Martial Arts Based on attacking pressure points

[GaryR]

Take it from someone who used to have the site "www.pressurepointfighting.com" (ridiculous I know): but I have used "this stuff" real time, and taught others to do the same, its not magic and it's certainly not a magic bullet.

Before I go further I just wanted to state my opinion/experience on the theory behind TCM and dim-mak. I think it is basically ancient pseudoscience. There are many correlations between meridian points and vulnerable targets, etc, heck our ancestors weren't completely oblivious to biology on some level. I only like to teach the dim-mak points / target that has an identifiable/known physiological reaction such a strike.

The best way to approach pressure points is to not worry about them until you have otherwise functional skill / techniques. If you have a good instructor / art, then the dim-mak / vital point strikes should be built in as you go--it will simply develop naturally w/practice. Then as the student gains proficiency under pressure the targeting skill can become more refined.

The real key is to be able to find / hit your target in the dark from any point of contact with your opponent. If you move in and intercept a punch for example, from feel you should be able to have the awareness to dynamically and automatically flow into a method that will strike to an effective target, take their center, lock,throw, etc.

Another "secret" to dim-mak, is the ability to put more pounds of force per square inch into your weapon of choice (one-knuck punch, palm heel)-specifically the pisiform bone (spelling?) is useful.

No method/strategy or technique should rely on dim-mak (a specific target) for success, but like i said before it can be icing on the cake, and sometimes, that icing can save your a@@.

G

 

[oaktree]

Hi Gary:

Do you have a clip(s) of either doing any two man applications? Particularly methods starting from a non-push hands/cooperative context???

There exist video of them teaching application but they are known to use Sanshou and Tuishou:

This video was done in my area my teacher and another person hosted Chen Bing at this event I think. Some of my teachers other students went to this but my teacher could not make it. Chen Bing is coming this June i'll ask my teacher if I go if I can record some video similar to this of me and Chen Bing but I can not promise anything.
Chen Bing and Chen Ziqiang compete in this thing:

Chen Ziqiang is the one who is throwing the red one alot.

I can't speak for the Yang generation holders can throw down like most Chen generation holders, But there have been times with 2 different Chen generation holders I have trained with that when some people were disturbing Taiji practice at the park they were ready to throw down.

 

[rickster]

If you grab someone's wrist, the chances are you have shorted out fire and metal points.

From all of my experiences and observations in street/pub brawls, I have yet to see one guy grab another by the wrist.

Fighting happens so quickly, there isnt anytime.

Although I have seen some grab another by the upper arm, or choke, or hair

 

[Tez3]

From all of my experiences and observations in street/pub brawls, I have yet to see one guy grab another by the wrist.

Fighting happens so quickly, there isnt anytime.

Although I have seen some grab another by the upper arm, or choke, or hair

That tends to be more of a male to female thing. Men often grab women by the wrist with the intention of pulling/making them go somewhere.

 

[mook jong man]

From all of my experiences and observations in street/pub brawls, I have yet to see one guy grab another by the wrist.

Fighting happens so quickly, there isnt anytime.

Although I have seen some grab another by the upper arm, or choke, or hair

Well what about a lapel grab , they're pretty common , usually followed by a headbutt or a big right hand.
It's not something I would do but that would be one way to get their wrist, as their hand is grabbing your lapel , as long as your prepared to deflect the strikes that will be coming in at the same time.

 

[K-man]

From all of my experiences and observations in street/pub brawls, I have yet to see one guy grab another by the wrist.

Fighting happens so quickly, there isnt anytime.

Although I have seen some grab another by the upper arm, or choke, or hair

Depends if you are striking or grappling. Arm bars mostly involve the wrist. And, anyone working security will possibly have one hand on a wrist when escorting a patron to the door. Even dealing with someone playing up at a party, where you don't want to hurt them but need control, could involve the wrist.

Then you have the situation when you are taking a weapon. There are lots of occassions you could have hold of a wrist.

 

[rickster]

That tends to be more of a male to female thing. Men often grab women by the wrist with the intention of pulling/making them go somewhere.

I was about to edit and state/include this. Bt the edit feature was not popping up at that moment

 

[rickster]

Depends if you are striking or grappling. Arm bars mostly involve the wrist. And, anyone working security will possibly have one hand on a wrist when escorting a patron to the door. Even dealing with someone playing up at a party, where you don't want to hurt them but need control, could involve the wrist.

Then you have the situation when you are taking a weapon. There are lots of occassions you could have hold of a wrist.

You forgot Law Enforcement.

That said, I used the words "street/pub brawls".
This is a big difference
When a brawl is underway, no one was ever interesting in grabbing a wrist.

 

[K-man]

You forgot Law Enforcement.

That said, I used the words "street/pub brawls".
This is a big difference
When a brawl is underway, no one was ever interesting in grabbing a wrist.

I thought law enforcement might have been covered by security, but, yes. That too.

Actually, in my post I said:
"When we train I get my guys to be aware of the areas to try to hit. There is a mistaken belief out there that you have to hit a tiny spot for PPs to be effective. That is just not right. A lot of the best targets, for example temple or throat, have multiple points. You would be hard pressed to strike there and not activate at least two.

If you grab someone's wrist, the chances are you have shorted out fire and metal points. You don't have to study them, it just happens."

My emphasis was on striking. I added the wrist as an aside to demonstrate that we use pressure points without even thinking about them. I never intended my comments on the wrist to cover brawls. :asian:

 

[GaryR]

Hi Gary:

There exist video of them teaching application but they are known to use Sanshou and Tuishou:

This video was done in my area my teacher and another person hosted Chen Bing at this event I think. Some of my teachers other students went to this but my teacher could not make it. Chen Bing is coming this June i'll ask my teacher if I go if I can record some video similar to this of me and Chen Bing but I can not promise anything.
Chen Bing and Chen Ziqiang compete in this thing:

Chen Ziqiang is the one who is throwing the red one alot.

I can't speak for the Yang generation holders can throw down like most Chen generation holders, But there have been times with 2 different Chen generation holders I have trained with that when some people were disturbing Taiji practice at the park they were ready to throw down.

Ah, THANKS! Cool vids, I believe I have seen the first one before, hence my comment about good movement. I would note that IME/Opinion--the Yang style is seemingly less able to throw down than some Chen stylists. (my background is mostly yang style) Also, you have to realize the percentage of posters who actively and intelligently discuss the topics here online is probably not statistically dis-positive of the state of the art(s) as a whole.

That would great if you could get some Chen bing application footage! It's a little disconcerting that at this point no such footage exists??? Well, getting it will be fun for you at the very least, but hopefully many of us may be able to learn something from it.

However, I am still not convinced by the vids that the two gentleman's combat skill/methods are much if at all superior to Erle's. (but I realize vids can be hard to convey skill through--touching hands w/all for comparison-hopefully in a friendly context)--and real & tested exp. level, can really be the only metrics to know subjectively and semi-definitively the caliber of the "master"s / arts combat viability.

Moreover, there can be a small gradation between two instructors/methods/styles. When skill differential is not so clear cut, the ability to accurately predict which instructor or method is "far superior" or even "superior" is reduced proportionally.

Anyhow, look forward to the clips if you can get them.

Best,

Gary

 

[GaryR]

You forgot Law Enforcement.

That said, I used the words "street/pub brawls".
This is a big difference
When a brawl is underway, no one was ever interesting in grabbing a wrist.

Rickster is right (for the most part). As the saying goes (or at least as my friend Chris McKinley said succinctly- "don't chase a lock"). Why I am asking the question for clips other than the like of the above provided generously, is that I think these rules laid out by ERLE MONTAIGUE (from 1999 at the latest), are words of wisdom;

"Art of Fighting 6/. Never use a lock or hold as your main fighting method.

Locks and holds do not work in a realistic fighting situation. I have discovered this aspect of fighting through my own experiences and from that of others who have survived street attacks. It is all right to use a lock to control an attacker once he has been disabled by using a point strike or some other striking disabling method. However, if you try to use a lock or hold against someone who is trying to harm you, then you will lose the confrontation. This is especially important in the street when it is not usual for only one attacker to be attacking you! In these cases, you would never even attempt to use a lock or hold as his friends would have a chance to attack you at this time. Stun the attacker with a strike to the temple (GB 3) or another vital point, then you are able to take a lock or hold. This is greatly important when fighting against an armed attacker. Most schools will teach that you should grab the hand that is holding the knife or other edged weapon for instance. These methods work fine in the dojo but in reality, you are inviting defeat and or even death to use such methods. You must remember that an attacker, especially one who is holding a knife, must be pumped up in order to have the aggression necessary for such a deadly attack. So grabbing his arm is not going to stop him. In the dojo, you might be able to use a technique such as in (Photo No. 4). But if the attacker is serious about doing you harm, and he knows what he is doing, he will probably make use of his yang energy to rip your hands and arms to shreds before bringing the knife back to kill you. (Photo No. 5). & (Photo No. 6).

In the case of an edged weapon in the art of fighting remember the three words; evade, bump and attack. Without writing a whole book on knife defence it goes something like this.
Evade: He perhaps attacks using a lunge. (The same methods work for any type of weapon attack from anywhere). Using a 'hinge' type of weapon, you move your body out of the way by slightly turning to the side as you slam his arm so hard that it damages his arm bumping his weapon arm out of the way for that split second. (Photo No. 7). Notice that my right palm is already up ready to strike to deadly vital points. In doing this you have done the first two of the words, 'evade' and 'bump'. You have also stuck to the above rules of never backing of and never using a one/two type of method. Your defence has become your attack. Now I am able to strike using deadly methods to points that will either kill or drop him. (Photo No. 8). Then, and only then, when he is down and out should you take the knife. The 'hinge' type of attack is also one of those that will bring up the reptile brain causing your energy to build up to a high level for the final attacks.
Using the reptile brain in the art of fighting works like this, every time you touch the attacker, your own energy will grow causing you to want to continue. Your own energy system will be enhanced by the fact that you are borrowing his energy and sending it back to him. You are using only one bit of energy and recycling it. In this way you do not feel tired having to block, then build up more energy for the next attack etc. Your first lot of energy (Qi) is re-used through the attacker's body draining him of energy and building yours up.

Art of Fighting 7/. Never use pushes or pulls in self-defence.

This may seem contradictory as most people view Taijiquan for instance as having many such techniques. Baguazhang and Xingyiquan (H'sing-I) do not have this idea though. I think that the idea that Taijiquan has many pushes and pulls comes from the incorrect idea that the training method of 'push hands' is in itself a martial art or self-defence art. Or in some way a fighting technique. However, push hands should never be thought of as a fighting art by itself. It is only a training method that teaches us timing, balance and how to move the body when attacked. The attacking methods in basic push hands are only there to take the place of the more realistic types of attack and defence so that the practitioners do not harm each other. So if pushes and pulls do not harm people, why use them for self-defence? The only time you could use a push or a pull is to put the attacker into the line of an oncoming car. The pushes are only there in order to teach the very dangerous dim-mak point strikes inherent in all Taijiquan forms. However, you will still see articles in prominent magazines on so-called Taijiquan self-defence methods and the art of fighting where the practitioner will use a pull or a push to defend against attack! It is my advice to leave a class immediately the teacher begins to teach you to do this is a realistic fighting situation. He is being fraudulent in teaching self-defence that isn't. And it is dangerous for students to have a false sense of security instilled in them by using these inane fighting methods in the class. Sure, they might even work to some small degree in the class, but it's a completely different matter in the street when the attacker is really trying to get you! I have seen teachers teaching small framed women or men to use techniques such as 'Lu' (roll back) in defence against an attacker.
He attacks with a punch so the attackee defends using P'eng. Then she takes the attacker's arm and uses 'roll back' to put him face down in the dirt! Anyone who would use this type of defence for real is inviting disaster. But this all comes about from teachers not knowing the advanced methods of Taijiquan like the 'small frame'. Moves such as 'Lu' (roll back) take on a completely different meaning when used in the small frame mode. If we again take the above scenario when we are attacked by someone with a right straight punch, we might again use P'eng. However, this time we do not move backwards, but rather move our weight forward as we do this thus putting his timing off. Now, in small frame mode we use 'Lu' but very quickly to deflect his power and again as we are still moving forward. We do not use it to pull him forward, only do deflect his energy for a split second, thus causing him to have to try to move back to regain his balance. In this window of opportunity, we should attack with devastating point strikes to vital points on his head and neck, like ST 9 (stomach point No. 9) using the right palm, and next to GB 3 (gallbladder point No. 3, temple) using the right elbow. We could finish this if he is alone by now, and only now, taking him down using our left leg while thrusting the left arm across his neck. Following this with fingers to the eyes while on the ground to completely control him. This last method would of course only be used if you were only being attacked by the one person. "


http://www.taijiworld.com/art-of-fighting.html



Oh, also, to segway back to the wrist control issue: I think Controlling someone can be MUCH MORE DIFFICULT than simply hurting them. Your drunk friend at a party, or the resisting suspect being cuffed, etc. is harder to not damage the more violent he gets. If there are more considerations like: more skilled aggressor, if weapons involved, less reaction time you are afforded by circumstance etc---it all matters.


Best,

Gary

 

[GaryR]

OK, getting back to the OP, the CMAs which contain fighting forms are all based on vital points. As such, the kata brought to Okinawa around the 1800s through to 1900 also were based on the ability to hit those points. So technically, karate is based on vital point striking. Bagua is a classic example of a CMA that targets vital points.

In karate, kata has been mostly relegated to something you have to do for a grading requirement or something used for competition. The application of kata was closely guarded in the early days and now much has been lost. I have been studying the vital points within kata for years and there are many good books available on the subject./QUOTE]

I hope and believe in many cases the CMA forms were based in part on vital points. However, strict use of the "kata" like sequences (Especially when trying for point/vital strikes)--are only setting one up for a dirt nap. (this may not be what the above poster meant specifically...)

Re Dillman, I'm not sure when dillman first went "dim-mak" public, but for Erle it was in 1988, 11 years later he published an encyclopedia... It really doesn;t matter, and I may be wrong..

But my real problem with Karate application of Dim-mak all other things being equal--is the applications are less dynamic, fluid, and potent. Thus, the icing on the cake of a self-defense method that was vital points / dim-mak --is now diminished severely.

An OLD conversation piece from an Erle / Dillman conversation highlights the above:

"... Erle/. How long does it take to teach this stuff to martial artists.


George Dillman/. Martial artists who have been involved in the arts for some time only need about three seminars because they're doing the right moves but with the wrong interpretation.


Erle/. What does one need to train in the techniques.


George Dillman/. The kata will train you exactly as you need to be trained. Everything is hidden in the kata that's all you need. No variations. The kata is the self-defence exactly as in the kata.

..."

http://www.taijiworld.com/george-dillman.html


George Dillman to my knowledge is a nice, and skilled man; but all things are relative, many karate practitioners "advance" to CMA like application after black belt level - why not start earlier, cross train at least!
...

As has been said, if you can't get in and hit, then knowing vital points won't be of much use, but, if you can hit them, they are very effective. That said, we all target vital points every time we fight. Well known vital points include the groin, inner thigh, solar plexus, kidney, suprasternal notch, trachea, side of neck, jaw, temple, eyes, back of neck, etc etc.

Agreed.

Best,

Gary

 

[Supra Vijai]

Most schools will teach that you should grab the hand that is holding the knife or other edged weapon for instance. These methods work fine in the dojo but in reality, you are inviting defeat and or even death to use such methods. You must remember that an attacker, especially one who is holding a knife, must be pumped up in order to have the aggression necessary for such a deadly attack. So grabbing his arm is not going to stop him. In the dojo, you might be able to use a technique such as in (Photo No. 4). But if the attacker is serious about doing you harm, and he knows what he is doing, he will probably make use of his yang energy to rip your hands and arms to shreds before bringing the knife back to kill you. (Photo No. 5). & (Photo No. 6).

Surely you are not saying that controlling the weapon hand of your attacker will get you killed? If so, I beg to differ. Strike to distract or disorient, absolutely. Keep their weapon hand secured at all times though! If you have no control of the weapon and your strike fails due to targeting, adrenaline (yours or theirs), lighting or whatever, the grip you hold on their weapon hand is the only thing saving you from a brutal and immediate shanking. We train "riding" our opponent's resistance so we can aim to minimise having the weapon ripped out of our grip but losing control of the weapon is not an option for us.

George Dillman/. The kata will train you exactly as you need to be trained. Everything is hidden in the kata that's all you need. No variations. The kata is the self-defence exactly as in the kata.

I realise this isn't you but rather a quote you have presented but still, kata is not self defence as it applies in the streets. Regardless of which system you are studying. Martial arts are not modern self defense and Modern self defense (such as RBSD) are not martial arts. They are two distinctly separate animals and need to be treated as such. I agree that there are things hidden in the kata and the principles contained can be adapted for a modern self defense situation. Actually trying to use a kata however is going to end badly. It's set up to deal with entirely different attacks, from different distances, angles etc that simply aren't from this time and place.

 

[GaryR]

Surely you are not saying that controlling the weapon hand of your attacker will get you killed? If so, I beg to differ. Strike to distract or disorient, absolutely. Keep their weapon hand secured at all times though! If you have no control of the weapon and your strike fails due to targeting, adrenaline (yours or theirs), lighting or whatever, the grip you hold on their weapon hand is the only thing saving you from a brutal and immediate shanking. We train "riding" our opponent's resistance so we can aim to minimize having the weapon ripped out of our grip but losing control of the weapon is not an option for us.

I agree in part with you, and from what I've learned from Erle in person-so did he. Ideally one should be able to evade/strike/control arm & weapon, and disable all in one swift move. Ideal, as I think Erle's rule is harping on is often times unrealistic. Counting on it to save your life is reducing your survival % significantly IMO.

But a blade is a contact weapon, not just a stabbing one. A wildly flinging novice with a knife is very dangerous and difficult to wrist grab/control despite any --illusions / lack of proper training/exp.-- about how you may handle such life or death situation. (elbow, shoulder, head, and neck control can be used sometimes to greater affect)

I realise this isn't you but rather a quote you have presented but still, kata is not self defence as it applies in the streets. Regardless of which system you are studying. Martial arts are not modern self defense and Modern self defense (such as RBSD) are not martial arts. They are two distinctly separate animals and need to be treated as such. I agree that there are things hidden in the kata and the principles contained can be adapted for a modern self defense situation. Actually trying to use a kata however is going to end badly. It's set up to deal with entirely different attacks, from different distances, angles etc that simply aren't from this time and place.

I completely AGREE with you here. In fact I think Dillman's last response is ridiculous. Perhaps my post did not make my position clear, it was late at night.

best,

Gary

 

[Supra Vijai]

I agree in part with you, and from what I've learned from Erle in person-so did he. Ideally one should be able to evade/strike/control arm & weapon, and disable all in one swift move. Ideal, as I think Erle's rule is harping on is often times unrealistic. Counting on it to save your life is reducing your survival % significantly IMO.

But a blade is a contact weapon, not just a stabbing one. A wildly flinging novice with a knife is very dangerous and difficult to wrist grab/control despite any --illusions / lack of proper training/exp.-- about how you may handle such life or death situation. (elbow, shoulder, head, and neck control can be used sometimes to greater affect)

Agreed completely about a blade being a contact weapon. If it touches, it cuts. My use of the term shanking was purely for example. Also agreed that while training for an ideal situation and trying to turn every situation into an ideal one is all well and good, sometimes things get out of hand and violence is extremely chaotic. Just to clarify though, we don't pretend we can do all of those things in one move, rather in a situation where outright escape isn't an option, we focus on controlling the weapon (and the arm holding it using gross motor actions) and then from there moving to strike/disarm/disengage safely etc. By no means do we encourage the illusion/delusion that you can cleanly and immediately catch the wrist of a knifeman who is intent on their purpose any more than we advocate catching a fist out thin air! I was just making sure we were on the same page

I completely AGREE with you here. In fact I think Dillman's last response is ridiculous. Perhaps my post did not make my position clear, it was late at night.

All good! I know all too well how easy it is to miss things or not be as clear as I would like to be when all I want to do is go to bed

 

[K-man]

I realise this isn't you but rather a quote you have presented but still, kata is not self defence as it applies in the streets. Regardless of which system you are studying. Martial arts are not modern self defense and Modern self defense (such as RBSD) are not martial arts. They are two distinctly separate animals and need to be treated as such. I agree that there are things hidden in the kata and the principles contained can be adapted for a modern self defense situation. Actually trying to use a kata however is going to end badly. It's set up to deal with entirely different attacks, from different distances, angles etc that simply aren't from this time and place.

Actually Dillman's quote was provided by GaryR, not me. However, that said, I agree 100% with what is quoted. The problem is the teaching, not the kata. If the kata is taught for competition then it is for competition. Simple as that. Most schools require students to learn the mechanical kata for promotion and this is as far as it goes. Even when bunkai is provided it is nothing more than choreography. Attacker does A, you do B. Attacker responds with C, you do D. That is totally wrong, even if the action might represent the kata.

Dillman was the first video I saw of the kata being used he way it was intended. His view is supported in print and video by others such as Iain Abernethy. These people started me examining kata as a fighting system about 5 years ago. Now kata and its bunkai is about 75% of our training. Martial arts are not 'modern self defence' against something like a gun and I haven't actually looked at it in terms of defence against a weapon, but against any form of unarmed physical violence, kata works just fine. The angles are there but the distance is pretty constant. Once you engage, it is hands on until it finishes. The way we teach bunkai does not rely on the attacker doing anything after the initial attack. Everything after that is a 'predetermined' response. Either the attacker blocks or he is hit. If he blocks, the kata continues. If he doesn't block, he gets hit. Simple. In reality the attacker would be lucky to block once, highly unlikely to block twice. To stop three moves at full speed would be virtually impossible. You can enter he kata at any point and you can switch to another kata at many points through a kata if he situation dictates.

For you, it is easy to check it out. Just grab Chris and come over one night and I'll show you, hands on. I'd love to have you guys visit.

Coincidently, arguably the world's top expert on the reality based use of the kata is a guy called Masaji Taira, from Okinawa. He is in Melbourne this weekend and Brisbane and Gold Coast next weekend. He is brilliant. He was the technical adviser at the Jundokan before leaving last year to head a new organisation. I am looking forward to an inspiring few days with him. PM if you are interested. :asian:

 

[Supra Vijai]

Yeah sorry about that! I realised I'd made a mistake with placing the quote tag but it was a few hours later so wasn't sure if editing was appropriate

Interesting points you raise there. I'll definitely have a chat to Mr. Parker about it. My comments were based purely on my own understanding thus far of kata (as they appear in our traditions of course) as opposed to a street assault. I wasn't referring to defending against a gun but against a modern unarmed assault only. Against a gun, I am a strong believer that your best defense is to do what the guy holding the gun asks you to do Also, switching between different kata at will hadn't factored into my reply so apologies for that.

I work graveyards, weekends and other horribly inconsiderate hours at the moment but if I get a night off, I would definitely be interested in coming down and checking out a class! As it is, I'm sorry I missed you when you attended one of our workshops last year. Same goes for this weekend, the offer is highly appreciated, let me check my work schedule and I'll PM you to let you know if I may be able to join - provided it's ok with everyone involved of course.

 

[oaktree]

Hi Gary,

That would great if you could get some Chen bing application footage! It's a little disconcerting that at this point no such footage exists???

Videos of people such as Chen Xiaowang explaining application is there. Chen Ziqiang san shou competition form is out there. So I am not sure what you are asking for.

However, I am still not convinced by the vids that the two gentleman's combat skill/methods are much if at all superior to Erle's

Well you have three different videos: Chen Bing's video is a friendly tuishou match, Chen Ziqiang is a san shou competition and Erle is teaching applications.
Erle has his own critics so I will politely leave it at that. Other Yang stylist have some issues with him and you can search on this forum or on Bullshido regarding it.

Moreover, there can be a small gradation between two instructors/methods/styles. When skill differential is not so clear cut, the ability to accurately predict which instructor or method is "far superior" or even "superior" is reduced proportionally.

Well when you say that he Erle is better than most generation holders in Taijiquan which of course is an opinion, it is a rather bold thing to say.

 

[GaryR]

Hi Gary,



Well when you say that he Erle is better than most generation holders in Taijiquan which of course is an opinion, it is a rather bold thing to say.

Hello, I'll get to more points/post responses when more time, I just wanted to clear up that you have taken my words out of context / misquoted me, I stated re Erle in general comparison;

--"He wasn't perfect, he never pretended to be, but I'd put his material against most "master level" TaiChi lineage queens/holders any day of the week."--

Putting his material "against", is not the same as saying "better" or "far superior" as you inferred, I would say its "as good as" at least, and possibly better in some respects, but the jury is out on how many / and how/why, those are all good points of discussion, vids help...hence asking, links are helpful. As is respectful discussion.



Best,

G

 

[GaryR]

..., but against any form of unarmed physical violence, kata works just fine. The angles are there but the distance is pretty constant. Once you engage, it is hands on until it finishes.

Kata DOES NOT work just fine, in and of itself, nor do cookie cutter techniques and kata forms apply well in a real engagement.

What do you mean by angles? Angles of your body--Angles of attack/defense, angles relative to the opponent/movement, all of the above? If so -solo Kata, or practicing such forms will only give you angle of technique, but not relative to an attacker in a dynamic way.

Find a grandmaster or blackbelt etc who has solo kata experience alone, -and I likely won't have to put my tea down to handle them. (with no malice and in a friendly fashion of course).

.The way we teach bunkai does not rely on the attacker doing anything after the initial attack. Everything after that is a 'predetermined' response. Either the attacker blocks or he is hit. If he blocks, the kata continues. If he doesn't block, he gets hit. -

I like the not relying on the attacker doing anything after the initial attack, but you lost me on the rest. Initially you should have the intent to eliminate the threat to yourself in the most efficient / safe / legal manner, while moving into strike for example you are not anticipating any specific response, but your training should have built in some auto-reactions to a multitude of responses, and should be automatic under-duress.

Trying to have "Predetermined responses" can be suicide. Of course at first, techniques, kate movements ect. are taught and executed as pre-determined responses to pre-determined / anticipated attacks. This is only step 1 (if you are lucky to move beyond kata).

Trying to "continue" the kata in a real time situation is ridiculously stupid (nothing personal) - perhaps you did not mean it in this way, and I am mis-reading you, the net is imperfect in that way...Now if you mean - dynamically change to another technique that is contained in A kata (but in no particular sequence) - then I would agree, I just didnt read that from your post....

.Simple. In reality the attacker would be lucky to block once, highly unlikely to block twice. To stop three moves at full speed would be virtually impossible. You can enter he kata at any point and you can switch to another kata at many points through a kata if he situation dictates.

You may be right, with a properly executed defense/attack / or as I say "counter offensive tactics", should should get through quickly, in fact, you should get through instantly (around a 1 count), or NEAR that instantly, if your not--find a new teacher. (this of course does not apply if your training partner/opponent is REALLY skilled, more back and forth would be expected) - but it still has to be trained for, and built into your system/style.

AHA, so perhaps before I was so harsh I should have read more carefully, it seems as though you may be saying that you "can enter a kata at any point" , so basically pick any technique or sequence thereof, and "switch to another kata at many points" --these two conditions together lead me to believe (giving you the benefit of the doubt) that you are simply saying --- One should use any technique / method from any kata at any time as the situation dictates.

Anyhow, even if the above doesn't apply to you, perhaps it will get the point across to someone who needed to hear it.

In the broader sense I think the idea of "kata" is outdated, in a sense it was used (among other things) to catalog moves before the days of video. Using a long sequence of moves is unrealistic. While it can serve as a memory device and help string together moves, many forms are not so well conceived. One is better off learning a principle of self-defense/attack/movement, and then learning to execute that principle dynamically in numerous ways.(After/during learning bio-mechanical and movement principles)

Many teachers do it the other way, they teach 100 techniques to give the student 1 principle. The only kind of "form" or "kata" one should be doing if their only goal is self-defense (or they do not want to detract from that goal too much with Mal-training) - should be SHORT, FLUID, and VARIABLE motion/method drills. Then,they can then be spontaneously strung together during a fight, and during practice, it is quite fun, and free flowing, and makes great fodder for two man drills.

Best,

Gary





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