no choreographed response", but want to move "back into" to the kata--seem mutually-exclusive? and this could be where our communication breakdown lies?

The first point does not compute. Before you are aware of the attack you cannot have a planned response. And, the second point is no better. If I know what the attacker is going to throw, I know what I am going to do in response. But, outside of training, how do I know what an attacker will do? Final point is quite right. That is indeed choreography. The sad part is that ALL bunkai you see normally is choreography. However, it is of the style A does this and B does that. A responds with this and B does that. That might have a place in some training but it has no place in ours.

Perhaps you have never seen a fighting system performed this way. I was only introduced to it three years ago and up until then only had a vague idea it even existed.

I gaurantee you I've seen fighting systems/styles performed and taught this way before. I've also seen, learned, and taught how to apply that same material in a better way. I've also after friendly demos (some non-avoidably unfriendly) caused numerous highly ranked karateka to abandon their old training completly, or near completely. Most wishing they could undue years and years of bad training and mechanics. Hindsight is always 20/20, and in life I don't think anyone has perfect vision.

Might I ask where you have seen this system demonstrated. if you haven't seen this system then your comments are totally out of line. Then perhaps you could show us an example of the 'better way' you mention.
--------------
First please define "THIS" system, and if its very unique, I have not seen it demonstrated beyond the video you have linked. Without a name / link / video, how can I be expected to know more than what I have learned / miscontrued through you or seen on that clip and read in your profile?

If you would like to have me show you a "better way" I would be happy too. I am not here to be a jerk, or a mouthboxer , but so share and learn. If I end up learning something from you, great, vice verse, great!!

If you could video a specific principle or method, or kata section, also explaining how you are applying it and why, and how it fits into your overall training strategy I will respond with a video in kind demonstrating what I believe to be a "better way", I have a good video camera and tripod. I only believe in constructive criticism, what better than a video demo of it, welcome on both sides; not as good as in person, but something..

(choreographed work is a welcome for comparison, it can serve to flatten the variables such as relative conscious or unconscious cooperativeness of "opponent", reaction times which can be inherently different, and makes it more about the style than the individual (in part)).

As you have admitted. You have not seen this system and it is unique. That is what upset me most. That you would make derisive comment without knowing what was in fact being taught. There is limited material available on the web and that will have to suffice.

I would suggest that there are many effective ways of defending against an attack, depending on the martial art you practise. To suggest you have a 'better way' without having seen this type of bunkai is nonsense. As for numerous high ranking karateka leaving their style to do something better, that is exactly what has happened here.

Of course Id prefer using other material which is far superior as a starting template - the reverse punch for example is an example of mal-training (along with much kata content).

??? Come on. What a load of ..... ! Are you really trying to tell us that a front punch is more powerful that a reverse punch? And the kata content? And you claim to instruct in TCMA? Our kata came from Kung fu.

First, I never mentioned "front punch", the term is overly broad, and done in a certain manner is no more powerful or efficient than a reverse punch. Alternatively a traditional reverse punch altered to take into account better use of centripetal, centrifugal force, torque, and better structure, can too be affective--but at that point I would cease to call it a traditional reverse punch.

Second, the kata content can be Mal-training if it is very stop/start, pre-planned, or poorly constructed to bridge between methods among other things...

You alluded earlier to not question the wisdom of the old katas. Why not return from whence the art came? I just think its ironic you would mention it...and yes I am "technically" a TCMA instructor, but I don't teach TCMA in any pure or traditional fashion, I teach only practically, and/or to the goals of my students or training partners.

I would like to know what you see as a 'traditional' reverse punch. Probably it is something we never practise because I believe a lot of martial arts teach a lot of basics badly. However, a reverse punch, done properly, is the most powerful punch.

As for the kata. You say it is Mal-training if it is pre-planned. Kihon kata is performed slow. Is that a problem? I intentionally referred to your TCMA background when I was saying that our kata was derived from Kung fu. The Chinese kata were modified by the Okinawans for whatever reason. We could go back to the original kata if there where someone to teach the applications. I honk that's a pipe dream. It ain't gunna happen, at least in my lifetime.

But, you are right in that I do mean to dynamically change to another technique, just that that technique is the next step in whatever kata I am using. The kata is a 'fail safe'. If the first move fails, move to the next. The next move in the kata gets you out of trouble.

Its not really "dynamic" if your are going to the next step in whetever kata you are using, I can gaurantee you that there will be a situation where the next move in whatever kata you are doing will not help you, or will not be the most optimal move at least. If your next reason is well--it could be a different move in the sequence...then there really is no "kata" sequence being used, merely an isoloated techniqe.

Once again, you have not understood anything of the training I have described.

Then please point out the error in my language/understanding as worded above instead of a a mere condescending and conclusionary statement.

OK, you are right to say there will be a situation where the next move in the kata will not be the optimal one. However, that is not to say it is the wrong one. I don't profess to know the bunkai to all the Goju kata. That will probably take much longer than I have left in this world. However, I do have a working knowledge of a number of the bunkai and so far I have been mightily impressed. Now, as to you saying move to a different step in the sequence, yes it can happen under certain circumstances. I haven't got the time or inclination to go further down that road tonight.

The kata may feel like a failsafe, but no pre=programmed response (especially one as a sequence) is a good failsafe plan. This is no "fail safe" plan for the reccord, especially one that involves using the next move in a sequence.

However, if you haven't trained it that way it is no better than the best box of bits and pieces and no instruction book. And that is how I think you are viewing kata. As a big box of individual pieces. If kata was really like that, why were the secrets so jealously protected?

I understand kata is not a big box of individual pieces, I give kata more credit than that! In fact, going to your instruction book idea-- I would liken each individual movement in a kata a potential "book index" for a multitude of methods/respones/martial actions, etc. The map is not the territory however, learning the map, the index, and the content is the begging--and could be a LONG discussion--not to mention applying the "book" real time is a disscussion that could go for volumes.

And I also shared the same limited understanding for 20 or more years.

Again, you are assuming your understanding is still not limited. I always assume my understanding is still limited in some contexts, just not here unless its regarding something unique to your system I have yet to see or read about....

You have also failed to explain how anything I mentioned is "limited", plus, my language was vague, one could make many bad assumptions based on a brief analogy/metaphor such as above.

I know my understanding is limited. I was in the same rut as everyone else until recently. I failed to understand the relevance of kata because my teachers back in time did not have the knowledge to pass on. The difference is that my cup is empty. I am prepared to go in to fill it with new knowledge. You're saying that your knowledge is limited, but just not here, implies you might not know everything about the martial arts but you do know everything about kata as a fighting system, and it isn't what I say it is. Mmmm! I've studied it and made it my martial art journey. You haven't even seen it and claim you know all about it. Doesn't seem quite right. However, it is food for future discussion. :asian:

 

[Supra Vijai]

K-man, thanks for taking the to reply after what I'm sure was an exhausting couple of days The confusion I had with the term "pre-determined" was addressed extremely well with your example. It's what we strive for as well just with a different terminology. We refer to it simply as managing distance and controlling your opponent or wrapping your opponent in space to get a touch more esoteric. Whilst we focus on this aspect moreso with our traditional work rather than our modern self defense, I can definitely see how you would be able to carry the principles over. Ideally, you handle an attack like a game of chess - at least that's the metaphor I associate with it - wherein you not only make your own moves but also manipulate your opponent into doing what you want them to even if they don't realise it themselves.

When you say " Your second move will come from your base training, mine is more likely to come from the kata. Same, same." I agree that the ideas are the same just with different training methodologies I guess that only makes sense given I am not a Karateka and you do not train in the Takamatsuden arts so comparing our arts to see which is "better" or "more correct" with our terminology or exact approach would be IMO a tad inappropriate as it's not an apples to apples comparison so to speak. I mean even within the Takamatsuden arts, the way we train is different to how members of the Bujinkan would train which would again differ from the Genbukan or Jinenkan. As I see it with my own limited understanding, if something works for you and your style then that is the main thing and that is what you should do. I must admit though that I am more interested now than ever to come watch you train and see your approach first hand. As for the comment on the Jodan Uke, I used the term block as it is commonly used by our students As we are getting further through the ranks, we are being taken through the intricacies of what Jodan Uke actually involves and the idea that every "block should feel as if it is a strike" (paraphrasing a bit here). I do also agree with your defense to the hook, we have covered very similar responses although I have not heard it described as Jodan Uke so that's interesting! All the best for your remaining time training with Taira Sensei!

Gary, no problems about posting, I'm a tad addicted to the forums I'm afraid so I find myself on here when I should probably be sleeping or especially when I should be studying (I have my own exams coming up in a week!) I'm glad my post wasn't too garbled or misinformed so as to paint myself in a less than ideal light though. I realised also I never actually said welcome to MT so "Welcome to MT!". Hope you enjoy yourself here and find some more stimulating and informative conversation/discussion such as this one

 

[GaryR]

Hi Gazz. Yes, I do have a real name and some people do use it. However, on the forum I'd rather stick to "K" or K-man. If we correspond by PM I use my real name.

I'm more than happy to engage in robust discussion but we need to be on the same page. I will discuss the merits of what I know, but I don't venture opinion on areas outside my sphere of expertise.

Cool, perhaps I'll PM you at some point for a real name. Thank you for the discussion, I think we are getting closer to the same page.

The guy We are training with at present is Masaji Tiara Sensei ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaji_Taira ). He is the most knowledgable martial artist I have ever had the privilege of meeting. ...His top man in this region is my teacher and his credentials are second to none. He is also a Jundokan Senior.

I can promise you. You do not know better than these guys. You might have similar expertise in your field as I have in mine, but Taira Sansei and his top students are in a different solar system, way ahead of us.

Well, you can "promise" all you like, certitude does not equate to truth, knowledge or experience. I am sorry if you are in a different "solar system" than Masaji, but I am not. I have reviewed several of his "concepts series" and I can point to several distinct and constructive examples of how he could improve many things, including but not limited too--the use of momentum, weapons (hand), mechanics/physics. But instead of generalizing, let me give a specific example;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRPBINJ1BC0&feature=relmfu

First, I LIKE the initial entry here, the mechanics and motion behind it are good, not perfect, and could be improved. However, but after that entry he is cutting his own momentum, breaking his own structure, and failing to counter the attack concurrently - and when does count its in a rather inadequate / inefficient manner-around 2:16-2:5 is an example--(unless perhaps there was another attacker behind him, but still the last strike/contact could have been better. The whole movement could be improved in the combative context by applying the concept of "stick adhere connect follow" --I would add "destroy" to that list as a concurrent item. Of course you can not always count on "stick adhere, esp. with a fast boxer", but one can still better use mechanics, momentum, and weapons (palm v fist ect.) in the above example.

"However, If you are still trying to "interpret" a kata or sequence of kata and force it to work in that form in a dynamic fighting situation, you are simply at a near beginner level, period."

This is where I believe you are wrong. What we are doing is light years from beginner level, even though we feel like beginners at times. If I am at 'near beginner' level then I am proud to be in the company of some of the world's top karateka.

I don't think you are near beginner level, I just think semantics is getting in the way of our discussion (among other things). We can just agree to disagree on forcing kata or a sequence of kata in a dynamic situation (I think it a bad idea, you apparently don't).

Forcing a sequence to work in a dynamic environment does not appear to be what you are doing. Rigidly attempting to apply "kata" IS a begginer thing, as it should be. I think our comm wires are crossed here and our training methods are a bit closer than we think.

In our dojo we do a lot of 'sticky hands' and sensitivity drills. We carry that through into strikes, locks and takedowns. Basically it is like a form of Chi Na. Tactile sensitivity to me is the 'soft' of Goju. So, although it is not kata itself, we move into kata bunkai from the sensitivity drills. While you say kata can't teach you about your opponent's power, position, balance and direction, it actually does when you move into the bunkai.

That is great, sticky hands/sensitivity drills, etc is wonderful, I have liked what I've seen of the "soft" gojo. Re--"It does when you move into bunkai" may be right...but you have to "move into" bunkai, not just stay strictly in the "kata". Hence my point stands, and yours regarding kata here about teaching power, position, balance, is MOOT by your own words.

I have never had to use kata in a real situation because I have only been studying it for the past few years. My last altercation was many years ago and it left my assailant on the floor in less than a second. Not that I'm proud of that because in hindsight it probably was avoidable.

Avoidance is always the best policy, not much fodder for kata discussion, but I'm glad your ok and nobody is in jail.

So yes, I do include the two person drills etc. Getting back to the initial statement. Kata in normally to poor relation when it comes to karate training, but we are working hard to change that perception. It is not outdated but it is poorly used and even more poorly understood.

To me, the angle portrayed in the kata is extremely relevant and it relates directly to an opponent once that opponent is engaged. Remember, we don't do any 'sport sparring'. Our sparring is to move in, engage and not disengage. If we were to disengage you would be right in referring to an opponent's 'unanticipated movement'. However when we are controlling our opponent we know exactly where he is.

I will close this post and address the remaining issues when I have more time. :asian:

I;m glad you include two person drills, this basically puts us close to on the same page at least! I think its outdated in part, and for more reasons I care to get into now, but I do agree it is misunderstood often.

I agree the angle is relevant, it's just not the whole picture. I also agree on control, although good, your teachers could use some improvements--"ting" or listening skill / tactile sensitively is also relevant here (you probably have a different term)

Best,

G.



--------------
I would like to add a disclaimer to the above post and other relevant posts: The clip / teacher depicted is highly skilled, and very likely a highly competent teacher. Karate of this caliber IS very hard to find, as is this approach to application. If someone wanted training in Karate for whatever reason, I would recommend the particular teach, i cannot speak to any others in the organization) The foregoing statements reflect purely my opinion. (I consider Taira Masaji et al to be public figures, and combative viability of martial arts a public concern. My opinions in no way include any malice, and are only meant to discuss the objective material in a respectful fashion.)

 

[K-man]

Well, you can "promise" all you like, certitude does not equate to truth, knowledge or experience. I am sorry if you are in a different "solar system" than Masaji, but I am not. I have reviewed several of his "concepts series" and I can point to several distinct and constructive examples of how he could improve many things, including but not limited too--the use of momentum, weapons (hand), mechanics/physics. But instead of generalizing, let me give a specific example;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRPBINJ1BC0&feature=relmfu

First, I LIKE the initial entry here, the mechanics and motion behind it are good, not perfect, and could be improved. However, but after that entry he is cutting his own momentum, breaking his own structure, and failing to counter the attack concurrently - and when does count its in a rather inadequate / inefficient manner-around 2:16-2:5 is an example--(unless perhaps there was another attacker behind him, but still the last strike/contact could have been better. The whole movement could be improved in the combative context by applying the concept of "stick adhere connect follow" --I would add "destroy" to that list as a concurrent item. Of course you can not always count on "stick adhere, esp. with a fast boxer", but one can still better use mechanics, momentum, and weapons (palm v fist ect.) in the above example.

Ok, now we have something to discuss. Basically the organisation we have joined is a Kenkyukai or 'research society'. It is not 'teaching' but discussing and testing various concepts. Taira Sensei not only demonstrates various techniques and their variation but also demonstrates their limitations and potential pitfalls. Unless you speak Japanese you wouldn't know on the video which is which. In person it is different because you see by his expression what he is demonstrating.

In the training Taira demonstrates something and we play with the concept. We may start with a straight imitation then we tweak it to make it work smoothly for us. Then we build up the speed. Coincidently, we were working on Seipai bunkai yesterday. Any problems we encounter we discuss and Taira gives us options. There is no way you can post a clip, such as you have, and use it to critique his work. And BTW, I have never heard Taira claim what he does is perfect or that his applications work every time. When he demonstrates an application, he also demonstrates where it might be stopped and how to overcome that obstacle. Most times it is with one of the drills we train frequently.

I am sorry if you are in a different "solar system" than Masaji, but I am not.

I recognise my limitations. A quick search of the Internet shows that you do not. Setting youself up as an expert in all styles will not cut the mustard on this forum. :asian:

 

[GaryR]

Ok, now we have something to discuss. Basically the organisation we have joined is a Kenkyukai or 'research society'. It is not 'teaching' but discussing and testing various concepts. Taira Sensei not only demonstrates various techniques and their variation but also demonstrates their limitations and potential pitfalls. Unless you speak Japanese you wouldn't know on the video which is which. In person it is different because you see by his expression what he is demonstrating.

Sounds like a cool society, and great goals. I'm not a newb - I don't need a translation to see the limitiations and pitfalls the man is demonstrating, most communication is non-verbal, and his gesticulations are GOOD. Even discarding that argument as you may--many of my constructive comments / suggestions would stand / help regardless of his explanations for any of those movements.

In the training Taira demonstrates something and we play with the concept. We may start with a straight imitation then we tweak it to make it work smoothly for us. Then we build up the speed. Coincidently, we were working on Seipai bunkai yesterday. Any problems we encounter we discuss and Taira gives us options. There is no way you can post a clip, such as you have, and use it to critique his work. And BTW, I have never heard Taira claim what he does is perfect or that his applications work every time. When he demonstrates an application, he also demonstrates where it might be stopped and how to overcome that obstacle. Most times it is with one of the drills we train frequently.

That sounds like a good training structure start.

You said there is "no way you can post a clip, such as you have, and use it to critique his work" - I did not post a clip relative to this at all, perhaps you said it backwards; you meant to say there is no way I can really critique his work or your style via such clips?? But, semantics aside--as I said, I can and DID constructively critique the clip, but of course that critique only goes so far, seeing is not feeling, plus, teaching and training contexts vary. However, my critique is squarely limited to what I can see, thus I give the benefit of the doubt on many things, I understand the limits between those mediums, but nonetheless my comments stand.

Another point of critique where I am certainly not misconstruing (there is a text explanation) is in the concept 3 vid - he is handing the opponent a fulcrum and a lever, his wrist could be in a better position to distribute incoming force better, etc. There is simply not really a good excuse for planning to do a technique such as this. Closing in on/intercepting an opponent like this on an opponent is great in part, but then giving up structure-not good.

Additionally, one should strive to stay on the "closed side" or "outside" of the opponents guard, this particular sequence seems to transition to the inside on purpose when staying on the outside with a more effective method would be just as simple or simpler. Of course failure points need to be built in, one needs to be able to work inside the guard, and save one's skin in the face of executing a non-perfect techniques, but the sequence shouldn't build in physiological, bio- mechanical, principle of movement inefficiencies. --No offense.

On the positive note --Iif I had to pick out footage I like the most it is from .48-.55 (concepts clip 3), could still use tweaking, but good stuff-especially for Goju. Looks similar to some rou-shou / push hands type stuff when the hands first meet up. Perhaps someone has done a little TaiChi, or it could just be a product of his Judo training, which from the looks of his movement/application --is good.

I recognize my limitations. A quick search of the Internet shows that you do not. Setting youself up as an expert in all styles will not cut the mustard on this forum. :asian:

I recognize my limitations as well, nobody is perfect, as a martial artist one is forever a student.

What "quick search" revealed that I anywhere claimed to be an expert in all styles? That is ridiculous. Its a statement with reckless disregard for the truth.

The posted description of what I teach is only the extent of this bit which has been on my site for a decade or more (the site hasn't been updated in that long as well.): I teach "manly Taijiquan principles and applications, but also includes some principles and techniques taught in its "sister arts" of Baguazhang and Xingyiquan."

The description of what I do on my profile here says I teach a "Mix of Neijia arts, dim-mak & Military Unarmed Combat".

I would say those two descriptions are consistent and definitely doesn't contain any claim to be an expert in all arts.

Your baseless and anonymous defamation won't cut the mustard anywhere. Your won't even share your real name in public. Nor did you take my offer on the video exchange, or address specific points in kind. On the other hand,I am offering to give / giving specific critique and observation to improve your teachers teachers training clip/method/body mechanics-which I'm guessing is "light years" ahead of you. Which means, you should be grateful that I would take the time to discuss and share such info. The tweaks I could offer to Taira in the "seipai" 7 concept vid alone would be well worth their air molecules in gold to someone like him who seeks to (and does i'm sure-"travel world wide") teaching "amazing insights."

As I have said before, and I'll say again (although I saw nobody else of teacher caliber in those clips)--he is excellent. Plus uses at the very least what looks to be the foundation of a realistic approach. For all I know I could teach him my "secrets" and he could come back a week later and kick my ar@# with my own material, that would be wonderful. If we are not going to help one another what good are these forums? These global mediums?

I am not saying his information is non-combat viable, or McDojo material - far from. I think it a worthy template from which to offer advice, help some folks, perhaps learn some stuff along the way (or at least discover/dust off stuff) and work with some kind and potentially wonderfully skilled people.

The first lesson and cup of tea is free, it would be worth your instructors time and/or your instructors instructors time to come see me, and/or exchange methods via video (does your instructor have a current instructional video?)I'd happily demonstrate in person or otherwise time and space permitting, and I'm sure all would have a great time.


regards,

Gary