Martial Arts Based on attacking pressure points
- Thread starter brmoore134
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OK, getting back to the OP, the CMAs which contain fighting forms are all based on vital points. As such, the kata brought to Okinawa around the 1800s through to 1900 also were based on the ability to hit those points. So technically, karate is based on vital point striking. Bagua is a classic example of a CMA that targets vital points.
In karate, kata has been mostly relegated to something you have to do for a grading requirement or something used for competition. The application of kata was closely guarded in the early days and now much has been lost. I have been studying the vital points within kata for years and there are many good books available on the subject.
As MJS said, it is called Kyusho in Japanese or Dim Mak in Chinese. These are not styles of MA but a part of them. Evan Pantazi and his colleagues have an organisation called "Kyusho" and have produced some really interesting material. Perhaps the first Westerner to popularise vital points was George Dillman and he too has some excellent books available. (Yes, I know he is looked down on here for NT KOs but credit where credit is due.) The late Erle Montaigue is another who has produced excellent reference material.
As has been said, if you can't get in and hit, then knowing vital points won't be of much use, but, if you can hit them, they are very effective. That said, we all target vital points every time we fight. Well known vital points include the groin, inner thigh, solar plexus, kidney, suprasternal notch, trachea, side of neck, jaw, temple, eyes, back of neck, etc etc.
the encyclopedia of dim-mak is the best reference guide. It also has application and healing for all points. It's big id get the harcopy.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Dim-Mak-Encyclopedia-Main-Meridians/dp/0873649230
the best arts to apply dim-mak with are the internal Chinese arts, not because of "Qi" though. the strikes should be into the methods, and if groom ht them it is icing on the cake. To practice a BOB is helpful at first, an two partner work with chalk and a red suit that's a story for another day.
Best Gary
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
some of the reviews on amazon there aren't too flattering.
One of the reviewers is Lawrence Kane, another whose opinion I respect. He gives it 5 stars.
I have a number of Erle's DimMak books, although not this one, and they are very good. The greatest value from a karate perspective is that you can determine the points that are being targeted in the kata and the kata gives you the sequence.
I also have some of Erle's video and, once again, I think it is really good information. :asian:
oaktree
Master of Arts
As I have said before, Most professors teaching in China on Chinese medicine dismiss the notion of Dian xue or Dim mak they believe it belongs in the realm of movies.
Of course the points used in Dian xue would heal you because they are either 1.on one of the Jingluo channels or 2.an ashi point meaning sore point not on one of the Jingluo.
In Taijiquan,Baguazhang and Xingyiquan I have not read about Dian xue, but I have read about masters of those styles hitting someone really hard.
WC_lun
Senior Master
Most TCMA I've come across have pressure points, both strikes and grabs, in thier system. Keep in mind that pressure point usage is a tool of a system, not a stand alone martial art at all. The main reason for this is because pressure points are never the same on each individual you will encounter. Due to muscle coverage, on some people they will be deeper, meaning harder to activate. Others, due to difference in growth, will be in slghtly different spots. On pressure points, being off even a little can render a spot ineffective. You do not have the luxary to feel your way to it, as you would in Chinese medicine. Also, some of the points used for pain initiation just are not effective on some people with higher pain tolerances.
Given all the above, initiating pressure points can be very helpful and effective in martial arts. Though you must know the limitations as well. To think you can read a book and then be able to defeat anyone with a couple of touches is fantasy. Fun to think about until you rely on it to save your backside.
Given all the above, initiating pressure points can be very helpful and effective in martial arts. Though you must know the limitations as well. To think you can read a book and then be able to defeat anyone with a couple of touches is fantasy. Fun to think about until you rely on it to save your backside.
First statement is a bit hard to prove or disprove.
Second observation ... just do a google search.
I feel that it is important to differentiate between the nerve points that you are referring to and the blood points.
That said, in an altercation, if you can strike the right area you are going to achieve a better outcome. If you don't even try to hit those places then I don't believe you are using your martial art skills. All traditional MAs target vital points. :asian:
mook jong man
Senior Master
They work pretty well on the ground , pressing the tip of your thumb into that one just beneath the ear as you bridge and roll can help get someone off of you when other stuff fails.
Supra Vijai
Black Belt
I was recently talking to someone about pressure point fighting - it was most likely Mr. Parker but the exact memory eludes me - and I heard the best response "anywhere I hit you is a pressure point"
I like the acknowledgement from Lawrence Kane about the difficulty of using pressure points in a real fight under the effects of adrenaline when things are tensing up and moving points around or blocking them off. Another thing I got out of that chat was the real, practical use of learning about pressure points outside of acupuncture - you are learning targeting! When things get a bit more serious though and I'm not thinking clearly and logically, I'd rather stick to gross motor survival grips or flesh grabs to buy me time rather than relying on fine motor skills to hit, let alone find specific points.
I like the acknowledgement from Lawrence Kane about the difficulty of using pressure points in a real fight under the effects of adrenaline when things are tensing up and moving points around or blocking them off. Another thing I got out of that chat was the real, practical use of learning about pressure points outside of acupuncture - you are learning targeting! When things get a bit more serious though and I'm not thinking clearly and logically, I'd rather stick to gross motor survival grips or flesh grabs to buy me time rather than relying on fine motor skills to hit, let alone find specific points.
WC_lun
Senior Master
Having solid structural integrity in a strike or hold is just as effective as a pressure point technique...in some cases more effective. As I said, pressure points are a tool, like any other. They are also a tool that becomes more difficult to use while under the effects of adrenaline. Then take into consideration your opponent is under the effect of adrenaline too...and maybe drugs. So many things become more important than hitting or pressing that right spot.
Depending on pressure points alone, is like depending upon a hammer or a screw driver to be the tool to use to fix your car. Might be right, but might not be.
I learn Aikido from a guy who uses pressure points and vital points all the time. The funny thing is, he has never studied or been taught them. He even claims he doesn't use them. The fact is, he is using the proper technique of his craft. He doesn't need lessons to instinctively know where to hold or where to hit because that is his training. What I have found in karate is total ignorance of where to hit. It is as easy to hit the right spot as it is to hit the wrong spot but if you have never been shown the right spot in the first place, then you are miles behind. When we train I get my guys to be aware of the areas to try to hit. There is a mistaken belief out there that you have to hit a tiny spot for PPs to be effective. That is just not right. A lot of the best targets, for example temple or throat, have multiple points. You would be hard pressed to strike there and not activate at least two.
If you grab someone's wrist, the chances are you have shorted out fire and metal points. You don't have to study them, it just happens. From there the kata show us the correct target for the strike. If you have been instructed properly this should be part of your instruction. Unfortunately I didn't get shown any of it in my original training because it was a sport based style. Even now there are few Western instructors around who have the knowledge to teach PPs. Even fewer teach the link between kata and vital points. Sad really. :asian:
If you grab someone's wrist, the chances are you have shorted out fire and metal points. You don't have to study them, it just happens. From there the kata show us the correct target for the strike. If you have been instructed properly this should be part of your instruction. Unfortunately I didn't get shown any of it in my original training because it was a sport based style. Even now there are few Western instructors around who have the knowledge to teach PPs. Even fewer teach the link between kata and vital points. Sad really. :asian:
oaktree
Master of Arts
Hi K-man,
I don't dispute that in Internal Chinese arts we look/create openings and strike what is open even if it not a vital point which may allow us just enough time to use Qinna or Shuaijiao. Internal artist that I know do not spend to much time overly complicating things focusing on striking the arm to cause it to stop moving. We spend more time
focusing on sticking, feeling, following, rooting, developing the feel of fajin. So yes we hit vital points but we also look at what is available to us and adapt the situation accordly
no we do not practice death touches and that line of thinking belongs in movies.
Anyway just my opinion
The statement I made was during a class on Acupuncture in Guangzhou university of Chinese medicine in which a student asked a question about Dian xue being used to kill people. The response was the professors response in regards to the common perception of it.
Alot of it comes back to Erle for Taijiquan. But alot of statements like this give Dian xue its stigma:
-http://www.taiji-bagua.co.uk/contents/bagua.htm
I don't dispute that in Internal Chinese arts we look/create openings and strike what is open even if it not a vital point which may allow us just enough time to use Qinna or Shuaijiao. Internal artist that I know do not spend to much time overly complicating things focusing on striking the arm to cause it to stop moving. We spend more time
focusing on sticking, feeling, following, rooting, developing the feel of fajin. So yes we hit vital points but we also look at what is available to us and adapt the situation accordly
no we do not practice death touches and that line of thinking belongs in movies.
Anyway just my opinion
OK. I think we are at cross purposes here. I'm talking about using points in grappling or striking that give me an advantage in a confrontation. I'm not looking for a combination of points that will kill someone now or in two weeks. That is probably possible but the reason is probably straight forward in that there is underlying organ damage which, if not treated, will lead to organ failure and death.
I'm talking of using points in grappling where you can use the point of an elbow to cause a release, or a point to control someone, or a point on the skull to cause an easy KO, using the right place to grab, etc.
Now, WRT your reference. There are many things there that I would question especially the references to Qi. I'm not sure that the content was Erle's, as it is not what I have seen and read in some of Erle's books and DVDs. Apart from that, what on the page did you find offensive?
The tracing of the history of bagua back to Dong is interesting. It implies that he developed the theory of Dian xue but the use of vital points in fact goes back much further. However, that really is no different to saying karate was developed by Sokon Matsumura. It all goes back to Kung Fu and the kata that were contained within. Those kata all target vital points, just that they aren't normally taught that way, for a variety of reasons. :asian:
Well, It's still probably by a large degree the single best reference available on the topic, complete with diagrams and martial application, etc. But a book only goes so far, Eli (Erles son) I'm sure still sells the DVD's, Dim-mak a-z series, etc. Learn, try, then judge for yourself...
Of course I must disclose my bias, I was certified as an instructor under Erle (RIP) over a decade ago, he was a wonderful man, and left behind volumes of material to learn from. He wasn't perfect, he never pretended to be, but I'd put his material against most "master level" TaiChi lineage queens/holders any day of the week.
Best,
G
I would not use the term "far superior". From what I've seen (not in person) of the two referenced gentlemen (if memory serves) --they have great movement, and tui-shou ability at the very least.
Do you have a clip(s) of either doing any two man applications? Particularly methods starting from a non-push hands/cooperative context???
As an aside, teachers and systems vary in strengths and weaknesses. I wouldn't sign up for a TKD class and expect to learn good grappling or blade-work for example.
best,
Gary
